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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 1,585


The GOP made a Faustian bargain with Trump. They will look the other way with regard to his abhorrent behavior and daily antics -- as long as he signs their bills, and enacts their agenda -- which is ultimately the agenda of the so-called 'Swamp' (aka Establishment Corporate Interests). This was foretold in 2012:

“We are not auditioning for fearless leader. We don’t need a president to tell us in what direction to go. We know what direction to go. ... We just need a president to sign this stuff.” - Grover Norquist

After a solid year of eating Trump's nonsense, the devil demanded his due on taxes. And thus, like the Tea Party before it, another populist movement has been swallowed whole and successfully absorbed. In trying to drain the swamp, the swamp has turned Trump into the ultimate Swamp Monster -- ushering in the biggest upward redistribution of wealth in American history.

This is why populism can be a dangerous thing. The devil is not in the details, but in who is the largest beneficiary of the populism. Or to put it more succinctly -- follow the money.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,772



    Quote:
    The GOP made a Faustian bargain with Trump. They will look the other way with regard to his abhorrent behavior and daily antics -- as long as he signs their bills, and enacts their agenda -- which is ultimately the agenda of the so-called 'Swamp' (aka Establishment Corporate Interests). This was foretold in 2012:


I suppose, but I would say that it is the Tea Party too. They like to make a big stink that the two things are separate but they are not. They are just driven by different motivations to get to the same ends. I would not previously have cast Trump as a conservative but that is what he taps into.

And despite being sort of the brand of conservative that a crazy uncle at Thanksgiving might be. He is still among them. And wants the same general things in the end. The most important thing to him though is that he get credit.


    Quote:
    “We are not auditioning for fearless leader. We don’t need a president to tell us in what direction to go. We know what direction to go. ... We just need a president to sign this stuff.” - Grover Norquist


I suppose, but I thing Norquist is also given more power than he deserves. Most Republicans were of the same general mind before he ever came into the picture.


    Quote:
    After a solid year of eating Trump's nonsense, the devil demanded his due on taxes. And thus, like the Tea Party before it, another populist movement has been swallowed whole and successfully absorbed. In trying to drain the swamp, the swamp has turned Trump into the ultimate Swamp Monster -- ushering in the biggest upward redistribution of wealth in American history.


Trump was always the ultimate swamp monster. He was a corrupt business man, he has a corrupt administration and so on. The conflicts of interest alone are staggering. He has put the fox in the hen house in pretty much every opportunity.


    Quote:
    This is why populism can be a dangerous thing. The devil is not in the details, but in who is the largest beneficiary of the populism. Or to put it more succinctly -- follow the money.


It is very dangerous. It can do great or horrible things. History has shown that before. More often than not bad things. It is just harnessing people being mad at something.

Nothing Trump ran on made sense really. And most of his promises were outright lies. Both at the time and going forward. Nothing will change his mind and he does not care about the truth of any given situation. He is the worst of the worst in nearly every respect.

We are not talking about a conservative president that is taking the thoughtful approach at applying conservative principles. Something that many of us would disagree with anyway, but a toddler throwing tantrums and doing what he wants because there is nobody to really stop him.






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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 1,585



    Quote:
    I suppose, but I would say that it is the Tea Party too. They like to make a big stink that the two things are separate but they are not. They are just driven by different motivations to get to the same ends. I would not previously have cast Trump as a conservative but that is what he taps into.


Agreed. Trump is an opportunist posing as a conservative. I think he wants what he wants, and it goes very little further in thought than that. The bulk of his ideology was borrowed from Bannon and Sessions -- the latter of whom was deemed too racist in the 1980s to serve on the courts.


    Quote:
    And despite being sort of the brand of conservative that a crazy uncle at Thanksgiving might be. He is still among them. And wants the same general things in the end. The most important thing to him though is that he get credit.


I think Trump appeals to those seeking to exploit (the Paul Ryan type), and those who are easy prey for exploiters (the crazy uncle type). There is little doubt that the GOP see Trump as a means to an end, regardless of where he ends up.


    Quote:
    I suppose, but I thing Norquist is also given more power than he deserves. Most Republicans were of the same general mind before he ever came into the picture.


A little man, like Norquist, can cast a large shadow. Look at Arthur Laffer.


    Quote:
    It is very dangerous. It can do great or horrible things. History has shown that before. More often than not bad things. It is just harnessing people being mad at something.


True. Even Bernie Sanders, who might be considered a benevolent populist, misled Americans with regard to TPP. Now the future might very well belong to China. Although many nations are still trying to re-work TPP. But even so, America ceded leadership on the issue.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,772



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I suppose, but I would say that it is the Tea Party too. They like to make a big stink that the two things are separate but they are not. They are just driven by different motivations to get to the same ends. I would not previously have cast Trump as a conservative but that is what he taps into.



    Quote:
    Agreed. Trump is an opportunist posing as a conservative. I think he wants what he wants, and it goes very little further in thought than that. The bulk of his ideology was borrowed from Bannon and Sessions -- the latter of whom was deemed too racist in the 1980s to serve on the courts.


Which is ironic in sad that we are becoming more tolerant of that sort of thing.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      And despite being sort of the brand of conservative that a crazy uncle at Thanksgiving might be. He is still among them. And wants the same general things in the end. The most important thing to him though is that he get credit.



    Quote:
    I think Trump appeals to those seeking to exploit (the Paul Ryan type), and those who are easy prey for exploiters (the crazy uncle type). There is little doubt that the GOP see Trump as a means to an end, regardless of where he ends up.


I think that is fair.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I suppose, but I thing Norquist is also given more power than he deserves. Most Republicans were of the same general mind before he ever came into the picture.



    Quote:
    A little man, like Norquist, can cast a large shadow. Look at Arthur Laffer.


No question, I guess my point is that those impulses were already there anyway. There are just people that sort of solidify them or give them full on voice.

The idea of cutting taxes being an absolute good as orthodoxy existed before Laffer. He just gave it more of a voice. He was not even entirely wrong, at least not on a hypothetical level. However, how he reads it now and others is horribly wrong and makes no sense.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      It is very dangerous. It can do great or horrible things. History has shown that before. More often than not bad things. It is just harnessing people being mad at something.



    Quote:
    True. Even Bernie Sanders, who might be considered a benevolent populist, misled Americans with regard to TPP. Now the future might very well belong to China. Although many nations are still trying to re-work TPP. But even so, America ceded leadership on the issue.


True, Trump in general is very much helping the rise of China. Sanders had similar sort of rhetoric in degrees, but he is not the one doing the things now.

And I would like to believe he would have at least kept the US involved and having a voice at the table. Maybe I am naive though but Trump is less of a thinker than Sanders. Or at least that is my perception. Not as reflective as say Obama but I do not think he is unhinged and I am always right sort.






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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 1,585



    Quote:

      Quote:
      The bulk of his ideology was borrowed from Bannon and Sessions -- the latter of whom was deemed too racist in the 1980s to serve on the courts.



    Quote:
    Which is ironic in sad that we are becoming more tolerant of that sort of thing.


It could be that some people are becoming more tolerant, or it could be the last gasp of a dying movement. A flame flickers wildly before it fades. I'd like to believe that Trumpism is one last push-back after the massive gains liberals have made with regard to social progress.

At the same time, the RNC just moved towards supporting Roy Moore, after Trump gave his official endorsement. No surprise on Trump's endorsement. Roy Moore is more Trump than Trump himself. But watching a political party -- the so-called Moral Majority -- rapidly surrendering moral values for political expediency is really frightening.

There will be a price to pay. The bill always comes due.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 10
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,772



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        The bulk of his ideology was borrowed from Bannon and Sessions -- the latter of whom was deemed too racist in the 1980s to serve on the courts.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Which is ironic in sad that we are becoming more tolerant of that sort of thing.



    Quote:
    It could be that some people are becoming more tolerant, or it could be the last gasp of a dying movement. A flame flickers wildly before it fades. I'd like to believe that Trumpism is one last push-back after the massive gains liberals have made with regard to social progress.



    Quote:
    At the same time, the RNC just moved towards supporting Roy Moore, after Trump gave his official endorsement. No surprise on Trump's endorsement. Roy Moore is more Trump than Trump himself. But watching a political party -- the so-called Moral Majority -- rapidly surrendering moral values for political expediency is really frightening.



    Quote:
    There will be a price to pay. The bill always comes due.


Although I like to believe this, the only time anybody pays any sort of price is if the people that vote for them think they should.

Morality, in some circles, is not the same or applied equally. In the case of Alabama. His actions are still better than voting for a Democrat. That is horrifying. A grown man going out with underage girls is better than somebody whose political opinions are different than yours.

That is very scary. And is tribalism at its worst. I like to imagine that it is going away but I cannot convince myself of that.




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Posted with Mozilla Firefox 57.0 on Windows 7
Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 1,585



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          The bulk of his ideology was borrowed from Bannon and Sessions -- the latter of whom was deemed too racist in the 1980s to serve on the courts.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Which is ironic in sad that we are becoming more tolerant of that sort of thing.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It could be that some people are becoming more tolerant, or it could be the last gasp of a dying movement. A flame flickers wildly before it fades. I'd like to believe that Trumpism is one last push-back after the massive gains liberals have made with regard to social progress.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          At the same time, the RNC just moved towards supporting Roy Moore, after Trump gave his official endorsement. No surprise on Trump's endorsement. Roy Moore is more Trump than Trump himself. But watching a political party -- the so-called Moral Majority -- rapidly surrendering moral values for political expediency is really frightening.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            There will be a price to pay. The bill always comes due.



    Quote:
    Although I like to believe this, the only time anybody pays any sort of price is if the people that vote for them think they should.



    Quote:
    Morality, in some circles, is not the same or applied equally. In the case of Alabama. His actions are still better than voting for a Democrat. That is horrifying. A grown man going out with underage girls is better than somebody whose political opinions are different than yours.



    Quote:
    That is very scary. And is tribalism at its worst. I like to imagine that it is going away but I cannot convince myself of that.


Watching Trump and his supporters trying to thread the needle between endorsing Moore and not endorsing his child abuse allegations makes me embarrassed to be a human being.

And while Roy Moore was being kicked out of office for violating constitutional law, his opponent successfully prosecuted KKK members for terrorist bombings. And yet he's being labeled as 'weak on crime'.

Welcome to Alabama.


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 1,585


Sorry, folks. Those programs that were benefiting the poor and middle class? They're now on the chopping block. The GOP spent your money on tax cuts for the uber-rich and now needs to tighten the government belt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/01/gop-eyes-post-tax-cut-changes-to-welfare-medicare-and-social-security/



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,803



    Quote:
    Sorry, folks. Those programs that were benefiting the poor and middle class? They're now on the chopping block. The GOP spent your money on tax cuts for the uber-rich and now needs to tighten the government belt.



    Quote:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/01/gop-eyes-post-tax-cut-changes-to-welfare-medicare-and-social-security/


The GOP always complain about Democrats being into income redistribution. Yes, the Dems want to make the poor less poor sometimes at the expense of the rich, but that is far more admirable than making the poor even poorer while making the rich even richer. I say this as someone whose income is in the top 10 percentile in the U.S. Republican policies personally benefit me more but make society as a whole far worse.



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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,772


The irony, or sadness, is this is how the GOP governs in the end anyway. Cut taxes, debt explodes, blame spending and demand cuts to decrease the deficit.

It is a pretty simple metric. They dislike the government doing anything. Poor people or those with less are that way because they made poor choices. That is a very strong view.

And they will likely get away with it too.

I imagine that most do not even see the irony of the things that they are doing. I guess the era of finding solutions is over. Let politics rule all. Party and ideology above country and the needs of most of that country.




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