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Author
Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


rank the following in terms of strength, speed, fighting ability, and overall effectiveness...then who would win in fights against each other.

Steve Austin (6 million dollar man)
TV Hulk (Lou F.)
TV Wonder Woman (Linda Carter)
Buffy
Angel


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


strength:

TV Hulk had a few feats that I think were beyond the others...almost breaking out of the dome of very thick homogeneous titanium steel when the army captured him, and throwing a stump one handed so far and fast he knocked down a helicopter (a stump big enough that the strongmen in the WSM competition likely could barely lift IMO)...he also lifted a big portion of an oil cap (several tons) and a few others.

Steve Austin's bionics I think are probably next...ripping off Bigfoots arm, and ability to break through VERY thick concrete...but overall he's more limited because he's only partially bionic.

Wonder Woman: regularly performed the types of feats Buffy did occasionally

If I had to give them OHOTMU type classifications, I'd say

LF Hulk class 10, maybe a little higher

LC Wonder Woman: 5 ton

Steve Austin: His bionics slightly stronger than WW,but couldn't lift
as much because he's more limited

Buffy: hard to pin down, maybe 3 tons to Diana's 5, maybe as high as
4


Speed:
Austin could sustain running at 60 mph. Diana similarly, Buffy showed she could run with a vehicle for a while, but not maintain. Hulk...hard to peg

I say Diana, then Steve Austin, then Buffy, then Hulk


Reaction:
Diana by a mile
Buffy
Hulk and Austin in the same ballpark

Overall effectiveness:
Wonder Woman
Hulk
Buffy and Austin

fights:

Hulk beats Austin or Buffy, might be even with Wonder Woman
Austin loses a good fight to Diana, as does Buffy

Austin vs. Buffy is where I think it gets interesting, and I think could go either way.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,727



Your overselling Buffy's strength, Braugi. She's no where near 3 to 4 ton lifting strength. If she was that high, she wouldn't have struggled breaking chains, hand-cuffs and what not. She's barely above comic Cap's strength level, IF that.

STRENGTH:

Hulk (TV)
Wonder Woman (Linda Carter)
Steve Austin (6 Million Dollar Man)
Buffy Summers
Angel

SPEED:

Wonder Woman (Linda Carter)
Steve Austin (6 Million Dollar Man)
Buffy Summers
Angel
Hulk (TV) (Never did see him run, so who knows how fast of a runner he is. I've seen him jog, but not run. Then again, I only watched a few episodes of that borefest TV show).

REACTIONS:

Wonder Woman (Linda Carter)
Buffy Summers
Angel
Steve Austin and Hulk (TV)

FIGHTS

Hulk (TV) Vs. any of them on the above lists. I think Hulk wins against any of them one-on-one.

Wonder Woman (Linda Carter) Vs. beats everyone one-on-one, except Hulk.

Steve Austin Vs. Buffy or Angel. I think Steve beats either one-on-one due to his superior strength.

Buffy Summers Vs. Angel. Didn't they already fight? Buffy wins, but loses to everyone listed above.







It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,087



    Quote:

    If she was that high, she wouldn't have struggled breaking chains, hand-cuffs and what not. She's barely above comic Cap's strength level, IF that.


She did bend the bars of a jail cell which I think would be a higher feat than struggling with chains or handcuffs.


    Quote:
    Steve Austin Vs. Buffy or Angel. I think Steve beats either one-on-one due to his superior strength.


But Steve is a glass cannon. Where he's not bionic, he's only human. One good hit from Buffy or Angel could finish him.


    Quote:
    Buffy Summers Vs. Angel. Didn't they already fight? Buffy wins, but loses to everyone listed above.

Buffy fought Angelus. They seemed pretty even affairs, though we know Buffy is stronger.






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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,727




    Quote:
    She did bend the bars of a jail cell which I think would be a higher feat than struggling with chains or handcuffs.


One feat of this doesn't erase the numerous times she's struggled with less. When you average out her high end and low end feats, she's at, or a smidge above, Captain America in strength. And in most episodes, she just punched around Vampires and that was the strength we saw outside of the occasion strength feat, low or high.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


Faith also has some pretty good showings, but they're kind of interspersed around the show.

Glory seemed impressive though, bringing down a building with a stomp of her foot puts her into the MU brick categories, but she was substantially stronger than Buffy.

My understanding is that it was more consistent in the comic, but in general, she can break through brick walls easily, bend jail cell bars, shatter statues with her bare hands, lift a large I beam easily, and have sex forcefully enough to literally bring down a house.

Cap has a few feats at about the same level, and WAY more appearances in which to showcase his strength. Blue Beast is in the 2-5 ton range, and got OWNED by peak Human Cap in a fight during Infinity Crusade. I put Buffy in that Beast range, definitively stronger than Cap, but not necessarily by a lot. A good showing might have her as high as 4 or 5, with her top feats being similar to some of those by 70's TV Wonder Woman, but usually she seems closer to 1-2 ton range, but maybe some of that is motivation or whatever...there's always some inherent inconsistency in comics as well.

BUT, thats why I think its clear she's not as strong as 70's TV wonder woman...WW has a good feat about every episode that matches Buffy's best. TV Hulk did too, with a few that were substantially above even that, though hard to quantify. Steve Austin had similar level feats regularly, but is only about half bionic, half normal, so overall, Buffy might well be his superior, though that bionic arm might be able to pack more punch than she can...his non bionic isn't competitive.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,727



because Buffy's average strength from episode to episode was mostly punching Vampires and/or throwing them. Only occasionally did we get to see either a low end feat of strength or the rare high end one. Her low end feats outweigh her high end ones and were seen more consistently than her high end strength feats. If we average all that out, then Buffy comes squarely as Cap level, maybe a bit stronger, but no where near 3 to 4 ton strength that your trying to give her. No where near it.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


feats are crap measures of relative strength. We have few feats, in part because of budgetary constraints on a show.

Also, not having feats because feats aren't attempted is very different from having a lot of 'failed' feats. There are a few 'failed' feats, like struggling with chains, but a lot of other very good feats, like punching through concrete or brick.

The beatings Buffy stood up to from Glory, for instance, judging by the foot stomp feat, could well put Buffy's durability in the ballpark of the wrecking crew...now, I don't buy that, but that is in part why its so difficult.

The only 'concrete' information we have is that vampires are stronger than people in general, and that Buffy is significantly stronger than Spike and stronger than Angel. Other types of vampires are stronger than 'normal' vampires too.

We know that 'enhanced, super-soldiers' aren't on Buffy's level too, but how do they stack up.

By her highest end feats, she's probably above class 5. By her failures, maybe class 1. By lack of attempts, we gain no information. Her feats that put her at 1 ton or more are at least as numerous as those that put Cap in the 1 ton ballpark, with FAR fewer showings.

So, in terms of probability, she's almost certainly above peak human. Likewise, she's pretty much statistically certain to be less than class 10, and pretty unlikely to be at or above class 5. Most likely somewhere in the 1-4 ton range, and good arguments can be made at least up to 3 tons.

If JW wrote a crossover, I'd be surprised if Cap were stronger, for instance, but I'd be VERY surprised if she were stronger than Spider Man. I wouldn't be surprised if she overpowered Vermin (at 2 tons) however. I'd be a little surprised if she overpowered Beast, who has ranged from 1 ton to a 10 ton listing in at least one handbook, and often considered about a 5 tonner. That said, the version listed at 10 tons has similar leaping capacity to what she has shown, and his running speed is explicitly lower (40 mph for Beast, while Buffy was able to keep up with a bus).


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


the old Handbooks listed Blade at 1 ton, and Cap at peak human (800 lbs).


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Liam Gallagher's Unibrow


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,091



Agree with all of this. The budgetary/choreography factors on the show can't really be overemphasised as limiting factors. If you watch how Angel is portrayed in season 1 of Buffy, or even season 1 of his own show, and then watch how he is shown in season 4 and 5 of Angel, there's just no comparison (as an aside, seasons 4 and 5 a lot of the episodes are done by the same guy who did Daredevil season 1 and you can tell the fight scene choreography is on a whole new level to anything previously in either Buffy or Angel).

Angelus vs Faith in season 4 has them punting each other twenty of thirty feet across the room, both of them leaping at least that straight up vertically multiple times, dodging point blank range shotgun blasts etc. By season 5 you have Angel walking off falling several hundred feet out of a skyscraper on to solid concrete. You have several people in those later seasons shown capable of deadlifting vehicles (in one case, lifting and then throwing a car as a weapon fairly casually - these guys are clearly stronger than Angel and the like, but it does show that they are meant to be interacting with a level of being way above Cap).

If you read the Joss Whedon written comics that followed the TV shows, you really get to the inescapable conclusion that these characters are, conceptually, above the street level comic guys. In a medium where budgetary constraints were no longer an issue, you have Buffy tearing through rooms full of dozens of soldiers with machine guns without getting touched, dodging and weaving through machine gun fire like Daredevil on his best day. Angel has multiple showings of punching clean through people's torsos, punching through concrete etc. I'd need to go back and re-read the series but I remember everyone being dialled up a level as you would expect in comics (applied across the spectrum - Willow was much more a Dr Strange type combat mage, levitating, teleporting, energy shields etc., and the uber threats were really uber - a fully-unleashed Ilyria was collapsing all of space-time and rewriting reality).

I'm 110% certain that if someone asked Joss Whedon who was stronger, Buffy or his movie Cap, he would say Buffy and convincingly.


Cheers.





Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,143


Liked when TV hulk tore a telephone pole out of ground, and used it as a bat to snash a semi with!




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


as the first place I know of it showing the Hulk's healing was when David was paralyzed, but noted the Hulk heals from almost anything, and rapidly...

Overall, it was a good show, but overly formulaic. Only a few instances where he got to actually fight anything. I think he overpowered a hyperagressive gorilla, and he beat the other Hulk...thats about it...


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,863




    Quote:
    as the first place I know of it showing the Hulk's healing was when David was paralyzed, but noted the Hulk heals from almost anything, and rapidly...



    Quote:
    Overall, it was a good show, but overly formulaic. Only a few instances where he got to actually fight anything. I think he overpowered a hyperagressive gorilla, and he beat the other Hulk...thats about it...








Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,087


Never fighting super villians, only fighting normal men, never punching anyone, just picking guys up and throwing them.


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swmcbf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,899


While it didn't constitute a whooping but Thor certainly got his first lesson in humility. I do not remember who wrote the script but Thor was a human viking,his hammer did not return when thrown and Don Blake was Thor's keeper. Great feat for him was using mjolnir to smash a speeding car. That said it was the best depiction of a Thor character in a live action story until Hemsworth. Now that is sad indeed.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,143


He seemed to be maybe Spodey levels strrenght wise, with classic wolfie healing?


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


as I found the tv movie collection in a bargain bin at wal mart.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


and he also fought a hyperaggressive Gorilla in season one, one that was drugged to be aggressive...and Hulk was stronger, and easily broke out of the cage that held the gorilla....and the tv movie Thor...thats about all I can think of...




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


if that, though in a crossover, he'd probably be slightly stronger than teenage Spidey

As to the healing factor, Banner got permanently paralyzed. Transformed into the Hulk, IIRC Hulk seemed not able to coordinate well, but walked, when he transformed back, Banner had notable improvement...one more transformation and Banner was completely healed

noted increased healing as the Hulk multiple times as well, but not like bullet wounds closing up in seconds either. I'd say more like classic Hawk and Dove healing, but hard to quantify...


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