Community >> View Thread

Author
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118


I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.

I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.

"Give an example of systemic racism."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.


Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:
    I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.


I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.


    Quote:
    I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.


Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.

For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.

For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.

A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.

This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.

The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.


    Quote:
    "Give an example of systemic racism."



    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM



    Quote:
    Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.


I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.

It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.

I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.

The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.

I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.

Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 10
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.



    Quote:
    I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.



    Quote:
    Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.



    Quote:
    For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.



    Quote:
    For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.



    Quote:
    A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.



    Quote:
    This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.



    Quote:
    The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      "Give an example of systemic racism."

      Quote:

        Quote:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.



    Quote:
    I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.



    Quote:
    It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.



    Quote:
    I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.



    Quote:
    The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.


Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race.


    Quote:
    I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.



    Quote:
    Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.



I guess I am a little like the interviewer, then. I have been told there are racist barriers in the institutions of the USA, so I just take that as a given. But when asked to give evidence I don't have any facts to quote, which is I guess what I was interested in.

I don't agree or disagree (it's a subject I have no first-hand experience in), I was just interested if there was evidence beyond the anecdotal examples the interviewer (and yourself) have given. Basically I wanted to see if anyone had stats to counter Elder's. I mean its one thing to say stats are flawed but what else do you have to go on then? A feeling? Subtle racism that you know is there? your gut?

I don't know, I was just looking for a clear answer to Elder's challenge.

Thanks for your response, tho.



Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.

                      Quote:

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          "Give an example of systemic racism."

                          Quote:

                            Quote:
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

                            Quote:

                              Quote:
                              Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.

                          Quote:

                            Quote:
                            It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.

                            Quote:

                              Quote:
                              I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.

                              Quote:

                                Quote:
                                The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.



    Quote:
    Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race.


It was found to be based on race during investigations. As minority poor regions were exclusively targeted.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.



    Quote:

    I guess I am a little like the interviewer, then. I have been told there are racist barriers in the institutions of the USA, so I just take that as a given. But when asked to give evidence I don't have any facts to quote, which is I guess what I was interested in.


There are but they are not quite as overt. For whatever reason we expect things to be as clear as say Jim Crow laws. They are not. It is harder to prove them now but it does not mean they are not there.


    Quote:
    I don't agree or disagree (it's a subject I have no first-hand experience in), I was just interested if there was evidence beyond the anecdotal examples the interviewer (and yourself) have given. Basically I wanted to see if anyone had stats to counter Elder's. I mean its one thing to say stats are flawed but what else do you have to go on then? A feeling? Subtle racism that you know is there? your gut?


I have no first hand experience but have heard enough anecdotal evidence and enough somewhat valid statistics to make it questionable at the least.

I would need to listen through again to go point by point.

You use the best representational numbers you can get with the understanding that the numbers are flawed. Any responsible analysis or anybody reporting on them has to make that clear. These sorts of things are not reported the same and that leads to problems with comparing apples to oranges.

One just needs to be very careful. Anybody coming off as knowing the absolute truth without acknowledging that material is not being honest.


    Quote:
    I don't know, I was just looking for a clear answer to Elder's challenge.


I must have missed his challenge. He seemed like he was ranting more to me. Almost everything he was saying was highly slanted towards a conservative ideology.

That does not mean it is wrong, but it means that nothing should be taken for sure without review. I do not mean looking at both sides sources. Try to find reasonable sources and check it out.


    Quote:
    Thanks for your response, tho.


Here is a reasonable article by the BBC as an overview. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36826297




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.

          Quote:

            Quote:

              Quote:
              I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.

                        Quote:

                          Quote:

                            Quote:
                            "Give an example of systemic racism."

                            Quote:

                              Quote:
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

                              Quote:

                                Quote:
                                Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.

                          Quote:

                            Quote:
                            I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.

                            Quote:

                              Quote:
                              It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.

                              Quote:

                                Quote:
                                I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.

                                Quote:

                                  Quote:
                                  The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race.



    Quote:
    It was found to be based on race during investigations. As minority poor regions were exclusively targeted.


really? How did they determine that? Do they not do this to poor whites? I think most districts have unofficial quotas. If cops arent giving out tickets it looks like they arent doing their jobs.

But I'll take your word on that (as I'm too lazy to check:-)


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.

      Quote:

        Quote:

        I guess I am a little like the interviewer, then. I have been told there are racist barriers in the institutions of the USA, so I just take that as a given. But when asked to give evidence I don't have any facts to quote, which is I guess what I was interested in.



    Quote:
    There are but they are not quite as overt. For whatever reason we expect things to be as clear as say Jim Crow laws. They are not. It is harder to prove them now but it does not mean they are not there.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I don't agree or disagree (it's a subject I have no first-hand experience in), I was just interested if there was evidence beyond the anecdotal examples the interviewer (and yourself) have given. Basically I wanted to see if anyone had stats to counter Elder's. I mean its one thing to say stats are flawed but what else do you have to go on then? A feeling? Subtle racism that you know is there? your gut?



    Quote:
    I have no first hand experience but have heard enough anecdotal evidence and enough somewhat valid statistics to make it questionable at the least.


I think Elder's point was that it is anecdotal. Which is why it doesnt stand up to scrutiny (or in court).


    Quote:
    I would need to listen through again to go point by point.


You don't have to. It was a fairly simple question. I was looking for someone to give a concrete example.


    Quote:
    You use the best representational numbers you can get with the understanding that the numbers are flawed. Any responsible analysis or anybody reporting on them has to make that clear. These sorts of things are not reported the same and that leads to problems with comparing apples to oranges.



    Quote:
    One just needs to be very careful. Anybody coming off as knowing the absolute truth without acknowledging that material is not being honest.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I don't know, I was just looking for a clear answer to Elder's challenge.



    Quote:
    I must have missed his challenge. He seemed like he was ranting more to me. Almost everything he was saying was highly slanted towards a conservative ideology.


That might have been part of the problem. You were dismissing him as a conservative so his stats don't matter. This seems to be the problem. Left and right aren't bothering to listen to each other because they are painting the other side with broad strokes.


    Quote:
    That does not mean it is wrong, but it means that nothing should be taken for sure without review. I do not mean looking at both sides sources. Try to find reasonable sources and check it out.


Again, I was looking at it from the interviewers perspective. If you put me on the spot, I probably would have had some vague (anecdotal) ideas and he was prepared to counter.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Thanks for your response, tho.





thanks, nice article.

thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.

I do feel there must be more to it that gut feelings and anecdotal evidence. But until it is demonstrated, I'll have to say Mr Elder has stats on his side.



Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.

            Quote:

              Quote:

                Quote:
                I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.

                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.

                  Quote:

                    Quote:
                    For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.

                    Quote:

                      Quote:
                      A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.

                      Quote:

                        Quote:
                        This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.

                          Quote:

                            Quote:

                              Quote:
                              "Give an example of systemic racism."

                              Quote:

                                Quote:
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

                                Quote:

                                  Quote:
                                  Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.

                            Quote:

                              Quote:
                              I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.

                              Quote:

                                Quote:
                                It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.

                                Quote:

                                  Quote:
                                  I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.

                                  Quote:

                                    Quote:
                                    The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It was found to be based on race during investigations. As minority poor regions were exclusively targeted.



    Quote:
    really? How did they determine that? Do they not do this to poor whites? I think most districts have unofficial quotas. If cops arent giving out tickets it looks like they arent doing their jobs.


In the example I gave the community is majority economically poor African American's. There is a more well off portion that is majority white.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/ferguson-police-racial-discrimination.html?mcubz=2

That is a summary article.


    Quote:
    But I'll take your word on that (as I'm too lazy to check:-)


I linked an article so you would not have to. It at least covers the jist of it.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.

        Quote:

          Quote:

          I guess I am a little like the interviewer, then. I have been told there are racist barriers in the institutions of the USA, so I just take that as a given. But when asked to give evidence I don't have any facts to quote, which is I guess what I was interested in.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        There are but they are not quite as overt. For whatever reason we expect things to be as clear as say Jim Crow laws. They are not. It is harder to prove them now but it does not mean they are not there.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I don't agree or disagree (it's a subject I have no first-hand experience in), I was just interested if there was evidence beyond the anecdotal examples the interviewer (and yourself) have given. Basically I wanted to see if anyone had stats to counter Elder's. I mean its one thing to say stats are flawed but what else do you have to go on then? A feeling? Subtle racism that you know is there? your gut?

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I have no first hand experience but have heard enough anecdotal evidence and enough somewhat valid statistics to make it questionable at the least.



    Quote:
    I think Elder's point was that it is anecdotal. Which is why it doesnt stand up to scrutiny (or in court).


The court thing is a bit false. At least if I understand right. Even if a police officer does something wrong, it is hard to have them punished for this offense. Given the nature of the job etc. So, not sure it is a good measure.

It is not really anecdotal. As there are enough statistics available to make it clear that something is wrong. The jump that is harder to make is how do you prove that somebody was acting with racist intent?

Statistics can only give a glimpse into that, not be the end all be all. And this is part of the problem with the concept of racism etc. anyway.

I would argue that many of the counter points can also be anecdotal or cherry picked as well. Ironically, the cases of police shootings are often highly biased. I mean in the coverage and nature of them. There tends to be a bias in reporting on these sorts of things that can make them seem more common than they are. This is true of many things though.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I would need to listen through again to go point by point.



    Quote:
    You don't have to. It was a fairly simple question. I was looking for someone to give a concrete example.


There are, the issue with them is. Somebody could potentially point to something else as an issue and argue them away. These are more subtle things and are not as easy to demonstrate causation.

I could link to articles covering examples and you could easily google and probably find an article that does not see racism anywhere in the US anymore.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      You use the best representational numbers you can get with the understanding that the numbers are flawed. Any responsible analysis or anybody reporting on them has to make that clear. These sorts of things are not reported the same and that leads to problems with comparing apples to oranges.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        One just needs to be very careful. Anybody coming off as knowing the absolute truth without acknowledging that material is not being honest.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I don't know, I was just looking for a clear answer to Elder's challenge.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            I must have missed his challenge. He seemed like he was ranting more to me. Almost everything he was saying was highly slanted towards a conservative ideology.



    Quote:
    That might have been part of the problem. You were dismissing him as a conservative so his stats don't matter. This seems to be the problem. Left and right aren't bothering to listen to each other because they are painting the other side with broad strokes.


That is not what I said if you read what I wrote above in the fullest. At one point I said he is taking the conservative ideological approach. Which does not make his stats better or worse, but it gives a slant to it and a warning of potential cherry picking.

When somebodies ideology is such than one should not accept it on face value. That is my point. The whole left or right thing is bull crap for the most part. If people would lay out a complete story and honestly address all the data, the flaws in it and the flaws and limitations of whatever system in question than there can be honest talk where ideology may inform.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      That does not mean it is wrong, but it means that nothing should be taken for sure without review. I do not mean looking at both sides sources. Try to find reasonable sources and check it out.


I agree, all I am saying is that in this case we are only looking at a conservative point of view on this. From one person, with a sometimes questionable track record. Does that mean that he is in and of itself wrong?

Not at all, it does mean that one should not take it at face value. I have seen Bill O'Reily dress down people and make them look like idiots before. Does not mean he was right about it on the surface or wrong.

People accept too much. And we accept too much in general from individuals that are not necessarily experts in the area. This area is hardly settled in academic circles. Let alone public ones.


    Quote:
    Again, I was looking at it from the interviewers perspective. If you put me on the spot, I probably would have had some vague (anecdotal) ideas and he was prepared to counter.


That is more a failure on the interviewers part than anything. That said, the interviewer may not be prepared to deal with a given individual. I am not saying this guy is right or wrong. This is not an issue that I am an expert on either.

All I am saying is that it is just as incorrect to accept it at face value.





    Quote:
    thanks, nice article.



    Quote:
    thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.


There are stats and graphs in the article. I am not sure what stats you are looking for.


    Quote:
    I do feel there must be more to it that gut feelings and anecdotal evidence. But until it is demonstrated, I'll have to say Mr Elder has stats on his side.


Did you read the article I put up? What sort of stats are you looking for here and to prove what. Maybe I am unclear.

Also unclear as how you can brush off an article with stats as having no statistics.

Also review this and the studies linked to there in.

http://americablog.com/2015/05/institutional-racism-by-the-numbers.html

I am a little concerned that you can be so swayed from one interview and that is it though.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 767


Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.

All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118


Ok Im getting a spam warning and you seemed to be replying to yourself at points there, a sure sign that the post is getting too convoluted.

You are concerned?
I'm a bit concerned with you that you consider me pursuaded one way or the other. I just asked for a good solid argument to refute Elder's objection.

You know, bd, you can go from fairly pleasant to interact with to very condescending very quickly. You might consider working on this aspect of your interaction because it puts people off. At least it puts me off.

take care.


Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:
    Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.



    Quote:
    All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.


Again, not saying he is wrong. I think there are two sides to the issue. Particularly with public discorce.

There really is something to debate in terms of accountability, under what conditions and so on and so forth.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.


Nice sum up. One of the reasons I posted that video was because it didnt come off as a rant to me. I was just looking for a better answer than the interviewer gave.


    Quote:
    Again, not saying he is wrong. I think there are two sides to the issue. Particularly with public discorce.


that last word in your sentence sent me scrambling for a dictionary/translator.


    Quote:
    There really is something to debate in terms of accountability, under what conditions and so on and so forth.





Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:
    Ok Im getting a spam warning and you seemed to be replying to yourself at points there, a sure sign that the post is getting too convoluted.


I got that on the post about traveling above and cannot reply to it. Strange stuff.

I saw one example of that, me replying to myself. Very strange.


    Quote:
    You are concerned?
    I'm a bit concerned with you that you consider me pursuaded one way or the other. I just asked for a good solid argument to refute Elder's objection.


But you were also willing to dismiss flaws, from a statistical point of view of the quality of the information. And then go on to claim that the article I posted had no relevant statistics and you were leaning towards the other fellow because of statistics.

Despite the fact that statistics in and of itself, as you were trying to point out at times, would not in and of themselves support racism. Do you see the issue with that?


    Quote:
    You know, bd, you can go from fairly pleasant to interact with to very condescending very quickly. You might consider working on this aspect of your interaction because it puts people off. At least it puts me off.


Did you or did you not read the article I provided and say the following

"thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.

I do feel there must be more to it that gut feelings and anecdotal evidence. But until it is demonstrated, I'll have to say Mr Elder has stats on his side"

Despite the fact that the first article does provide statistics on varying topics related and lays out the issues with the statistics from the head of the FBI. The agency that monitors such things.

So the system is flawed and we do not know enough to get accurate representations, but the guy somehow has stats on his side when nobody can?

That is logically inconsistent. You can look at it as condescending, but all I can do is put information out there from the sources with the most knowledge in the area.

So, I do not know of an incredibly polite way to say that your statement was mistaken.

It is frustrating to put material out there and then dismissed for the wrong reasons.




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.



    Quote:
    Nice sum up. One of the reasons I posted that video was because it didnt come off as a rant to me. I was just looking for a better answer than the interviewer gave.


I think this is a reply to MM


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Again, not saying he is wrong. I think there are two sides to the issue. Particularly with public discorce.



    Quote:
    that last word in your sentence sent me scrambling for a dictionary/translator.


It is a major spelling error. Discourse is what I was going for.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      There really is something to debate in terms of accountability, under what conditions and so on and so forth.





Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118


I wasnt dismissing the article. I took away that in the later half the fbi was pointing out that they can't actually get reliable data on police killings. which is why it makes it hard to counter mr Elder's point.

Which was my whole damn point of trying to get a point to counter him. You just linked to an article and said "there it is. it's all in there."

Ok which point did you want me to take away? That police killings are going down? That whites are shot more than blacks? That it is almost impossible to compile data on police killings?

Did you actually watch the video? I'm still wondering what you saw as a rant?

So what point would you give to counter Mr. Elders? I won't even ask you to back it up. What is your answer to "Give me an example of systemic racism?"

If you still want to.


Its pretty clear we are having a breakdown in communication.


Edit: Looking back, I realise we were talking about different articles. I was referring to the BBC article you posted and I see that you were referring to the by the numbers article. I'll read that one now but it does illustrate my point about your style putting me off. I only speak for myself and maybe your tone works for you in other circles.

Anyway, its kind of funny now that I look at it. I had no fricking idea how you thought an article about the difficulty of gathering reliable data would persuade me.


Ha, ha.


    Quote:
    Did you or did you not read the article I provided and say the following



    Quote:
    "thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.


yes, but it was in reply to the OTHER article. this is hilarious. I see now why we were getting so frustrated with each other.

I was referring to this info from the BBC article:


Official data on the number of people killed by the police turns out to be remarkably unreliable.
"We can't have an informed discussion, because we don't have data," FBI Director James Comey said in the House of Representatives in October.
"People have data about who went to a movie last weekend, or how many books were sold, or how many cases of the flu walked into an emergency room. And I cannot tell you how many people were shot by police in the United States last month, last year, or anything about the demographics. And that's a very bad place to be."



Which is why I was referring to a lack of stats.



Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Nice sum up. One of the reasons I posted that video was because it didnt come off as a rant to me. I was just looking for a better answer than the interviewer gave.



    Quote:
    I think this is a reply to MM


Looks like it was.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Again, not saying he is wrong. I think there are two sides to the issue. Particularly with public discorce.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        that last word in your sentence sent me scrambling for a dictionary/translator.



    Quote:
    It is a major spelling error. Discourse is what I was going for.


Yeah, I figured that out.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        There really is something to debate in terms of accountability, under what conditions and so on and so forth.



Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118



    Quote:
    Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.



    Quote:
    All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.



that was why I posted it. Good points, I was looking for counterpoints.

How anyone could dismiss that as a typical republican rant, I don't know.


Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:
    I wasnt dismissing the article. I took away that in the later half the fbi was pointing out that they can't actually get reliable data on police killings. which is why it makes it hard to counter mr Elder's point.


I really want you to explain this point to me. He is quoting from unreliable data. Therefore he is right?

Just because he is throwing out various unrelated stats does not mean he is proving that much. Many of the things he is quoting are not entirely related to what the point at hand is. As it assumes there is no racism and throws numbers out.


    Quote:
    Which was my whole damn point of trying to get a point to counter him. You just linked to an article and said "there it is. it's all in there."


I have no idea what your point was at this point. As you seem to want to depend on statistics but have no problem basing thoughts on incomplete data. In a field where that is a problem.


    Quote:
    Ok which point did you want me to take away? That police killings are going down? That whites are shot more than blacks? That it is almost impossible to compile data on police killings?


The later was the point.

Whites are shot more by who? Police? They are a higher number in the population. If you only care about absolute numbers than one misses the point. AA are about 2.5 times more likely to be shot by a police officer.


    Quote:
    Did you actually watch the video? I'm still wondering what you saw as a rant?


Yes, most of his rant of numbers. He is throwing out unrelated numbers. He mentions a city that is about 45% black and entirely under AA control in terms of various things. Therefore, his assumption is there is no racism there.

That is not true at all. Also, the number of blacks killed by blacks, white killed by whites is irrelevant to the point of police shootings.

His arguments are also highly politically charged. As he is blaming one side for the issue at hand.



    Quote:
    So what point would you give to counter Mr. Elders? I won't even ask you to back it up. What is your answer to "Give me an example of systemic racism?"


I did above with an article to the NYT. And I gave you an example of it. You apparently dismissed it and ignored it. I am not sure what more I can do for you.


    Quote:
    If you still want to.


Not really.


    Quote:

    Its pretty clear we are having a breakdown in communication.



    Quote:

    Edit: Looking back, I realise we were talking about different articles. I was referring to the BBC article you posted and I see that you were referring to the by the numbers article. I'll read that one now but it does illustrate my point about your style putting me off. I only speak for myself and maybe your tone works for you in other circles.


We were not, I was referring to the BBC article. I added the next two articles as further support to the point you asked about. How did they know it was racism. You apparently did not read it or did not agree with it. You ask me above for another example.



    Quote:
    Anyway, its kind of funny now that I look at it. I had no fricking idea how you thought an article about the difficulty of gathering reliable data would persuade me.


You are impressed by statistics based on highly questionable data. Meaning the hard numbers are at best questionable. Given the self reporting nature of things with police shootings and all.

But you apparently only put value on convenient stats. Or at least that is my take away.


    Quote:

    Ha, ha.


Yup, I am being the jerk here.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Did you or did you not read the article I provided and say the following

      Quote:

        Quote:
        "thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.



    Quote:
    yes, but it was in reply to the OTHER article. this is hilarious. I see now why we were getting so frustrated with each other.



    Quote:
    I was referring to this info from the BBC article:



    Quote:

    Official data on the number of people killed by the police turns out to be remarkably unreliable.
    "We can't have an informed discussion, because we don't have data," FBI Director James Comey said in the House of Representatives in October.
    "People have data about who went to a movie last weekend, or how many books were sold, or how many cases of the flu walked into an emergency room. And I cannot tell you how many people were shot by police in the United States last month, last year, or anything about the demographics. And that's a very bad place to be."



    Quote:
    Which is why I was referring to a lack of stats.







Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 10
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118


Holy cow:-) Did you read your own article?:-)

there is a lot in there but,

Here's how it ends.

"However, Fryer doesn't find any racial difference in the cases where police offers actually shoot someone."



So you are cross with me that I didnt find that article a persuasive argument to use against Elder? I don't think that conclusion would help.


The BBC article mostly focuses on the perception that police are being killed more.


Listen, I think you are still angry at me. Im not angry at you because there was a misunderstanding. We both took a few low blows at each other so I really dont have any hard feelings. (You called yourself a jerk. I didnt.) My comments about your style do stand and feel free to give me any advice on my conversational shortcomings.


My "ha,ha" was actually sincere at the situation.

take care.




Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310


Did you read it?

This is how it ends.

"The debate over this continues, both on the streets and in academia."

Towards the end a study is reported. Several studies or reports are discussed in the article. You picked the one at the end and claimed it was representative of the article.



    Quote:
    Holy cow:-) Did you read your own article?:-)



    Quote:
    there is a lot in there but,



    Quote:
    Here's how it ends.



    Quote:
    "However, Fryer doesn't find any racial difference in the cases where police offers actually shoot someone."



    Quote:
    So you are cross with me that I didnt find that article a persuasive argument to use against Elder? I don't think that conclusion would help.


I an annoyed that from one unsourced interview you believe this fellow is the end all be all source. When his conclusions from numbers given are jumps at times.


    Quote:

    The BBC article mostly focuses on the perception that police are being killed more.


If by the first part, sure. I am not sure I would say most.


    Quote:

    Listen, I think you are still angry at me. Im not angry at you because there was a misunderstanding. We both took a few low blows at each other so I really dont have any hard feelings. (You called yourself a jerk. I didnt.) My comments about your style do stand and feel free to give me any advice on my conversational shortcomings.


Yes, mocking people is the true sign of an open argument. Whatever you want to think man.


    Quote:

    My "ha,ha" was actually sincere at the situation.



    Quote:
    take care.







Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 10
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118



    Quote:
    Did you read it?



    Quote:
    This is how it ends.



    Quote:
    "The debate over this continues, both on the streets and in academia."



    Quote:
    Towards the end a study is reported. Several studies or reports are discussed in the article. You picked the one at the end and claimed it was representative of the article.


No, I included earlier paragraphs as well that you didnt respond to. The article ends on an inconclusive note. If you want to pick out data in there to use against Elder, great. But constantly repeating "read it. its all there" isnt persuasive.


    Quote:


      Quote:
      Holy cow:-) Did you read your own article?:-)

      Quote:

        Quote:
        there is a lot in there but,

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Here's how it ends.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            "However, Fryer doesn't find any racial difference in the cases where police offers actually shoot someone."

            Quote:

              Quote:
              So you are cross with me that I didnt find that article a persuasive argument to use against Elder? I don't think that conclusion would help.



    Quote:
    I an annoyed that from one unsourced interview you believe this fellow is the end all be all source. When his conclusions from numbers given are jumps at times.


I DON"T believe this fellow. I was looking for COUNTER arguments. I mean, seriously. How many times need I repeat it.


    Quote:

      Quote:

      The BBC article mostly focuses on the perception that police are being killed more.



    Quote:
    If by the first part, sure. I am not sure I would say most.


Ok the first half then. I'm just trying to point out why THAT article would not be a great counter to Elder.


    Quote:

      Quote:

      Listen, I think you are still angry at me. Im not angry at you because there was a misunderstanding. We both took a few low blows at each other so I really dont have any hard feelings. (You called yourself a jerk. I didnt.) My comments about your style do stand and feel free to give me any advice on my conversational shortcomings.



    Quote:
    Yes, mocking people is the true sign of an open argument. Whatever you want to think man.


Ok, its clear there is nothing I can say at this point. You are offended.


How about this: Im sorry we were talking at cross purposes.

If you don't think you are gonna persuade anyone, why come on this forum at all? To hear yourself type? To feel superior to those who are "so easily persuaded" like me?

I would really like you to look in the mirror on this one. I have probably botched any chance of that with my own piss-poor style. Reconsider the condescending tone. Not with me. With other people you engage with. Please don't just dismiss this because you are cross. I am sincerely trying to make amends.

Take care. and I mean it.



    Quote:

      Quote:

      My "ha,ha" was actually sincere at the situation.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        take care.



Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310


I find repeated childish insults to be unproductive. So you will forgive my indifference towards the critique

For the record, I feel superior to nobody. I only want people to slightly understand as much context on a given issue as possible. That is it. I do not think people change their minds much outside of very specific situations. That may be jaded by too many debates with science deniers. However, I mostly find it to be true on anything.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 10
Paladin


Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,118


So then avoid that tone in the future and the response won't be childish.

that and try to be more specific than "just read the article" when the article doesn't really support your ideas, or at least contains lots of data noting the opposite.

Hope this helps you for the future.:-)


Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,310



    Quote:
    So then avoid that tone in the future and the response won't be childish.



    Quote:
    that and try to be more specific than "just read the article" when the article doesn't really support your ideas, or at least contains lots of data noting the opposite.



    Quote:
    Hope this helps you for the future.:-)


You really have no idea do you?

You display a fair bit of willful lack of critical examination here on the discussion at had. You in turn change the topic to some babble about how it is my fault that I am a condescending guy. Whatever, that does not make much of a difference to me. I am frustrated about your throw away of various things in the thread.

You stated this to my example. Which is fair, but sort of underscores one problem I bring up. It is hard to say it is racist or not, as one could mask something potentially with another. Which is hard to figure out.

"Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race."

Fair enough. I mention a short blurb about the investigation into the area to which you respond

"really? How did they determine that? Do they not do this to poor whites? I think most districts have unofficial quotas. If cops arent giving out tickets it looks like they arent doing their jobs.

But I'll take your word on that (as I'm too lazy to check:-)"

Ok, again fair enough. Then after a bit you reach the following

"So what point would you give to counter Mr. Elders? I won't even ask you to back it up. What is your answer to "Give me an example of systemic racism?"

If you still want to."

Meaning you did not really consider anything I had said or glanced at the article. You do not have to, but I find this insulting if you ask, I provide something and then it is ignored. That bothers me alot.


You also make clear that anecdotal evidence is not acceptable and want some statistical evidence. Then go on to say that stats do not matter. During this, I point out the flaws in the nature of the data. This does not mean that everything is out the window but to be skeptical. I think I said as much.

You reply that he has statistics on his side. I point out somewhere in there as well that the numbers he is putting out there do not really prove in at least a few incidences what he thinks it is. For instance pointing. That he is making leaps of logic between two factoids that do not necessarily line up that way from the articles stated.

You keep asking for stats that support things, but accept at face value what the other guy is saying. My comments were mostly about being skeptical of individuals with ideological dogs in the fight. As cherry picking will happen. That is not controversial. You can tell that from the video. As he is calling out BLM, Obama and uniquely Democrats. This again does not make him wrong, but one should be skeptical.

Most based on your statement

"thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart."

Meaning, everything I was saying and try to get across in terms of being cautious of bias was dismissed based on your initial assertions of the following

"I do feel there must be more to it that gut feelings and anecdotal evidence. But until it is demonstrated, I'll have to say Mr Elder has stats on his side. "

Which means, given that this was your conclusion throughout the thread until it broke down, that you were dismissing anything I linked to that reported numbers and tried to make some context of things.

You then say that the articles I link to do not provide statistics. Two of them did. The conclusion of one was that it is basically unclear at this point. The other had more statistics. However, if one is honest than it is hard to delve into things like intention.

From the counter point of view, we know from what is reported some things. Is there enough to say that police act in a racist manner? No idea, this is not my field. But I am trying to give you context at least. You pegged me into a corner regardless of what I provided you with. Basically saying it is not good enough.

The final article I linked to was specifically about institutional racism and had some numbers with it. It is not a literature review or anything, but at least gives a look. Again, dismissed because the whole thing went down the rabbit hole of police violence against minorities.


In sum total the only thing I said that to me is border line insulting would be the easily persuaded argument. However, given that you are willing to dismiss even my casual warnings out of hand about just believing numbers from somebody with a clear ideological dog in the fight, you dismissed it. Meaning, you were accepting the video pretty much by default.


Remember, this whole thing pretty much started with a discussion of institution racism. Which can include things like disproportionate arrest rates. Which is mentioned briefly in the BBC article I think. Why is that the case? Is institutional racism possible? Sure. Is it possible that African American's commit more crimes. Possibly. Is it possible that stereotyping is used by police departments at times? Seems at least plausible and likely. Is the later a form of racism or what have you? Yeah.

Numbers and statistics could be provided for each with rational. Does that make it ok?

I do not remember if it was this thread or not but I also note that police shootings are over sensationalized in addition to not all reported the same way. Meaning there are multiple kinds of bias in the numbers and analysis of them. Again, a reason to be skeptical of ideology. The level of reporting is likely disproportional to the acts.

However, we see videos of some instances where things are a bit disturbing. I do understand why people would be very upset. Statistics would not showcase that. Is perceived injustice or injustice limited by statistics? It seems like this is a numbers game. How much then is acceptable? Which way should the system error? How should individuals be held accountable if they are guilty?


Yes, I get frustrated when you ask for information and then keep falling back to a point that is flawed to begin with because somebody with an ideological dog in the fight is throwing out rapid fire numbers. This is a rhetorical tactic that is often used to make things harder in the first place. Or at least can be. I do not know if that is what he is going for but I have seen that used before in situations like this. One side shows up with loads of numbers against a non-technical expert and just beats them with it. It happens with climate change "skeptics" on news programs. Visually they come out looking good but that does not change that they just cherry picked and misrepresented many things.

I am honestly not sure if that is as clear here. But from my limited review, there is not a clear answer as of yet. So anybody claiming that there is, is somebody that should be questioned. Particularly one claiming that there is no basis for this stuff based on numbers. Which as I stated above are hard to relate to every situation. Nor would they excuse a given example in and of itself.

Does it seem to be as systemic a problem as some lead on. No, not from the articles I have seen, but that does not dismiss the instances where somebody dies for a minor offense. When there are reports of individuals not getting gunned down for similar or worse actions. Just in different economic or racial situations. From a law point of view, that one is still problematic.


I would have to delve deeper into what literature I can to see what way the field leans. As I am not convinced that many sources are non-ideological in the matter.


You annoyed me because of your attitude in this case. It very much comes off that you are asking to be shown counter points. Dismiss the points given as not sufficient and then ignore criticisms of your apparent over-reliance on statistics on an issue that is difficult to put numbers to in a meaningful way (cause and effect) from an ideological source and so on. Then change the subject to focusing on me.


For what it is worth, I think that enough studies do reach the conclusion about police shootings where at the least it is not clear or probably not racially motivated on a large scale. Meaning an exaggeration by political groups in areas. It still does not change much of what I laid out.

And going back to the start. Your original point was systemic racism. Of which I tried to give you some articles on. As they summarize it better than I would.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
Sumidor


Member Since: Sat Feb 25, 2017
Posts: 115



    Quote:
    I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.



    Quote:
    I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.



    Quote:
    "Give an example of systemic racism."



    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM



    Quote:
    Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.


Since Dave Rubin and Larry Elder are both Americans, I'll address the topic in relation to the U.S..

I believe there is no systemic racism in America. There are certainly individuals who are racist, but that's very different from systemic racism.

Most arguments I see which argue that systemic racism does exist point towards various statistics of police shootings, graduation rates, unemployment rates, and rates for loan approvals. Those can vary across America, as it is a very large country. In some cases if we only looked at the numbers of whites compared to blacks, and looked no further, the accusation of racism can be understood. However, in nearly all cases where whites have more favorable numbers, Asians have even more favorable numbers than whites.

So if someone believes those percentages are evidence of racism of whites against blacks, then they must also believe that there is systemic racism against whites in favor of Asians. That seems incredibly unlikely, and not only is there no factual evidence of such, there's no anecdotal evidence either. I've never heard stories of Asians keeping whites from getting home mortgages, or an epidemic of Asian cops shooting whites.

Additionally, there are cases of those statistics existing in states or cities with predominantly black local legislators, black mayors, black state legislators, black governors, and black representatives at the federal level. I fail to see how systemic racism would be allowed to continue in that situation.








Posted with Google Chrome 58.0.3029.110 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 767



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Sometimes people can make a good compelling argument. He might not have been correct in everything he said, but he did state facts logically and to the point. And he held the interviewing to the question he asked. He wanted 1 specific example other than the standard cop answer...and none were given. Not asking for one here since he cant reply.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        All in all...there are still plenty of issues I think...but he made some very good points imo.



    Quote:

    that was why I posted it. Good points, I was looking for counterpoints.



    Quote:
    How anyone could dismiss that as a typical republican rant, I don't know.


I know...they are a typical democrat and always think PARTY FIRST! ;\)

There are plenty of Republicans that do this to Democrats as well, and that's part of the problem here...both sides are getting more and more extreme and that's bad for sanity imo. The truth is often (not always admittedly) somewhere in the middle between two opposing sides.

I give the interviewer some credit though...he seemed to be truly thinking about the things his guest was saying. He didn't immediately jump ship, but he seemed to consider seriously what was said and think about it.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2017 Powermad Software