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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 340


Very interesting to see some of the answers from BKRays earlier thread. I hope i am not breaking some kind of 'Board etiquette' by doing this and if i am please tell me and ignore this post.

Anyways - wanted to expand on the 'if Odin is 100 what is....' with a DC spin:


DC Ares

Wonder Woman (pre52)

Superman (pre52)

Captain Marvel (Billy) (is there really a difference pre52 vs post? Besides some electical powers?)

Doomsday

Darkseid

Green Lantern Hal Jordan

Ganthet

Trigon

Mister Mytzplk (sp?)

Crisis Anti-Monitor

Spectre (classic)

Superboy-Prime

Mongul the senior

Mongul the junior


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,863



Their cosmic level beings are less defined.

As the DC 'herald' types tend to be flying bricks, they don't tend to have the cosmic versatility of Surfer, Thor etc.

They are absolute physical powerhouses and this lends to a significant advantage in a fight IMO.

Ganthet is all over the place, at times he's comparable to a Watcher at other times a GL could give him a good fight.





Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,727




DC Ares: Hard to pin down. His power level is all over the place. In one story, he's so powerful, not even Superman can beat him. In another story, he's being killed by Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman (pre52): 70%

Superman (pre52): 80%

Captain Marvel (Billy) (is there really a difference pre52 vs post? Besides some electical powers?): 80%

Doomsday: 90%

Darkseid: 85%

Green Lantern Hal Jordan: 75%

Ganthet: 93%

Trigon: Don't know enough to quantify

Mister Mytzplk (sp?): 100%

Crisis Anti-Monitor: 100%

Spectre (classic): 100%

Superboy-Prime: 95%

Mongul the senior & Mongul the junior: 70%





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


DC Ares: I find it nearly impossible to measure a lot of these types of DC characters...

Thor: 15
Surfer: 15
Loki: 13
Firelord: 12-13
Dr. Strange: 10
Immortal Hercules: 10

Wonder Woman (pre52): 9-10, I still believe Immortal Herc is stronger and more durable, though she has a speed and mobility advantage with her flight...so I think they're pretty much equal overall.

Superman (pre52): 13

Captain Marvel (Billy) (is there really a difference pre52 vs post? Besides some electical powers?): same as Superman

Orion: 15 (yes, I put him more powerful than Superman. I think Supes and he are equal in strength and durability, and Supes has a speed advantage, but Orion's Astro Force versatility and mother box gives him a measurable overall power advantage.

Doomsday: DOS 13, Overall equal to Superman...stronger and more durable, but without EP and true flight

Darkseid: 17 estimate...I think he's a peer to Superman and Orion physically, and his OE is a little more effective and versatile than the Astro Force...and generally he operates at a higher level, but is well within striking distance of Superman and up

Green Lantern Hal Jordan:10, higher lows than Dr. Strange, but lower highs, I think he's generally operating on about the same level

Ganthet: either 10 or 100....all over the place


Crisis Anti-Monitor: I'd first have to measure Supergirl Pre Crisis and add about 20%...


Superboy-Prime: 20-25?

Mongul the senior: 10

Mongul the junior: 9



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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 340


well glad i am not being rude or disrepectful by expanding your original post and being a hacker \:\)

i agree that DC cosmics and herald-level characters are harder to pinpoint for the most part.

but in my mind that was why i did this - i was very interested in some of the responses your post got and my own thoughts when i actually went to respond.

i found the responses you got were also very fluid about Odin and Galactus and even Dormammu and Strange.

i thought using a benchmark Marvel character with tons of feats like Odin being set at 100 was a great way of evaluating any powerhouse, and was very curious to see where the regulars on the board placed the DC characters.

i knew this wouldn't be an easy thread but was hoping to check out some opinions


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,863









Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 340


You put Thor and Surfer 2 points ahead of Superman and Shazam Billy? I agree that they are definitely more versatile - but does that versitility truly equal greater overall power?


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


When you take Thor and Hercules, for instance, you're dealing with two, virtually identical characters in terms of physical attributes...who is more powerful...Yup, Thor is.

Even if Thor's other powers were more limited, say able to create a flashlight from his finger, he'd be more powerful than Herc...though the difference in that case wouldn't be enough to make a practical difference.

Now, take one and make them 5% weaker...the other is more powerful. But give that other one flight...now is it about equal again...maybe depends on speed and quality of flight when compared with effectiveness of leaping ability....

It gets complicated quickly...I will say that if you have someone who has EP as powerful as Hercules' punches, they're not as powerful as Herc because they'll lack his durability....though they can attack at range more easily which makes up for it somewhat...so maybe his EP is somewhat more powerful...to the point we agree that person and Herc are equal in power....

THEN, combine the powers into one person...I don't think that person is twice as powerful as Herc, but he's clearly more powerful...how much is harder to measure.

With Superman and Thor, I think a pretty good argument can be made that Post Crisis Superman may not have been as strong as Thor up through Return of Superman, and the converse was a harder sell (though roughly equal is a reasonable conclusion)...after return of Superman, Supes seemed to have better showings relative to a lot of his previous peers and enemies, though top end comparables still seemed to be equals (and a whole issue to establish Superman and CM as equals in every way after that point), but a reasonable evaluation could range from peers to Superman having a slight advantage in strength.

Superman has more hard durability, but overall not a big durability advantage. Superman also has a speed advantage.

IMO Thor's energy and other powers have proven more impressive and significant than his physical attributes, and I think they are greater than Superman's combination of abilities by a fair margin. Physical attributes Superman probably has an edge, other powers, I think Thor has a substantial advantage.

Now, the way they actually fight, I think puts Thor vs. Superman as a very even fight, and it is reasonable to conclude Supes would be the favorite (I don't necessarily agree, however), but Thor tends to fight a fight that plays to Superman's strengths. Surfer, OTOH, i think would be a clear favorite vs. Superman, and Thor remains a favorite vs. Surfer.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 643


I think one of his best showings was retconned...wasn't his defeat of Darkseid retconned with the 'Desaad is impersonating DS' thing?

Versions have had awesome showings though, and other versions I'd put as clear underdogs to Strange in a straight magical combat. So I'd say they range from a peer in terms of magical ability to underdog.

I also don't quite know where to rank his strength and durability...it doesn't seem to come into play as much as Loki's, but we know its there...I'm assuming he's not as durable as Loki, but I could be wrong...

So, in general, with him being a rough peer to Strange magically, somewhere between Strange and Loki, but maybe on the lower end toward Strange, because while he won't have the lowest lows of Strange, he hasn't punched in the highest weight class quite as often, and one of the times he did I believe was retconned (though he still has some other REALLY awesome showings).

Lower versions equal to strange, best versions on par with Loki, and generally somewhere in between...


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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 340


Interesting perspectives - and i wholeheartly agree with your last paragraph.

While i do agree Supermans physical stats are slightly greater than Thors and Thors versitility is greater than Supermans - which makes them extremely close peers - i guess i viewed the question a little differently - i envisioned Odin as a battery with 100% juice or an old D&D character with 100 hit points and then compared those thoughts against the other characters to determine power levels.

Or if each characters (equipment included) were being drained by some nasty villains power draining machine - which character will have the most juice to drain?

But this is one of the reasons i love this board - how we are all asked a question and the different ways we come to our answers (for the most part anyways until a Hulk-Thor or Superman-Thor debate begins in whatever new creative way it gets brought up and then consumes everyones time and thoughts).


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,143


Fate as a Lord of Order would have more "natural power" thsan either Strange/Loki, has real durability factor, but Strange seems to be able to call upon His higher powers better...


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,143


Superman has true flight and Flash mode, how does Thor counter that?


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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 340


Wouldnt be the first time Thor defeated a superfast flying brick - spinning hammer seems like a easy way to prevent anyone from getting to close. I think Supes wins more often than not but i think Thor is a true peer and equal.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210


Orion has never been stated as equal to Superman or more powerful than him.

Superman is definitely not lower than Surfer or Thor in power and would never be shown as such in a comic.

Darkseid is at least 30. He is in similar class as Galactus or Odin.

Hal is at least 15, going above that currently.

Ganthet is at least 25.

Anti Monitor is 100. Pretty much abstract level of power. Supergirl showing is akin to Thor almost killing Galactus. Anomaly that is not at all his usual power levels.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



    Quote:
    When you take Thor and Hercules, for instance, you're dealing with two, virtually identical characters in terms of physical attributes...who is more powerful...Yup, Thor is.



    Quote:
    Even if Thor's other powers were more limited, say able to create a flashlight from his finger, he'd be more powerful than Herc...though the difference in that case wouldn't be enough to make a practical difference.



    Quote:
    Now, take one and make them 5% weaker...the other is more powerful. But give that other one flight...now is it about equal again...maybe depends on speed and quality of flight when compared with effectiveness of leaping ability....



    Quote:
    It gets complicated quickly...I will say that if you have someone who has EP as powerful as Hercules' punches, they're not as powerful as Herc because they'll lack his durability....though they can attack at range more easily which makes up for it somewhat...so maybe his EP is somewhat more powerful...to the point we agree that person and Herc are equal in power....



    Quote:
    THEN, combine the powers into one person...I don't think that person is twice as powerful as Herc, but he's clearly more powerful...how much is harder to measure.



    Quote:
    With Superman and Thor, I think a pretty good argument can be made that Post Crisis Superman may not have been as strong as Thor up through Return of Superman, and the converse was a harder sell (though roughly equal is a reasonable conclusion)...after return of Superman, Supes seemed to have better showings relative to a lot of his previous peers and enemies, though top end comparables still seemed to be equals (and a whole issue to establish Superman and CM as equals in every way after that point), but a reasonable evaluation could range from peers to Superman having a slight advantage in strength.


Incorrect. Superman was already stronger than Thor since Byrne era. He was still the strongest hero on earth while Thor wasn't. In fact Superman of year one era fought and stalemated savage Hulk who is at least Thor's equal in strength.


    Quote:
    Superman has more hard durability, but overall not a big durability advantage. Superman also has a speed advantage.


Superman is substantially more durable than Thor. Even Byrne Superman was able to take attacks that koed other class 100 characters like J'onn pretty easily.

Thor has never been close to Superman in durability.


    Quote:
    IMO Thor's energy and other powers have proven more impressive and significant than his physical attributes, and I think they are greater than Superman's combination of abilities by a fair margin. Physical attributes Superman probably has an edge, other powers, I think Thor has a substantial advantage.


Hardly. Heat vision has proved more devastating than anything Thor has produced save godblast which is a rarely used ability anyway.


    Quote:
    Now, the way they actually fight, I think puts Thor vs. Superman as a very even fight, and it is reasonable to conclude Supes would be the favorite (I don't necessarily agree, however), but Thor tends to fight a fight that plays to Superman's strengths. Surfer, OTOH, i think would be a clear favorite vs. Superman, and Thor remains a favorite vs. Surfer.


Superman is a clear favorite against Thor and Surfer both.

In fact Surfer was shown struggling against Cyborg Superman who Superman utterly stomped by the same writer. Surfer has also never beaten Thor while Superman has.

There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,143


John B Supes took a 40 nmeg nuke flush, and was woozy and had to walk a bit, but that was when he was realyy depowered down also!

And Thor able to fight against likes of Spidey and Mongooise not quite same as Superman/Flash!

Dan Jurgens did see Superman as more powerful than Thor, but also saw the Magical weakness of Him allowing the Hammer to smack him down, but was evident Kurt Busiek disagreed!


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bragagain007


Member Since: Tue Dec 27, 2016
Posts: 340


I may not agree completely or even disagree about some of your points....

The Darkseid statement of being in a similar class to Galactus and Odin is definitely not accurate - i like Darkseid as a character for the most part - when he is not being watered down.

Darkseid was treated as a lower weight class opponent than Galactus in the crossover - i believe Darkseid vs Galactus actually - or maybe the Surfer/Green Lantern one - it was the ninties - my memory isnt as good as it used to be lol.

Darkseid even admits it i believe when he is pretty much defeated but states that he would never stop opposing Galactus as long as he tried taking what was his (Eating Apokolips).

I think the rest of what u said is a subjective and debatable but neither really right or wrong. I just like hearing other peoples opinions and thoughts.


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makkari1


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,529



    Quote:
    John B Supes took a 40 nmeg nuke flush, and was woozy and had to walk a bit, but that was when he was realyy depowered down also!
Thor has also taken a nuke at least twice and walked on the Sun (conversing with Atum). Thor has also flown into the Sun to drop off Sentry's body. So has insane durability. So what's your point?


    Quote:
    And Thor able to fight against likes of Spidey and Mongooise not quite same as Superman/Flash!
Because doesn't want to kill either so he holds back, period. Thor has stated as much.


    Quote:
    Dan Jurgens did see Superman as more powerful than Thor, but also saw the Magical weakness of Him allowing the Hammer to smack him down, but was evident Kurt Busiek disagreed!
So when a another writer see it the other way does that make it law and written in stone? No it doesn't.




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Primetime


Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009
Posts: 225



    Quote:
    Incorrect. Superman was already stronger than Thor since Byrne era. He was still the strongest hero on earth while Thor wasn't. In fact Superman of year one era fought and stalemated savage Hulk who is at least Thor's equal in strength.


In that book, Hulk outdoes him in tests of strength and Superman makes up for it with flight, surprise and speed.


    Quote:
    Hardly. Heat vision has proved more devastating than anything Thor has produced save godblast which is a rarely used ability anyway.


It's telling that you have to restrict Thor for Superman to match. The godblast has been used enough to be standard. But standard lighting surpasses Superman's hv:

http://i.imgur.com/elxAsb9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xSqIo3a.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Utp5A4E.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V3NanuI.jpg


    Quote:
    Superman is a clear favorite against Thor and Surfer both.



    Quote:
    In fact Surfer was shown struggling against Cyborg Superman who Superman utterly stomped by the same writer. Surfer has also never beaten Thor while Superman has.


Yet, Superman has been written struggling against Cyborg Superman. Surfer took Hulk down easier than Superman did a weaker Hulk. Surfer crushed Orion in a way that Superman has not even come close to doing. Standard Thor could not inflict as much damage to Surfer as he did Superman.


    Quote:
    There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100.


RC said that he said that. That's sort of hearsay.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,612



    Quote:
    Orion has never been stated as equal to Superman or more powerful than him.


Really? Never?







    Quote:
    Darkseid is at least 30. He is in similar class as Galactus or Odin.


You know that Odin is 100 on this scale, right? 30 is nowhere close to being in a "similar class" as 100.





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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,612



    Quote:
    There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100.


Hypocritical much? Your last sentence in this post is "As you say interviews are irrelevant" about a Jurgens interview that you tried to dismiss at every turn:

http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018020603105256&layout=thread

But here you are quoting Jurgens to try to make a point. Hilarious.




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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Orion has never been stated as equal to Superman or more powerful than him.



    Quote:
    Really? Never?


That's a young Superman who was taken by surprise by Orion. A few pages later he literally oneshots Orion.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/7lbEYUJj6lwxYwu2ipVjGsQgm4BFYLHqlJzXdUh5tM3wJg2DN5oSDdsfCbRYwSU4-vk4AFklVsKeaHXxRQwHS9wpZ95BLQJvEg3Qj2uSpBqnpWlR-6G8GE81v4wLQsWY0OOAEg=s1600

"He's surprised me twice now. No more playing around".

Straight up overpowered Orion with heat vision.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/tYuH1x7A3U3v6VCpvio85v4YD7lDC9OAZKu0TmjdwqzCEhj0U5GCcz98mSDL7XZVs9Qu_-VqPcnM0gaKyssd13IXBLN5iqXr35miOZRSqTZV8Zmd1qgWkkkvcf1-DBcuBFZ6Xg=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/VBGUTIGA-A2jm4rclKBbitfCMMChC9vXLMM_aejhWEhAaHm1YS6RYoPjvISAkVpd36DiZJcSj-BpSCLQPGhOtmR1pKJFv8Hc1zFSD1kJGFH9f52d8jUpvu2qwddlylOGVYgofA=s1600


    Quote:



    Quote:




    Quote:

      Quote:
      Darkseid is at least 30. He is in similar class as Galactus or Odin.



    Quote:
    You know that Odin is 100 on this scale, right? 30 is nowhere close to being in a "similar class" as 100.


So mark it 110.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



    Quote:

      Quote:
      There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100.



    Quote:
    Hypocritical much? Your last sentence in this post is "As you say interviews are irrelevant" about a Jurgens interview that you tried to dismiss at every turn:



    Quote:
    http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018020603105256&layout=thread


He was citing an old interview actually. And I didn't say Superman would beat Surfer basef on Jurgens.


    Quote:
    But here you are quoting Jurgens to try to make a point. Hilarious.


Oh you. Keep digging.



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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Incorrect. Superman was already stronger than Thor since Byrne era. He was still the strongest hero on earth while Thor wasn't. In fact Superman of year one era fought and stalemated savage Hulk who is at least Thor's equal in strength.



    Quote:
    In that book, Hulk outdoes him in tests of strength and Superman makes up for it with flight, surprise and speed.


Not even close. In fact when Luthor traps them both, it's Superman who throws Hulk outside when Hulk was unable to break the energy barrier.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Hardly. Heat vision has proved more devastating than anything Thor has produced save godblast which is a rarely used ability anyway.



    Quote:
    It's telling that you have to restrict Thor for Superman to match. The godblast has been used enough to be standard. But standard lighting surpasses Superman's hv:





Thor's godblast is used approximately under two writers, Dan Jurgens and Tom Defalco after Stan Lee introduced it.

Hardly standard.

And what are these random scenes supposed to portray? Superman has straight up incinerated class 100 bricks. Thor wishes he was that powerful via lightning.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Superman is a clear favorite against Thor and Surfer both.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        In fact Surfer was shown struggling against Cyborg Superman who Superman utterly stomped by the same writer. Surfer has also never beaten Thor while Superman has.



    Quote:
    Yet, Superman has been written struggling against Cyborg Superman. Surfer took Hulk down easier than Superman did a weaker Hulk. Surfer crushed Orion in a way that Superman has not even come close to doing. Standard Thor could not inflict as much damage to Surfer as he did Superman.


Not since 1995. Last time Superman simply punched through Henshaw and disabled him.

Merged Hulk was stronger than savage hulk.

Byrne's Surfer was an anomaly and above his standard power. Even then Brainiac crushed Orion far worse than Surfer did and Superman straight up crushed Brainiac.

Thor dented Surfer's head while weakened. He crushed Surfer with Warlock.

Don't make me laugh.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100.



    Quote:
    RC said that he said that. That's sort of hearsay.


Jurgens confirmed it.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



    Quote:
    I may not agree completely or even disagree about some of your points....



    Quote:
    The Darkseid statement of being in a similar class to Galactus and Odin is definitely not accurate - i like Darkseid as a character for the most part - when he is not being watered down.


Of course it's accurate. Odin and Galactus are both in skyfather class, same as Darkseid.


    Quote:
    Darkseid was treated as a lower weight class opponent than Galactus in the crossover - i believe Darkseid vs Galactus actually - or maybe the Surfer/Green Lantern one - it was the ninties - my memory isnt as good as it used to be lol.


That's because Byrne had a very high opinion of Galactus who in his opinion would treat Odin the same way. It's not how he is portrayed on average though.

And even there a few giants created by Darkseid overpowered Galactus.


    Quote:
    Darkseid even admits it i believe when he is pretty much defeated but states that he would never stop opposing Galactus as long as he tried taking what was his (Eating Apokolips).


Darkseid didn't admit defeat anywhere.


    Quote:
    I think the rest of what u said is a subjective and debatable but neither really right or wrong. I just like hearing other peoples opinions and thoughts.


Alright.


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Primetime


Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009
Posts: 225



    Quote:
    Not even close. In fact when Luthor traps them both, it's Superman who throws Hulk outside when Hulk was unable to break the energy barrier.


Sort of irrelevant. As you say, both are trapped. It requires one to throw the other out. Doesn't change the fact that twice in tests of strength, Hulk won.


    Quote:
    Thor's godblast is used approximately under two writers, Dan Jurgens and Tom Defalco after Stan Lee introduced it.


Oeming apparently used it. So that's at least 4 writers with at least two utilizing it multiple times and several possible uses that were not announced as such.


    Quote:
    Hardly standard.



    Quote:
    And what are these random scenes supposed to portray? Superman has straight up incinerated class 100 bricks. Thor wishes he was that powerful via lightning.


Name the incinerated bricks. What, a Doomsday incarnation of questionable durability?


    Quote:
    Not since 1995. Last time Superman simply punched through Henshaw and disabled him.



    Quote:
    Merged Hulk was stronger than savage hulk.


Merged Hulk supposedly had a higher base level, yet a lesser increase. And this Hulk had the Savage Banner safeguard.


    Quote:
    Byrne's Surfer was an anomaly and above his standard power. Even then Brainiac crushed Orion far worse than Surfer did and Superman straight up crushed Brainiac.


There have been several Surfer writers that wrote him equal to Byrne's.


    Quote:
    Thor dented Surfer's head while weakened. He crushed Surfer with Warlock.


And what did that dent achieve? Nothing.


    Quote:
    Don't make me laugh.



    Quote:
    Jurgens confirmed it.


No, he didn't address it. He addressed the volatility of the posters.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,612



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100.
      Hypocritical much? Your last sentence in this post is "As you say interviews are irrelevant" about a Jurgens interview that you tried to dismiss at every turn:



    Quote:

      Quote:
      http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018020603105256&layout=thread



    Quote:
    He was citing an old interview actually. And I didn't say Superman would beat Surfer basef on Jurgens.


Do you always flagrantly deny what's right there on the page? The first quote above is yours saying, "There is no precedent for Surfer to be a favorite against Superman. In fact Dan Jurgens said Superman would beat Surfer 99 times out of 100."


    Quote:

      Quote:
      But here you are quoting Jurgens to try to make a point. Hilarious.
    Oh you. Keep digging.


I'm digging? I just pointed out how you brazenly use one Jurgens statement (Superman > Surfer) as evidence while at the same time denying a whole host of Jurgens statements (Doomsday = Superman > Darkseid).




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,612



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Orion has never been stated as equal to Superman or more powerful than him.
      Really? Never?
    That's a young Superman who was taken by surprise by Orion.


This is rich. You used the exact same Superman as evidence of Darkseid's superiority over Superman right here by citing Superman Confidential:

http://comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018020203430570&layout=thread

Now it doesn't count for Orion because Superman is young but somehow it counts for Darkseid! You repeatedly change your standards depending on whether you like the character. The catalogue of you doing this is almost endless.



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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,596


Given Surfer's ability to manipulate energy and radiation and Superman's weaknesses to it. Seems fairly clear that Surfer holds a fair number of cards in the fight.

He was even able to tell the sort of energy Gladiator was vulnerable too with a brief examination.




Look Raist bunnies...
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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



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      Not even close. In fact when Luthor traps them both, it's Superman who throws Hulk outside when Hulk was unable to break the energy barrier.



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    Sort of irrelevant. As you say, both are trapped. It requires one to throw the other out. Doesn't change the fact that twice in tests of strength, Hulk won.


It's really not. Hulk threw Superman away but Superman was holding back. Then Superman came back, nearly oneshots Hulk and throws him to another country.

Superman was also shown as straight up more durable than Hulk along with being stronger by being able to breach the energy barrier when Hulk couldn't.


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      Thor's godblast is used approximately under two writers, Dan Jurgens and Tom Defalco after Stan Lee introduced it.



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    Oeming apparently used it. So that's at least 4 writers with at least two utilizing it multiple times and several possible uses that were not announced as such.


Oeming wasn't even aware of the term.

In the bios it was stated as Thor absorbing Durok's life essence using Odin force.

It's as niche as Superman using counter vibrations which is far more powerful than Godblast.


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      Hardly standard.

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        And what are these random scenes supposed to portray? Superman has straight up incinerated class 100 bricks. Thor wishes he was that powerful via lightning.



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    Name the incinerated bricks. What, a Doomsday incarnation of questionable durability?


Doomsday clones which were strong enough to overpower Wonder Woman and one clone taking attacks from 300 gogs to be koed.

He has also overpowered Blackrock with HV, destroyed Cyborg Superman's body with HV, blasted through shields Supergirl and John Stewart couldn't and flat out overpowered Hal Jordan.




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      Not since 1995. Last time Superman simply punched through Henshaw and disabled him.

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        Merged Hulk was stronger than savage hulk.



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    Merged Hulk supposedly had a higher base level, yet a lesser increase. And this Hulk had the Savage Banner safeguard.


No, merged Hulk was straight up stronger than savage hulk. Savage Hulk was unable to beat Glob and merged Hulk straight up ripped Glob apart.

There is no mention of savage banner conditions in DC vs Marvel.


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      Byrne's Surfer was an anomaly and above his standard power. Even then Brainiac crushed Orion far worse than Surfer did and Superman straight up crushed Brainiac.



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    There have been several Surfer writers that wrote him equal to Byrne's.


Name one.


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      Thor dented Surfer's head while weakened. He crushed Surfer with Warlock.



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    And what did that dent achieve? Nothing.


Is this supposed to make sense? It showed Surfer is less invulnerable than the likes of Superman.


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      Don't make me laugh.

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        Jurgens confirmed it.



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    No, he didn't address it. He addressed the volatility of the posters.


He did.


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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 1,210



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          Orion has never been stated as equal to Superman or more powerful than him.
        Really? Never?
      That's a young Superman who was taken by surprise by Orion.



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    This is rich. You used the exact same Superman as evidence of Darkseid's superiority over Superman right here by citing Superman Confidential:



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    http://comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2018020203430570&layout=thread


Superman was aware about Darkseid and still got almost killed.

He overpowered Orion twice when he got serious and stomped Mantis who has overpowered Orion in past.


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    Now it doesn't count for Orion because Superman is young but somehow it counts for Darkseid! You repeatedly change your standards depending on whether you like the character. The catalogue of you doing this is almost endless.


Superman was playing around with Orion and got stunned for a few panels.

That does not shows Orion as being more powerful than Superman. Superman has outperformed Orion against Darkseid, Doomsday, White Martians, Superboy, Mantis, Brainiac and Infinity Man.

These are how they are portrayed. Orion is a peer to Superman when he is holding back. Nothing more.


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