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[SURVEY] 

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How would YOU rate RATE Clint Barton, Hawkeye I -as an Avenger- from 1 to 10



Optional QOTM's:
1. What do you recall as your favorite Hawkeye shot and/or scene and/or issue (in any medium)?
2. Which issues can you cite that he said "I QUIT!"?
3. How much do you want Kate Bishop to relinquish the codename?
4. What is a question about Hawkeye that you would enjoy to hear AMB answers about?



Previous Ratings:
Spider-Woman I.
Mockingbird.
Shang Chi.
Beast.
Tigra.
Dr.Strange.
Justice.
Mantis.
Jocasta.
Wasp.
Namor.





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America's Captain 

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Posts: 11,531



    Quote:
    How would YOU rate RATE Clint Barton, Hawkeye I -as an Avenger- from 1 to 10


I think I would have to rate him a 10. He was the perfect Avenger. Even his imperfections were perfect. His insecurities. His hot temper. His cynicism. His grandstanding. We watched him actually evolve as a character.

Many of the great Marvel heroes are seeking redemption. Peter Parker, Stephen Strange, Tony Stark, even Reed Richards in so far as he feels guilt over Ben's unsightliness. Hawkeye, too, spent a long time in a redemption arc, with Captain America as the catalyst. The relationship between these two men, developed over many issues, is one of the high water marks of superhero writing at any company in any era.

And then we had his relationships with women, beginning with his almost Shakespearean doomed love with the Black Widow, followed by his fruitless quest of Wanda, continuing on through various other fruitless courtships, and then came Mockingbird and the various highs and lows of that romance.

We saw him as a Defender - we saw him as a Thunderbolt - yet somehow he was always an Avenger.

As a kid he wasn't always a favorite of mine, because he wasn't very powerful. But as I matured, I realized what he represented. Even more than Captain America, he was the guy with no powers who dared to go up against any threat no matter how huge. I never really perceived Captain America as having no powers. There was always something about him that seemed more than human, even if it couldn't readily be quantified. Hawkeye never seemed anything but human. Yet there he always was. All hell was raining down upon the earth, and staring it down was this guy with a bow and arrow who didn't flinch.


    Quote:
    Optional QOTM's:
    1. What do you recall as your favorite Hawkeye shot and/or scene and/or issue (in any medium)?


Avengers #109. The issue with Imus Champion. Hawkeye quits the team at the end. If I'm not mistaken, this sets him up for joining the Defenders just in time for the Avengers/Defenders War.


    Quote:
    2. Which issues can you cite that he said "I QUIT!"?


#109. Sad to say that's all I got.


    Quote:
    3. How much do you want Kate Bishop to relinquish the codename?


She can keep it. The poser pretending to be Clint nowadays is not Clint so who cares?


    Quote:
    4. What is a question about Hawkeye that you would enjoy to hear AMB answers about?


Who are all the women he has had romances with?






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102



I hate Hawkeye. But he gets a 10.

All of the other Avengers have lives that get in the way of them being effective Avengers but the one important thing in Hawkeye's life is that he's an Avenger. Friends, lovers, family members...he'll sacrifice every one of them to sate the Avengers and their legacy.

Even if his wife is raped and lets her rapist die he'll represent the Avengers moral standard and shame her for it. When a robot mind wipes out trillions of Kree lives he will refuse to kill said robot mind. Even when he's on sabbatical from the group he will force himself on a team of hardened criminals and train them up the Avengers way...using lies and offers of presidential pardons.





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emerick-man 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 60,441




    Quote:

      Quote:
      4. What is a question about Hawkeye that you would enjoy to hear AMB answers about?



    Quote:
    Who are all the women he has had romances with?


Always a good Avengers question in general! You'd probably have to add to the 2009 linked list below: Scarlet Witch and Spider-Woman fer sher. Must be a couple more? Don't recognize "Eden".

> Century's favourite thread--the Avengers Sex List!
> https://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?msg=avengers-2009022105182187
> Hawkeye: Eden, Black Widow, Mockingbird, Maryanne Sherbrook, Wasp and possibly Moonstone (Songbird's accused her of sleeping with him, and she didn't deny it), Shelia Danning and Marcella Carson are all possibilities as well. (evidence, anyone?) Shelia is probable, since she was hired to seduce Hawkeye as a distraction, and he seemed to have fallen very hard for her. (3+?)

Related:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/hawkeye/4005-1475/forums/who-is-the-best-girl-friend-of-hawkeye-1453997/

It will be interesting if 616-Marvel ever hooks him up with his movie moglie: Mrs. Laura Barton.
http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Laura_Barton


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The Black Guardian

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Edited with a note that I really can't stand him since he broke with Bobbi.

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 24,705


10.

IMO, There are the Big Three (Steve, Tony, Thor), and then there's Clint. No one ranks as high... and he might even outrank them.

But the only time I've been able to stand him is from his 80s mini till he betrayed Bobbi after her ordeal.

The only question I can answer is #3: I want Kate Bishop dropped from the tallest building with nothing to stop her fall.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:

    I hate Hawkeye. But he gets a 10.



    Quote:
    All of the other Avengers have lives that get in the way of them being effective Avengers but the one important thing in Hawkeye's life is that he's an Avenger. Friends, lovers, family members...he'll sacrifice every one of them to sate the Avengers and their legacy.



    Quote:
    Even if his wife is raped and lets her rapist die he'll represent the Avengers moral standard and shame her for it.


God. How many of these damn rape stories were there? I presume this was Mockingbird? Somehow I managed to avoid these stories. Which I'm grateful for. I would be very happy if the word "rape" or the depiction thereof never appeared in another superhero comic till the end of time.


    Quote:
    When a robot mind wipes out trillions of Kree lives he will refuse to kill said robot mind.


Partly because he will generally side with Cap, and Cap is one of the no-kill boy scouts, along with Peter Parker, Clark Kent, and Bruce Wayne. I wish stories where these moral questions are pushed to the extreme would not be told. They're not really stories. They're philosophical thought experiments dressed up as fiction. In this case it was absolutist morality versus utilitarianism. Almost everyone has a number of potential victims which, when that number is reached, will drive them to agree the potential perpetrator should be killed. For most of us that number will be something like two, three, or four. Make it thousands and the decision becomes easy. Millions and it becomes self-evident. Billions and the contrary decision becomes absurd. Trillions and the person pushing for absolutist morality seems actually to be a threat to life in general and may actually deserve to die for upholding a philosophy too anti-life to be tolerated by the living. So of course Cap is made to be that person and Hawkeye is made his enabler because Hawkeye will almost always be Cap's enabler.

Some stories simply shouldn't be told. A lot of the foregoing was rehashed in another thought experiment dressed up as fiction, in this case Hickman's Avengers epic. Here again Cap is made the voice of absolutist morality, which forces him to take a position that jeopardizes every remaining universe, untold quadrillions of lives. His philosophy is so anti-life that he comes across as actually insane. He needs to be marginalized and so of course he is. For the sake of a universe, let alone an untold number of universe, shooting Cap in cold blood would have been justified if no other alternative presented itself. Philosophical thought experiments are not really fiction at all. They're essays - academic exercises - dressed up in fiction's clothing.


    Quote:
    Even when he's on sabbatical from the group he will force himself on a team of hardened criminals and train them up the Avengers way...using lies and offers of presidential pardons.








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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,751


Hawkeye is traditionally one of my least favorite Marvel characters. I didn't like his abilities or his personality, and as someone who dislikes Roy Thomas stories, I dislike much of his history.

I do like his classic costume when Byrne or Perez draws it. I think Barry Windsor-Smith would draw it terrifically.

Recently, when he took over the Ronin identity during Dark Reign, I did kind of like that and wished he'd kept it. I also liked the Matt Fraction/David Aja series.

So, for me, that is about 2 bright spots in 50 or so years of Hawkeye stories.

I think that the USAgent beating the crap out of him in Byrne's WCA might be my favorite Hawkeye moment.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102




    Quote:
    Hawkeye is traditionally one of my least favorite Marvel characters. I didn't like his abilities or his personality, and as someone who dislikes Roy Thomas stories, I dislike much of his history.


I agree with all of that but the Roy Thomas bit. Roy Thomas is awesome.


    Quote:
    I do like his classic costume when Byrne or Perez draws it. I think Barry Windsor-Smith would draw it terrifically.



    Quote:
    Recently, when he took over the Ronin identity during Dark Reign, I did kind of like that and wished he'd kept it. I also liked the Matt Fraction/David Aja series.



    Quote:
    So, for me, that is about 2 bright spots in 50 or so years of Hawkeye stories.



    Quote:
    I think that the USAgent beating the crap out of him in Byrne's WCA might be my favorite Hawkeye moment.








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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102





    Quote:
    God. How many of these damn rape stories were there? I presume this was Mockingbird? Somehow I managed to avoid these stories. Which I'm grateful for. I would be very happy if the word "rape" or the depiction thereof never appeared in another superhero comic till the end of time.



I'm fine with it if it's a subject matter treated with respect and finesse. But it so rarely is.

Clint IMO didn't seem to care Bobbi was raped. He cared that she let Phantom Rider fall off a cliff without saving him. (and she didn't kill him...she just didn't save him)

And Clint is the same guy who accidentally killed Egghead (the guy that murdered his brother Barney...before he was unkilled years later I guess). You would think Clint would have a little empathy for his own wife.

Clint's just the worst. Him and Cap both.





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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,205



    Quote:



    Quote:

      Quote:
      God. How many of these damn rape stories were there? I presume this was Mockingbird? Somehow I managed to avoid these stories. Which I'm grateful for. I would be very happy if the word "rape" or the depiction thereof never appeared in another superhero comic till the end of time.



    Quote:

    I'm fine with it if it's a subject matter treated with respect and finesse. But it so rarely is.



    Quote:
    Clint IMO didn't seem to care Bobbi was raped. He cared that she let Phantom Rider fall off a cliff without saving him. (and she didn't kill him...she just didn't save him)



    Quote:
    And Clint is the same guy who accidentally killed Egghead (the guy that murdered his brother Barney...before he was unkilled years later I guess). You would think Clint would have a little empathy for his own wife.



    Quote:
    Clint's just the worst. Him and Cap both.


...add in him secretly bedding the Wasp behind Hanks back and talking about how Hank is scum and had it coming.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    Clint IMO didn't seem to care Bobbi was raped. He cared that she let Phantom Rider fall off a cliff without saving him. (and she didn't kill him...she just didn't save him)


These are the kinds of stories that are written specifically to make characters look bad. I don't understand why Marvel does this. Does DC do it too? Either that or Marvel writers are so stupid they actually can't anticipate how readers will react to such scenarios.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102




    Quote:

      Quote:
      Clint IMO didn't seem to care Bobbi was raped. He cared that she let Phantom Rider fall off a cliff without saving him. (and she didn't kill him...she just didn't save him)



    Quote:
    These are the kinds of stories that are written specifically to make characters look bad. I don't understand why Marvel does this. Does DC do it too? Either that or Marvel writers are so stupid they actually can't anticipate how readers will react to such scenarios.


Well I think it was written by Steve Englehart. From the way he writes I've often suspected he was born in a cave and never actually interacted with other humans particularly women. The ways he wrote Crystal, Mantis and Sharon Ventura in particular were pretty bad.





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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 529



    Quote:

      Quote:
      How would YOU rate RATE Clint Barton, Hawkeye I -as an Avenger- from 1 to 10



    Quote:
    I think I would have to rate him a 10. He was the perfect Avenger. Even his imperfections were perfect. His insecurities. His hot temper. His cynicism. His grandstanding. We watched him actually evolve as a character.


I couldn't agree more....he is a total 10. He went from a pain in the ass, ball buster (Capt's Kooky Quartet) to the leader of the WCA's and then eventually his work with the Thunderbolts.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Optional QOTM's:
      1. What do you recall as your favorite Hawkeye shot and/or scene and/or issue (in any medium)?


Avenger's Annual #16, Hawkeye games the Grandmaster like only Clint can with the fate of the Universe on the line.


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      2. Which issues can you cite that he said "I QUIT!"?


I feel like it has happened so many times it really doesn't matter, he always comes back when needed.


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      3. How much do you want Kate Bishop to relinquish the codename?


Kate really grew on my me in Hawkeye's Matt Fraction series. As long as Clint is ok with it, so am I.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      4. What is a question about Hawkeye that you would enjoy to hear AMB answers about?


When is Hawkeye getting his own team to lead and who would you want to see on it?




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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 529


How much of that, especially the Wasp stuff, was bad writing?


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,205



    Quote:
    How much of that, especially the Wasp stuff, was bad writing?


Oh it was bad writing indeed...but we don't cut other characters slack for even worse writing in Civil War where editors admitted they dropped the ball letting some writers portray Stark as pure evil.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102




    Quote:
    How much of that, especially the Wasp stuff, was bad writing?


Ah the classic conundrum...is it a bad character behaving badly or is it a good character written badly?





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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 529


Granted we all have our favorites but let's also admit that a character, any character, in the right hands, can be great.

Example: Moon Knight

A character I truly could not have given two poops about, who was so bogged down in his own ever-changing continuity that even the great Bendis crashed and burned with him (at Bendis's semi and arguably the peak of Marvel popularity).

Then along comes Warren Ellis, cleans it all up, makes me give a poop again about a character who if we are being honest started off as a Batman knockoff.

Good writing trumps bad character history, while bad writing of good characters makes us all sad. Especially when you have writers and editors who have their own agenda to push (ie- I always hated charater XXXX so I will burn them, make them a joke and use them to promote the character I do like).


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The Black Guardian

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 24,705


For me, Moon Knight hasn't really been good since the 80s.

And we're really going to disagree about Ellis. I cannot stand anything he does.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,720


I don't care for the character that much, but Hawkeye's indisputably had some great Avengers moments.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102






    Quote:
    A character I truly could not have given two poops about, who was so bogged down in his own ever-changing continuity that even the great Bendis crashed and burned with him (at Bendis's semi and arguably the peak of Marvel popularity).


I fear you don't mean "great Bendis" facetiously. \(euh\)







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102




    Quote:
    For me, Moon Knight hasn't really been good since the 80s.


Has ever he ever really been good? People say he was but I never believe them.

I mean...he's Moon Knight.


    Quote:
    And we're really going to disagree about Ellis. I cannot stand anything he does.


Ellis certainly ruined Thunderbolts for me...





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emerick man 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 60,441





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The Black Guardian

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 24,705


Well, I liked him when his thing was werewolves back in the day.


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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,531



    Quote:

      Quote:
      How much of that, especially the Wasp stuff, was bad writing?



    Quote:
    Oh it was bad writing indeed...but we don't cut other characters slack for even worse writing in Civil War where editors admitted they dropped the ball letting some writers portray Stark as pure evil.


I do. Cut the characters slack, I mean. Civil War was horrendously bad. Anything out of character didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.

That's the problem with 21st century Marvel. So much is out of character. I have to pretend so much of it never happened.









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America's Captain 

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    Quote:


      Quote:
      How much of that, especially the Wasp stuff, was bad writing?



    Quote:
    Ah the classic conundrum...is it a bad character behaving badly or is it a good character written badly?


It's always the writer. The characters have no free will. What the characters have is continuity.

I actually see Clint as a little desperate when it comes to romantic love. It really isn't so much of a stretch for him to chase almost any woman. The bro code would normally have caused him to hesitate but apparently he despises Hank. I guess everyone does. Thank you so much, Jim Shooter. But whether Jan would be receptive to Clint is an open question. Also I didn't like the nearly instantaneous leap into bed. There would have been an awkward tentativeness combined with the deep mutual respect of comrades in arms. They would have taken it slow, I think. In the beginning they would have altogether denied their feelings for one another. What I would have wanted is an actual story about the two of them as an evolving couple. Instead what we got is a sudden scene done strictly for shock value. Welcome to 21st century Marvel.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102




    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        How much of that, especially the Wasp stuff, was bad writing?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Oh it was bad writing indeed...but we don't cut other characters slack for even worse writing in Civil War where editors admitted they dropped the ball letting some writers portray Stark as pure evil.



    Quote:
    I do. Cut the characters slack, I mean. Civil War was horrendously bad. Anything out of character didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.



    Quote:
    That's the problem with 21st century Marvel. So much is out of character. I have to pretend so much of it never happened.


Meteor cosigns this sentiment. Civil War almost made me quit Marvel with what they did to the New Warriors blaming them for that Stamford crap.









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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102






    Quote:
    It's always the writer. The characters have no free will. What the characters have is continuity.


Yeah but some characters are so bad you can't be too shocked when they step out of line. But that's subjective. Like I love Moonstone and while I could deal with her banging Hawkeye (who I hate) and I acknowledge she's an evil bitch but I was still really angry at Ellis's portrayal of her as a dirty skank who would bang anybody. I always saw her as someone who went out of her way to present an air of sophistication and had a logical mind so making her a ho who killed her own mother displeased me greatly. Everyone else didn't seem to mind Karla acting that way but to me that just isn't my Karla.


    Quote:
    I actually see Clint as a little desperate when it comes to romantic love. It really isn't so much of a stretch for him to chase almost any woman. The bro code would normally have caused him to hesitate but apparently he despises Hank. I guess everyone does. Thank you so much, Jim Shooter. But whether Jan would be receptive to Clint is an open question. Also I didn't like the nearly instantaneous leap into bed. There would have been an awkward tentativeness combined with the deep mutual respect of comrades in arms. They would have taken it slow, I think. In the beginning they would have altogether denied their feelings for one another. What I would have wanted is an actual story about the two of them as an evolving couple. Instead what we got is a sudden scene done strictly for shock value. Welcome to 21st century Marvel.


Yeah the fact that they slept together isn't what actually bothered me. The fact that they slept together and it apparently meant nothing to them did bother me. They have worked together for years and she, Hank, Clint and Bobbi worked together in the West Coast branch.

This is someone she has been close professional colleagues (if not actual friends) for several years before and after her divorce and through the loss of his wife. Jan and Hank were right there when Clint and Bobbi split up trying to get them back together.

I would have been fine with it if it had been Jan and Clint had feelings for each other and they gave in to them but it was presented as a trashy hookup. And in a twisted way I think Clint did it to piss off Hank which is just...mean spirited.





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,102




    Quote:
    Well, I liked him when his thing was werewolves back in the day.


I remember that. That's why I was always shocked he lasted this long. He's that rare character that seems to outlive their original purpose and still hangs around.







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America's Captain 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,531



    Quote:
    Yeah but some characters are so bad you can't be too shocked when they step out of line. But that's subjective. Like I love Moonstone and while I could deal with her banging Hawkeye (who I hate) and I acknowledge she's an evil bitch but I was still really angry at Ellis's portrayal of her as a dirty skank who would bang anybody. I always saw her as someone who went out of her way to present an air of sophistication and had a logical mind so making her a ho who killed her own mother displeased me greatly. Everyone else didn't seem to mind Karla acting that way but to me that just isn't my Karla.


I think I mostly agree with you on Karla. I don't think she would bang anybody. But I do think she would use sex to manipulate men who have power in her world. As for killing her own mother - as a crime of passion it would be out of character for her, but if done for strategic or survival reasons, then yeah, I can see it. To me she's a classic sociopath: no conscience, manipulative, superiority complex, relentlessly competitive, arbitrarily cruel, lacking in normal human emotional responses, playing at life like a game where the only thing that matters is winning in whatever scenario is under way at the moment.


    Quote:
    Yeah the fact that (Clint and Jan) slept together isn't what actually bothered me. The fact that they slept together and it apparently meant nothing to them did bother me. They have worked together for years and she, Hank, Clint and Bobbi worked together in the West Coast branch.


I agree with you. A one night stand was wildly out of character for Clint and Jan, given their history together.


    Quote:
    This is someone she has been close professional colleagues (if not actual friends) for several years before and after her divorce and through the loss of his wife. Jan and Hank were right there when Clint and Bobbi split up trying to get them back together.



    Quote:
    I would have been fine with it if it had been Jan and Clint had feelings for each other and they gave in to them but it was presented as a trashy hookup. And in a twisted way I think Clint did it to piss off Hank which is just...mean spirited.


I agree. Just way out of character. Plus tiresome. The endless Hank-is-a-jerk stuff really makes me tired. Just stop mentioning him. Forget he ever existed.

Clint and Jan as an evolving couple would have been fine. Clint and Jan as a one night stand was an insult to both characters.






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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,141



    Quote:
    How would YOU rate RATE Clint Barton, Hawkeye I -as an Avenger- from 1 to 10


Let's give him a 9, as I'm reluctant to give anyone a 10. He is, IMO, one of the (quint)essential Avengers and I've loved him since the days of Cap's Kookie Quartet. (He also showed that is not just Spider-Man who is bedevilled by the so-called Peter Parker Luck in his private dealings).


    Quote:
    Optional QOTM's:
    1. What do you recall as your favorite Hawkeye shot and/or scene and/or issue (in any medium)?


So many to choose from, so I'll go for the Hawkeye of Chris Giarusso's Mini Marvels, especially the story "Hawkeye and the Curse of the Crimson Crown" - so typical, when the Avengers are captured it's up to Clint to save the day, but no one will ever now because Doc Strange steals the credit and leaves him stranded! \:\-D

Also the original mini by the late, great Mark Gruenwald


    Quote:
    2. Which issues can you cite that he said "I QUIT!"?
    3. How much do you want Kate Bishop to relinquish the codename?


Not at all. I like the two together with a bit of a rivalry.


    Quote:
    4. What is a question about Hawkeye that you would enjoy to hear AMB answers about?





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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,720



    Quote:
    1. What do you recall as your favorite Hawkeye shot and/or scene and/or issue (in any medium)?
      Quote:


      Hawkeye beating the Grandmaster with a trick.


        Quote:
        3. How much do you want Kate Bishop to relinquish the codename?


      Not at all.


        Quote:
        4. What is a question about Hawkeye that you would enjoy to hear AMB answers about?


      How old is Clint supposed to be?




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