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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,986


Shatner as he was against Khan, and has a hand phaser!


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,305



    Quote:
    Shatner as he was against Khan, and has a hand phaser!


Kirk is a poor fighter compared to comic MAs like Cap. He also hasn't studied Spider-Man like Cap has, and Peter won't have the same hero worship for him that he does for Steve, so all in all, Tiberius won't do as well against Spidey HtH as Cap would.

Granted, you gave him a phaser as well, but I think Spidey would be able to avoid his shots and disarm him pretty easily.




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 212


How good of a fighter is Kirk? The style shown in the series was not impressive, but he performed far better than any other human.....is it a limit on the show capability or on his skill.

To put it better...how would he do against street level comic characters


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,305



    Quote:
    How good of a fighter is Kirk? The style shown in the series was not impressive, but he performed far better than any other human.....is it a limit on the show capability or on his skill.

    To put it better...how would he do against street level comic characters


It's a fair point; the extent to which you do or don't allow for the limitations of an actor portraying a fighter. I've seen the same point come up when comparing Rockyverse fighters to real world boxers. And I'm somewhat torn about which way I come down on this myself.

But, even allowing for Shatner's limitations to some extent, and accepting that he was written as perhaps the most formidable unaugmented human fighter in the Trek universe shown on-screen, I still have a hard time putting him especially close to the likes of Cap or Daredevil in skill. Neither he, nor any other fighter I'm aware of in the Trek universe, have showings that come close to what A-list comic fighters have been shown to be capable of (and Trek writers have had ample opportunity to showcase the skill of their fighters across the hundreds of episodes that have aired).

I honestly don't think there's much reason to rate Kirk any higher than the Punisher in HtH skill. Again, leaving Shatner's limitations aside, there's really nothing in Kirk's background or showings (or the background/showings of his notable opponents) to suggest he's any more skilled than Castle. And when I say "showings", I'm referring to what Kirk actually achieved in combat, rather than how good Shatner looked in motion.




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,152




    Quote:
    Shatner as he was against Khan, and has a hand phaser!


Spider-Man.

Now if you had Scotty versues Spider-Man he'd just teleport that dork into space.



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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 212


when I think of his best showings, I think of beating Khan. In Mirror Mirror, when all of the relocated take on the evil Spock, he's the only one that has any measure of success, but he's pretty consistently gotten the worst of it from Spock...but for someone who 'supposedly' is 3-4X a human his size, thats pretty good...

Though unnamed Vulcans get beaten by named humans, at least in one episode of TNG with the proto Tuvok (same actor, different Vulcan), and Romulans seem pretty beatable 1 on 1 by humans...

So yeah, I think Kirk could compete with a lot of street levellers, but the better ones would beat him in a straight up fight.

Kirk's greatest strength is his adaptability, intuition, and insight...thinking on his feet.

I'm trying to remember how the old Xmen vs. Star Trek went down...I just remember Wolverine commenting on how good the crew was, and I think Spock took Wolverine down with a nerve pinch, but it didn't last long enough due to healing factor....


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 212


http://www.againwiththecomics.com/2009/02/wolverine-versus-spock_05.html

Spock didn't expect the recovery, but a Vulcan seemed able to do pretty well...just thought it was interesting. I don't recall Kirk fighting any of them directly.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 212


http://ifanboy.com/articles/marvel-histories-star-trek-x-men/

I didn't get the TNG crossover, would have liked the Worf and wolverine scene in th eholodeck


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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 2,745


The two-handed fist strike. The flying drop kick. The back-first leaping slam. Peter will never know what hit him.


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,305



    Quote:
    when I think of his best showings, I think of beating Khan.


Kirk used a metal pipe to knock out Khan though; he was making a fight of it HtH before that, but it wasn't at all clear that he would've won without resorting to a weapon.


    Quote:
    In Mirror Mirror, when all of the relocated take on the evil Spock, he's the only one that has any measure of success, but he's pretty consistently gotten the worst of it from Spock...but for someone who 'supposedly' is 3-4X a human his size, thats pretty good...


Guys like Batman and Daredevil take on opponents with far greater strength than that though, and sometimes win.


    Quote:
    Though unnamed Vulcans get beaten by named humans, at least in one episode of TNG with the proto Tuvok (same actor, different Vulcan), and Romulans seem pretty beatable 1 on 1 by humans...


I think you may be mistaken about Tim Russ playing another Vulcan aside from Tuvok. He has played other characters in the Trek franchise, two humans and a Klingon, but no other Vulcans according to his Trek Wikia page.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Tim_Russ


    Quote:
    So yeah, I think Kirk could compete with a lot of street levellers, but the better ones would beat him in a straight up fight.

    Kirk's greatest strength is his adaptability, intuition, and insight...thinking on his feet.

    I'm trying to remember how the old Xmen vs. Star Trek went down...I just remember Wolverine commenting on how good the crew was, and I think Spock took Wolverine down with a nerve pinch, but it didn't last long enough due to healing factor....


Yeah, I bought that crossover when it came out. I don't think it's necessarily indicative of Spock being a terrific fighter though. Wolverine's healing factor makes him careless at times, and the Vulcan nerve pinch is a specific technique, something that can be learned without having to master a broader martial skill set. Kraven the Hunter knows similar techniques, and he's been stated to be less skilled than Ka-Zar, who is himself largely a brawler.




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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 212


As to the Star Trek vs. Xmen...I don't know either, because IMO Wolverine, for a VERY long time wasn't depicted as a very good fighter...even now he usually isn't, until they want to show him as the best fighter in the MU again...one of the things I hate about Wolverine...

Anyway, it does at least show that Spock can play in that ballpark pretty well. I think he'd be a decent meta character in the MU.


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Bk Ray


Member Since: Mon Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 5,996




    Quote:
    As to the Star Trek vs. Xmen...I don't know either, because IMO Wolverine, for a VERY long time wasn't depicted as a very good fighter...even now he usually isn't, until they want to show him as the best fighter in the MU again...one of the things I hate about Wolverine...



    Quote:
    Anyway, it does at least show that Spock can play in that ballpark pretty well. I think he'd be a decent meta character in the MU.


Sorry, but he would be well out of his league as a meta. He is a low borderline one IMHO.

Against USAgent, Beast, Cyclops, Wasp, Mr Fantastic he would be hopelessly outclassed.

Even against Wildcat or Lady Shiva, I think he would lose a good fight even with a phaser.



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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 212


I think he'd beat Angel, Vermin, Killer Croc, and most other low metas, and have a decent shot against classic Cyclops and similar characters, though I am generally Assuming normal equipment to include phasor and tricorder


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The Shuruku Demon


Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 10,305



    Quote:
    As to the Star Trek vs. Xmen...I don't know either, because IMO Wolverine, for a VERY long time wasn't depicted as a very good fighter...even now he usually isn't, until they want to show him as the best fighter in the MU again...one of the things I hate about Wolverine...

    Anyway, it does at least show that Spock can play in that ballpark pretty well. I think he'd be a decent meta character in the MU.


For what it's worth, the first X-Men/Star Trek crossover was scripted by Scott Lobdell, who also wrote Wolverine getting the better of Shang-Chi. It wasn't strictly a pure martial arts duel (Logan slammed him, then put his claws to Shang's throat), but nonetheless, it was clearly acknowledged that Logan was skilled.

Still, when you consider that he had no idea who Spock was, and launched himself at him in a brash manner, I don't think Spock had to be a high level martial artist in order to be able to grab his shoulder and squeeze.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,986


He seemed to be able to fight against Klingons and Vulvans pretty well, races much stronger than Humnas, took Khan, and has a vaunted "luck" factor.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,986


He was quite skiiled, but his greatest advantages was could improvise, play dirty, and had big luck factor!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,986


Kirk would probably be same as a top ranker boxer in his weight class, with some martial arts traing, and was a soldier also!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,986


Spock would be about like Steve rogers, with Vulvan martial art skills that were high end...


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,986


Spock would be a tough fight foe any non supered powered up person!


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Dragon Red


Member Since: Fri Jul 05, 2013
Posts: 862


Don't forget the barrel rolling legsweep!


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