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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658


So, the last several years have had MOS, B vs. S, Wonder Woman, and JLA...Does Suicide Squad count... for DC

The Marvel movies have been going strong for a decade....

My question is, why do you think Marvel movies are doing better, do you like them better?

How about the Arrowverse, and Agents of Shield...Preferences, thoughts, etc?

I will post my own thoughts shortly, but want to get some of your take so I don't taint your thought process.


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658


So, I liked Wonder Woman a lot, and I enjoyed Suicide Squad, but I found JLA to be mediocre at best, and I felt Bats vs. Superman went on too long...Doomsday was an afterthought, and Superman's death didn't have the impact it could have. MOS was OK, not great IMO, but better than JLA or B vs. Superman.

I actually enjoyed about 75% of Suicide Squad, but felt the Joker was overused and actually took away from the cohesion of the movie...villain wasn't great, but acting was good, and I liked some of the characterizations. Still wasn't great.

For the Marvel movies, I think some of them get too much credit, but save for Iron Man 3, I've really enjoyed all of them. I think Spider Man Homecoming is one of the best movies I've seen in a long time, and I also really liked Ragnarok.

On the TV side, I like that Marvel is still in the same shared universe for Agent Carter and the Shield show, but I'm not the biggest fan of Agents of Shield...it started OK, but they've gone too hard and heavy into Kree and Inhumans...I understand why, but that makes it a loser for me.

As far as the DC TV goes, I like the Arrowverse, the interconnectivity, the characters, the actors, etc. I still think Legends is the weakest, though I have liked Rory as a character...frankly, I like the Arrow and Flash characters enough that I would have preferred them to what we saw in JLA...


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,832


They are just better movies with far more enjoyable characters. Not sure what other way to put it. One can argue they are formulaic but many movies of this sort will.

The DC movies generally fall into the trap of taking themselves too seriously at times. That can be a nice change of pace but they are often full of more bland characters and not as entertaining scripts.

Wonder Woman is the clear exception to this, which was a pretty good and enjoyable film.

As for the TV shows. I have honestly not watched anything DC has put out other than animated stuff. For Marvel I have only seen the Netflix shows and a few scattered Agents of SHIELD.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,010




    Quote:
    So, the last several years have had MOS, B vs. S, Wonder Woman, and JLA...Does Suicide Squad count... for DC



    Quote:
    The Marvel movies have been going strong for a decade....



    Quote:
    My question is, why do you think Marvel movies are doing better, do you like them better?


    Quote:
    How about the Arrowverse, and Agents of Shield...Preferences, thoughts, etc?



    Quote:
    I will post my own thoughts shortly, but want to get some of your take so I don't taint your thought process.

It is especially strange to me that DC movies does so poorly considering how strong their series and anime are compared to Marvel.

DC characters are empty and humorless. Their stories often making no sense whatsoever on top of being rushed.

Meanwhile, at Marvel, they took the time to develop their characters and let the public bound with them. We care about what happens to them. Marvel provided fun large public movies in a well implemented fashion that took the time it needed. 

Individually, the first two Batman movies are not bad movies at all. They are even better than most Marvel movies IMO. Same goes for WW to a lesser degree.

MoS was very flawed, true, but definitely not bad, nor botched. The heart was there, but they didn't use their head. They just made very bad decisions on key issues preventing a very promising movie to fulfill its potential.

DK rises was meh, and Suicide Squad just bad. However, what really hurt DC was their two last block busters: BvS and JLA.

Most important of all, they failed so bad at merging the movies into a coherent universe like Marvel did. 

What happened to the plot and character development we have in DC's animated universe? 

Don't get me wrong, DC does way better/cooler action scenes and fights. I'll give them that. But the cost the movie pays for this has too often been too high.

**Edit** I also wanted to add that, to be fair, DC always, so far, came with FAR better soundtracks. Poor consolation, but there it is. Just listen to the score of MoS, Batman and WW. It is pure awesomeness unique and memorable.

DC needs to go back to the basic and be ready to take its time and stop caring about what Marvel does. They have all they need to do superb movies. Less suits involvement, more artistic consideration.





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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,738




    Quote:
    My question is, why do you think Marvel movies are doing better, do you like them better?


Marvel isn't afraid to show humor while DC shies away from it.

Marvel isn't afraid to say the Super-Hero names more than once. DC is acting like it's too silly to say their Super-Hero names.

Marvel actually makes me feel like I'm watching a Super-Hero movie while DC does everything it can to make me, and the audience, feel like they "are not" watching a Super-Hero (they have actually admitted this). On that note, why bother DC?

Marvel isn't afraid to show bright colors without draining everything of color in their movies. DC loves to drain all the color out of their movies. Might as well start filming in black and white.

Marvel knows how Super-Heroes work, DC does not.

Marvel stays true to the original source material while having the freedom to do their own thing with their own take on the movies they make. DC, on the other hand, doesn't have the slightest clue on how to stay true to the original source material (MoS and Super Necksnapper is a perfect example of this). They think that dark and grim will work with every hero when it doesn't.


    Quote:
    How about the Arrowverse, and Agents of Shield...Preferences, thoughts, etc?


The TV shows, on the DC side, WERE SIGNIFICANTLY better than any of the movies with the exception of the Arrow (which started out great then turned to utter crap), Supergirl (great first season but turned to complete crap afterwards) and Legends (It started out ok, but it's utter crap now). That and other "stuff" they keep showing on practically every show they put on the air. I had hopes for Black Lightning only for it to turn into pretty much the same thing too. Now, the only DC show that is showing these days that isn't total crap is the Flash, but even it's barely average right now since nothing they do in the show ever makes any modicum of sense (especially if time travel is involved). So, I'd say that overall, the DC shows aren't any better than the movies right now. The Flash is barely better but not by much. But every single one of them used to be so much better...

The Marvel Netflix shows are too dark for the movies even though a majority of them have gotten rave reviews. Plus, they are way too shy to have movie references and easter eggs in those shows, despite claiming they exist in the same universe (which I refuse to believe until I see the show runners stop being lazy and SHOW US otherwise). I'll never understand why they are being so shy about it. They say they have to earn it, but that's a load of crap. It's ridiculous! And don't even get me started on the show runners taking bloody FOREVER before they show the hero of the TV show in their Super-Hero costume! Meh.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658


but aren't very good now...actually, I think Arrow is a little bit better than it was, but still not where it was early on.

I'm still enjoying Flash, though I think I get a little annoyed with a little too much focus in season long story arcs....I used to think that was preferable, but I think we've put too much focus on it....


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658


in that the Marvel movies feel more like Superhero movies and are more willing to incorporate humor, and do so pretty effectively....

I think that rings true to a large degree. I think there are other contributing factors though.

Marvel kind of stumbled onto a formula of teasing some upcoming stuff at the end of movies, but also let us not have to spend every film doing an origin...meaning that we get more ability to develop the antagonists....JLA forced characters together and didn't do a great job of it, and also didn't develop the villain well...so it fell flat. It also made it feel like they needed Superman for anything...too dependent on one powerful character.

Doomsday, the death of Superman gets tacked on to the end of an a movie spent building up the angst that Batman has over Superman...sorry, but it would have been better to build the JLA up first so they could fight Doomsday and fail, and do a PROPER job of the death of Superman, which deserved its own event...

Yeah, I can say 'poor writing', but I don't know what constraints anyone was working under. Marvel developed the interconnectivity more organically, so were first and foremost concerned with making a good Iron Man movie, and then Hulk movie (though the Hulk wasn't as successful).

DC had the opportunity to plan a little better, and used it to focus only on the later result, not a quality film at the start that builds. I think they could have learned and done a better job than Marvel, but every film feels like a restart, not a continuation....




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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 767


I think DC has focused way too much in pushing Superman and Batman without developing and exposing their other heroes. How many movies have we seen between the two? Their movie market is over saturated with just two guys! Wonder Woman was long overdue and did well because the public was probably more than likely burned out on their two franchise heroes. Especially now that Batman vs. Superman and JLA flopped at the box office.

DC should have had an Aquaman/Flash movie before JLA was released or at the very least made JLA a two part-movie to properly develop and showcase Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman's abilities. Now their importance to the team was destroyed by beefing up Superman's powers. Why? Superman has had several movies. Everyone knows who he is and what he can do and these guys have had none. They were shown to be absolutely worthless in terms of contributing something--anything to the team that Superman cannot. A two-part movie would have made the threat to Earth more epic and meaningful. Part One JLA taking on the minions of Darkseid without Superman and winning until Part Two, Darkseid is forced to personally deal with JLA, then Superman shows up to save the day. And no Darkseid appearance in the movie? Total disappointment to say the least. That's the ultimate insult to the movie and the fans. Everything seemed rushed and forced which is why a two-part movie would have made much more sense. Actually it would have been a trilogy beginning with Batman vs. Superman.

MOS vs. Superman was too dark, no humor to connection to anyone in the movie and many of the scenes didn't make sense at all. I remember that flash back scene in the movie where you're completely lost trying to figure out what's going on, did I miss something? Then once you figure it out, you think, was that really relevant in the movie? Battle scenes were mediocre at best. Batman is killing Superman with Kryptonite (Supes can't even stand in the presence of the green stuff) and the next moment Supes is delivering the killing blow to Doomsday with Kryptonite in hand. Really? Couldn't they have given a little shout-out to Wonder Woman and made her deliver the final blow given it was her debut and Supes can't function around Kryptonite? Why does DC push the glory of Supes at the expense of their other characters?

Marvel on the other hand clearly had a long term plan to develop more of their heroes by giving them their shot at the box office. How many movies are being released or been released with B-C type characters? Black Panther, Ant man and the Wasp, Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, etc, etc. DC should have debuted their B-C type characters long ago like Shazam, Nightwing, Matian Manhunter, or at least made brief appearances. Also Marvel executes a more balancing act by not showcasing one or two of their heroes at the expense of downplaying others in their team movies--THEY ARE A TEAM! In Avengers, Cap, Widow, Hawkeye, heck Shield Agent Coulson all had their moments to shine in the sun while Marvel made sure to inject some humor to stay connected to their audience!




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,695



    Quote:
    So, the last several years have had MOS, B vs. S, Wonder Woman, and JLA...Does Suicide Squad count... for DC


Yes. The DC Expanded Universe (DCEU) is basically every live-action DC movie after THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.


    Quote:
    My question is, why do you think Marvel movies are doing better, do you like them better?


Not all the Marvel movies are that good, but the DCEU movies are just far worse on the whole, and the best Marvel movies are far better. To give you perspective of where I’m coming from, here are my rankings of all MCU and DCEU movies:

1. The Avengers
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
3. Iron Man
4. Thor
5. Avengers: Age of Ultron
6. Thor: Ragnarok
7. Thor: The Dark World
8. Guardians of the Galaxy
9. Captain America: Civil War
10. Ant-Man
11. Spider-Man: Homecoming
12. Wonder Woman
13. Doctor Strange
14. Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2
15. Captain America: The First Avenger
16. Iron Man Three
17. Iron Man 2
18. Justice League
19. Man of Steel
20. Suicide Squad
21. The Incredible Hulk
22. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

I'd say 1-3 are great, 4-6 are very good, 7-13 are fine entertainments, 14-16 are mediocre, 17-19 are bad, 20-22 are godawful.

The explanation is that Zach Snyder is a horrible writer, director, and producer and he drove the DCEU into the ground. Notably, the most praised DCEU film is Wonder Woman, which Snyder did not work on. If you watch Snyder’s pre-DCEU films, it’s clear that the only thing he’s good at are flashy visuals. He can’t write worth a damn, his plots are juvenile, his characters are cardboard caricatures, and he embraces that 1990s comics aesthetic that somehow thinks grim and gritty is automatically cool. That aesthetic is particularly wrong for Superman.

Kevin Feige had a vision for the MCU and he executed it well, certainly not close to perfect, but well. The MCU movies were plotted out well in advance and patiently revealed and built up each character so that when they finally came together, it meant something. The MCU gave each major character their own movie, and Marvel could give each new character an extra push by tossing another character into their movie. Black Widow stars in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Falcon gets a cameo in Ant-Man, Iron Man plays a significant role in Spider-Man: Homecoming, Hulk guest stars in Thor: Ragnarok, and so on.

The DCEU tried to rush everything into BvS and Justice League and did it extremely clumsily. You were never going to do justice to the um, Justice League by trying to develop Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash all in one movie that also had to give significant screen time to Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman, not to mention totally forgettable villain, Steppenwolf. And given all of DC’s many iconic villains, why pick a C-lister like Steppenwolf who nobody knows or cares about? Justice League is your Avengers. It’s time to lead big. Also, by making Superman look superior to the rest of the Justice League, in their debut movie nonetheless, diminishes the rest of them. The animated Justice League/Justice League Unlimited is infinitely better than the movie.


    Quote:
    How about the Arrowverse, and Agents of Shield...Preferences, thoughts, etc?


I have to say I don't care for any of either DC or Marvel tv series except for Daredevil and Jessica Jones. I have not checked out Runaways.




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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,010



Your list is soooooooooooo different from mine. It is indeed a subjective thing.



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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,913



TV wise - Daredevil and Jessica Jones are the best things produced.





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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,158


... even their bad movies (Avengers 2, Iron Man 2&3) still work fine as fun adventure movies.

DC's movies OTOH, are just plain bad. Wonder Woman being the exception to the rule. Movie tickets are too expensive. People don't want to pay that much for trash. JLA was a step in the right direction and wasn't completely awful, but its box office take was seriously hindered by being a follow-up to MoS and BvS.


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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 767



    Quote:
    in that the Marvel movies feel more like Superhero movies and are more willing to incorporate humor, and do so pretty effectively....



    Quote:
    I think that rings true to a large degree. I think there are other contributing factors though.



    Quote:
    Marvel kind of stumbled onto a formula of teasing some upcoming stuff at the end of movies, but also let us not have to spend every film doing an origin...meaning that we get more ability to develop the antagonists....JLA forced characters together and didn't do a great job of it, and also didn't develop the villain well...so it fell flat. It also made it feel like they needed Superman for anything...too dependent on one powerful character.



    Quote:
    Doomsday, the death of Superman gets tacked on to the end of an a movie spent building up the angst that Batman has over Superman...sorry, but it would have been better to build the JLA up first so they could fight Doomsday and fail, and do a PROPER job of the death of Superman, which deserved its own event...



    Quote:
    Yeah, I can say 'poor writing', but I don't know what constraints anyone was working under. Marvel developed the interconnectivity more organically, so were first and foremost concerned with making a good Iron Man movie, and then Hulk movie (though the Hulk wasn't as successful).



    Quote:
    DC had the opportunity to plan a little better, and used it to focus only on the later result, not a quality film at the start that builds. I think they could have learned and done a better job than Marvel, but every film feels like a restart, not a continuation....


I won't even pay to go to see the next DC movie unless I hear good reviews about it. DC has really set a tone of mediocrity with BvS and JLA. Wonder Woman gives them a sliver of hope though, so there's that.

Deathstroke and Legion of Doom looks promising but DC finds a way to bomb things that should have been a slam-dunk set-up for future success. Opportunity to create, incorporate, domino great stories suppressed possibly lost. Future euphoria lost in the wind.

A real shame too. Marvel has no-doubt left them in the dust.

Can't wait to see Black Panther!!! Previews look totally AWESOME!!!






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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,913



The Christian Bale Batman and Wonder Woman films can go toe to toe with the Marvel ones.

Due to the timing, they didn't capitalise on this, which is a shame as Ben 'Daredevil' Affleck played an older experienced Batman anyway.

If they could have brought this into canon, then they could have had used Batman as somrone who is seeing these new superpowerd beings into the world.

DC wanted the cake straight away, they wanted to compete with Marvel and didn't want to put in the solo films first.





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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658


1. Spider Man, Homecoming: they did a good job with the villain,
the characterizations, and I felt the characters had depth
and had an overall good story
2. The Avengers: very well put together ensemble movie
3. Iron Man: started it all and did a very good job
4. Thor: Ragnarok: I really enjoyed the movie...solid plot, good acting
a little too much humor though
5. Guardians of the Galaxy maybe because my expectations were low, but
I loved this one
6. Thor: The Dark World
7. Ant-Man, again maybe because my expectations were so low
8. Avengers: Age of Ultron
9. Wonder Woman
10. Captain America Winter Soldier
11. Captain America, first Avenger
12. Iron Man 2...villain was mediocre, but overall I enjoyed it quite
a bit
13. Thor. I enjoyed parts quite a bit, but parts felt rushed
14. The Incredible Hulk. I think its underrated...not great, but
again enjoyable IMO. Good job of incorporating Stark Tech
15. Man of Steel: IMO wasn't that bad...wasn't that good either with
mischaracterisation of Supes IMO
16. Dr. Strange. It was enjoyable, but IMO weaker than most of the
other Marvel movies.
17. Suicide Squad. This is where I start getting to the point where
I don't care for the movies too much...I actually enjoyed SS, but
it had a lot of problems, and there were a lot of things that really
annoyed me
18. GOTG 2: In fairness, I should watch this again...I didn't pay
as close attention as I should have and was working on some
documentation while watching, but it never grabbed me
19.Iron Man 3: acting was good, but I really disliked this movie for
some reason. It didn't feel as much like Iron Man, I didn't like
the villains, or the resolution, and I didn't care for Extremis much
in the comics, liked it less in the movie
20. JLA. Just fell kind of flat.
21. Batman v. Superman: The first 3/4 was 'meh', but the inclusion of
Doomsday actually pissed me off. Not making the DOS a whole movie
unto itself is almost unforgivable. Should have ended long before
it did...



I missed something in there, but I think you get the point.

I'll also note that I think the Batman trilogy was pretty good, though I have a lower opinion of some of them than others...I think Batman Begins was actually the best of the three, and the DK with the Joker should have ended earlier, went on too long...it WOULD be my favorite of the three if it had ended earlier...

I also want to state that while they don't hold up from a CGI perspective, I still really like the Toby McGuire Spider Man movies...they were well done, well acted, and did a good job with the villains.



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,695



    Quote:
    20. JLA. Just fell kind of flat.


I gave my full review here on the JLA board:

https://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=jla-2017111902315708


    Quote:
    21. Batman v. Superman: The first 3/4 was 'meh', but the inclusion of Doomsday actually pissed me off. Not making the DOS a whole movie unto itself is almost unforgivable. Should have ended long before it did...


Yeah, that was really a lost opportunity making Doomsday a 15-minute villain.


    Quote:
    I'll also note that I think the Batman trilogy was pretty good, though I have a lower opinion of some of them than others...I think Batman Begins was actually the best of the three, and the DK with the Joker should have ended earlier, went on too long...it WOULD be my favorite of the three if it had ended earlier...


BATMAN BEGINS was my favorite too of the trilogy. THE DARK KNIGHT just has so many plot holes and plot contrivances starting with how omniscient the Joker is. With every one of the Joker's plots, if one of a dozen things went wrong, all variables out of his control, his plots would not have worked. Definitely, DC movies would look much better if you included the Nolan films, but they're not part of the DCEU. But if you're going to include the Nolan films, you'd also have to include the execrable GREEN LANTERN, which I'd rank even below BvS. Wow, that movie was bad, so bad that DC needed to give the character more breathing space and leave him out of Justice League.


    Quote:
    I also want to state that while they don't hold up from a CGI perspective, I still really like the Toby McGuire Spider Man movies...they were well done, well acted, and did a good job with the villains.


Yep, the Sam Raimi-Tobey Maguire SPIDER-MANs were good movies. I even think the third one is underrated. It was a little campy and Topher Grace was a poor Venom, but Venom had great look, Sandman mostly worked, and Harry Osborn coming to the rescue and tag teaming with Spider-Man in the final battle was entertaining.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,695





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UName


Member Since: Tue Mar 10, 2015
Posts: 572


Awesome/very good:

Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2
Thor: Ragnarok
Guardians of the Galaxy
Wonder Woman

Ok/meh:

Avengers: Age of Ultron
Justice League
Thor: The Dark World

Did not see the others yet. Next up, Black Panther and Infinity War!



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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,695



    Quote:

    Your list is soooooooooooo different from mine. It is indeed a subjective thing.


Let's look at general reception then. Out of curiosity, I tried to get a measure of how all 22 of these movies were received by general consensus, both by moviegoers and critics, so I pulled the IMDB rating (1st number), the Rotten Tomatoes Tomatometer (2nd number), and the Rotten Tomatoes average rating (3rd number). The Tomatometer simply looks at the percentage of critics who liked the movie but that doesn't capture how passionately they liked or disliked the movie, which the average rating does. Finally, I calculated a fourth number, the average between IMDB rating and the average between the Tomatometer and average rating so as critics aren't more heavily weighted. So the fourth number provides a consensus reached between audiences and critics. Here is how the MCU and DCEU movies compare:

1. The Avengers (81, 92, 80, 83.50)
2. Guardians of the Galaxy (81, 91, 77, 82.50)
3. Iron Man (79, 94, 77, 82.25)
4. Thor: Ragnarok (80, 92, 75, 81.75)
5. Captain America: Civil War (78, 91, 77, 81.00)
6. Captain America: The Winter Soldier (78, 89, 76, 80.25)
7. Spider-Man: Homecoming (75, 92, 77, 79.75)
8. Wonder Woman (75, 92, 76, 79.50)
9. Doctor Strange (75, 90, 73, 78.25)
10. Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2 (77, 82, 72, 77.00)
11. Ant-Man (73, 82, 68, 74.00)
12. Iron Man Three (72, 80, 70, 73.50)
13. Avengers: Age of Ultron (74, 75, 67, 72.50)
14. Captain America: The First Avenger (69, 80, 70, 72.00)
15. Thor (70, 77, 67, 71.00)
16. Iron Man 2 (70, 73, 65, 69.50)
17. Thor: The Dark World (70, 66, 62, 67.00)
18. The Incredible Hulk (68, 67, 62, 66.25)
19. Man of Steel (71, 55, 62, 64.75)
20. Justice League (69, 40, 53, 57.75)
21. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (66, 27, 49, 52.00)
22. Suicide Squad (61, 26, 48, 49.00)

Even surprising to me, 4 of the 5 DCEU movies rank at the very bottom with only WONDER WOMAN scoring high. At the moment, BLACK PANTHER has the highest Rotten Tomatoes rating in both Tomatometer and average rating of any movie on this list.



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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,010




    Quote:

      Quote:

      Your list is soooooooooooo different from mine. It is indeed a subjective thing.



    Quote:
    Let's look at general reception then. Out of curiosity, I tried to get a measure of how all 22 of these movies were received by general consensus, both by moviegoers and critics, so I pulled the IMDB rating (1st number), the Rotten Tomatoes Tomatometer (2nd number), and the Rotten Tomatoes average rating (3rd number). The Tomatometer simply looks at the percentage of critics who liked the movie but that doesn't capture how passionately they liked or disliked the movie, which the average rating does. Finally, I calculated a fourth number, the average between IMDB rating and the average between the Tomatometer and average rating so as critics aren't more heavily weighted. So the fourth number provides a consensus reached between audiences and critics. Here is how the MCU and DCEU movies compare:
It is an interesting exercise, but ultimately not representing my personal taste and perception.


    Quote:
    1. The Avengers (81, 92, 80, 83.50)
    2. Guardians of the Galaxy (81, 91, 77, 82.50)
    3. Iron Man (79, 94, 77, 82.25)
    4. Thor: Ragnarok (80, 92, 75, 81.75)
    5. Captain America: Civil War (78, 91, 77, 81.00)
    6. Captain America: The Winter Soldier (78, 89, 76, 80.25)
    7. Spider-Man: Homecoming (75, 92, 77, 79.75)
    8. Wonder Woman (75, 92, 76, 79.50)
    9. Doctor Strange (75, 90, 73, 78.25)
    10. Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2 (77, 82, 72, 77.00)
    11. Ant-Man (73, 82, 68, 74.00)
    12. Iron Man Three (72, 80, 70, 73.50)
    13. Avengers: Age of Ultron (74, 75, 67, 72.50)
    14. Captain America: The First Avenger (69, 80, 70, 72.00)
    15. Thor (70, 77, 67, 71.00)
    16. Iron Man 2 (70, 73, 65, 69.50)
    17. Thor: The Dark World (70, 66, 62, 67.00)
    18. The Incredible Hulk (68, 67, 62, 66.25)
    19. Man of Steel (71, 55, 62, 64.75)
    20. Justice League (69, 40, 53, 57.75)
    21. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (66, 27, 49, 52.00)
    22. Suicide Squad (61, 26, 48, 49.00)



    Quote:
    Even surprising to me, 4 of the 5 DCEU movies rank at the very bottom with only WONDER WOMAN scoring high. At the moment, BLACK PANTHER has the highest Rotten Tomatoes rating in both Tomatometer and average rating of any movie on this list.



The 3 last movie from this list are the same I had on mine. For me, Guardians of the Galaxy was better and more enjoyable than Avengers, but both were at the top of the list. Vol 2 was definitely not as good even if very enjoyable. Same for Age of Ultron that I personally never felt the desire to watch again unlike most on the rest of the list.

I personally prefer the first Thor to the last one they did (was not a fan of the humorous tone they went for as it killed a lot of tension for me). The dark world was just bad to me and has no place even above man of steel (not joking).

Wonder woman is better than the first Captain america for me, but not better than winter soldier. I enjoyed WW more than any of the Thor movie. However, I consider the first Thor movie a tad superior because of the character development in the movie. Especially Loki.

The first Iron man was great and belong somewhere close to the top of the list. Iron man 2 and 3, however, were very forgettable and I rate them below man of steel both for enjoyment and quality.

The incredible Hulk was not bad, but definitely belong where it is on the list compared to the rest and, yes, also below MoS for how enjoyable it was, the special effects, the music, the action and the acting.

I also thought ant-man was a stronger/better movie than Dr Strange. Dr Strange is too high on this list for reasons I cant explain. I had a good time watching it, but its rated too high here IMO.

Spiderman homecoming was a good movie, but not great for me. I would place it somewhere in the middle.

I'm surprised nobody rated civil war. I personally liked civil war, but not as much as winter soldier.




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Thurisaz


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,691


I break them down by letter grade (A to F) and then rank them in each category.

A - Captain America: The Winter Soldier
A - The Avengers
A - Iron Man
A - Guardians of the Galaxy
A - Captain America: Civil War

All of these movies were fantastic in my opinion. I can watch them again and again. It's really splitting hairs to pick a favorite but I would go with Winter Solider. Loved the political intrigue, the commentary on government surveillance and the back and forth between Cap and Widow.

B – Thor
B - Captain America: The First Avenger
B - Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2
B - Ant-Man
B - Spider-Man: Homecoming
B - Doctor Strange

Hmmm. I didn't intend for these to be mostly origin movies but it worked out that way. All solid, but not perfect or necessarily ones I would watch over and over.

C - Avengers: Age of Ultron
C - Thor: The Dark World
C - Iron Man 2
C - Wonder Woman
C - Iron Man 3

These movies all had issues but were still okay. Age of Ultron got the hatchet job in editing, Thor 2 had a terribly underdeveloped villain, Wonder Woman's act 3 and Gadot's feeble acting skills pushed it down the list and similarly the Mandarin thing and finale of Iron Man 3 made it a C at best.

D - The Incredible Hulk
D - Man of Steel
D - Thor: Ragnarok
D - Justice League

These movies just plain sucked. A task to watch and ones I would never revisit. Hulk is the best of the bunch but a flawed CGI fest. The less said about Man of Steel the better. A derivative, poorly scripted, poorly acted, poorly directed mess of a film that set the DCU down a path it cannot recover from. The fact that I put Thor 3 after it is a testament to how badly that movie was botched. Others may disagree but for me it is the worst Marvel movie by a wide margin. The humor was ill-placed, sophomoric and unfunny. The plot that remained once you stripped all the bad jokes away was just a rehash of the first Thor and the addition of the Hulk added nothing. Instead it took valuable screen time from Blanchett's engaging Hela who instead of being developed was given reams of exposition to spout at Skurge in order to establish who she was. Lazy film making at its finest. But still better than Justice League.

F - Suicide Squad
F - Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

As bad as the Ds all were there has to be a special place for these two monstrosities. Not a single word of praise for either.


In terms of TV, I really enjoy the Daredevil series. Season 1 and the Kingpin in particular but season 2 was solid. Jessica Jones was pretty good too and I liked the Punisher. The remainder of the Netflix shows didn't do it for me.

The CW stuff from DC just isn't my cup of tea. I watched a couple episodes of Arrow and a few of Flash but I just don't care for the CW style. All of its shows follow the same campy villain of the week formula and they don't have any decent actors.

I haven't seen any of the other DC or Marvel shows except for the first half season of Shield which was a train wreck. So, overall the TV stuff has been a letdown except for a few of the Netflix series.





[URL=http://s1362.photobucket.com/user/wulabo/media/Doom_zps60271c02.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r693/wulabo/Doom_zps60271c02.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,913



I hadn't read the spoilers, but it went on to long. A couple in our group walked out.

I felt I had to stay. When Doomsday came out, I got really angry as I knew I would have to spend another half an hour in the cinema. My friends told to me to calm down as I was swearing at the thought of the film. I kept making stupid impressions of Matt Damon, going 'Martha, no, that's my mum, let's be friends' all the way back to the car park.

I wanted it to be over. I spent 6 months in Bosnia and 6 months in Iraq. This film felt like it lasted longer.

I put off Wonder Woman because off this and I refuse to watch Justice League.





Moderator: Spiderman Board, Moderator: Star Trek Board
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makkari1


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,536



    Quote:
    The explanation is that Zach Snyder is a horrible writer, director, and producer and he drove the DCEU into the ground. Notably, the most praised DCEU film is Wonder Woman, which Snyder did not work on. If you watch Snyder’s pre-DCEU films, it’s clear that the only thing he’s good at are flashy visuals. He can’t write worth a damn, his plots are juvenile, his characters are cardboard caricatures, and he embraces that 1990s comics aesthetic that somehow thinks grim and gritty is automatically cool. That aesthetic is particularly wrong for Superman.

Agreed, Zach Snyder's style has long since passed and is not endearing fans in today's market. Batman and Superman are played out. Fans are dying to see other DC characters hit the big screen and that's why WW did so well because BM & SM were not the main hero. 


    Quote:
    Kevin Feige had a vision for the MCU and he executed it well, certainly not close to perfect, but well. The MCU movies were plotted out well in advance and patiently revealed and built up each character so that when they finally came together, it meant something. The MCU gave each major character their own movie, and Marvel could give each new character an extra push by tossing another character into their movie. Black Widow stars in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Falcon gets a cameo in Ant-Man, Iron Man plays a significant role in Spider-Man: Homecoming, Hulk guest stars in Thor: Ragnarok, and so on.


Agreed.


    Quote:
    The DCEU tried to rush everything into BvS and Justice League and did it extremely clumsily. You were never going to do justice to the um, Justice League by trying to develop Aquaman, Cyborg, and Flash all in one movie that also had to give significant screen time to Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman, not to mention totally forgettable villain, Steppenwolf. And given all of DC’s many iconic villains, why pick a C-lister like Steppenwolf who nobody knows or cares about? Justice League is your Avengers. It’s time to lead big. Also, by making Superman look superior to the rest of the Justice League, in their debut movie nonetheless, diminishes the rest of them. The animated Justice League/Justice League Unlimited is infinitely better than the movie.
 

So true, DC rushed their big movies trying to play catch up to Marvel who has being doing this for years and from past experience sometimes things just can't be rushed. You can't age wine over night into a great vintage, you can't make a stew in a 2 minute microwave and expect for it to be good quality. You can't tell a comic story in 1 movie and expect the fans to fall in line. DC is at Darkseid's lieutenant already and its just 2 movies really guys?   


    Quote:

      Quote:
      How about the Arrowverse, and Agents of Shield...Preferences, thoughts, etc?
Two great series and Arrowverse  is good because Superman and Batman are not the main heroes. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is just riding the coattails of the movies which is fine. DC should make the movies from the TV series since it is better and more expanded.  






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Visitor


Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 767


That's for sure. Personally both to me are just really bad.

DC needs to read this forum to understand what prep time means to creating a good movie. First appearance ever of JLA on the big screen is something you're not suppose to screw up.

It was the same with Green Lantern....really really bad....so much it's most likely why he wasn't in the JLA movie.

I doubt DC will be able to recover from these busts. Maybe, but man they haven't done themselves any favors at all. They really should have incorporated B-C characters into the b-zillion Superman/Batman movies to get exposure testing public interest and building up fan base.

Right now if they release another Superman or Batman movie, I doubt many folks will be excited about it.




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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094


DC needs to go back to the basic and be ready to take its time and stop caring about what Marvel does. They have all they need to do superb movies. Less suits involvement, more artistic consideration.

Better than Ragnaroks immigrant song?!?!?! ;P



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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094



    Quote:
    but aren't very good now...actually, I think Arrow is a little bit better than it was, but still not where it was early on.



    Quote:
    I'm still enjoying Flash, though I think I get a little annoyed with a little too much focus in season long story arcs....I used to think that was preferable, but I think we've put too much focus on it....





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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094


>


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 2,094


1. Iron Man - I am biased cause he is my guy and I feel we wouldn't have all these current great MU movies if it wasn't for how great this one was. That said any of the top 6 imo are almost interchangeable.
2. The Avengers - this is how a team movie should work
3. Thor: Ragnarok - finally delivering a Thor great
4. Guardians of the Galaxy - so much better than expected
5. Spider-Man: Homecoming - great characterizations
6. Captain America Civil War - so much better than the books were showing both sides as having very god points
7. Avengers: Age of Ultron
8. Iron Man 3 - I supposed I just liked seeing Stark pull a Batman
9. Captain America: The Winter Soldier - very good movie but overated imo...maybe because I still think Bucky should have stayed dead
10. Ant-Man - what a shockingly nice surprise again from the MCU
11. Thor
12. Guardians of the Galaxy, Vol. 2 - thought very good movie but not as good as the first which might just have been raised expectations
13. Doctor Strange
14. Captain America: The First Avenger
15. Iron Man 2
16. Wonder Woman - think this movie gets far overatted. It was a good Captain America 1.5 movie...some guy called Steve flying a plane at the end and "sacrificing himself" to stop some crazy device. More Nazi-like Germans even in WW1 and a rather cgi let down finale. Still I liked it...just not amazing imo.
17. Justice League - if Just for the scene where Supes takes them all on
18. Man of Steel
19. Thor: The Dark World9.
20. The Incredible Hulk
21. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
- Batman activing like and idiot...the worst Lex of all time a subpar Doomsday and the "Martha" kept this from being any good...ok film to watch overall but such a let down
22. Suicide Squad - this movie sucked...just absolutely sucky Will movie. He should go back to Hankock


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Braugi


Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 658


we just haven't gotten them...and its hard to do a reboot in less than a decade IMO....


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