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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,371



Interesting issue. We get to see Eternities from universes 2-3 and 5-6 (4 is missing). Galactus isn't reverted back to his normal self so I guess someone else will have to do that. The Ultimate universe Ultimates show up and are as lame as I remember...Ultimate Cap still hates France. The Celestials are resurrected by that cosmic lady from Silver Surfer whose name I forget (and seemed completely out of place in the story). The Maker gets in a good dis on American Chavez.





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Gareth Dugdale


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Don Campbell


Member Since: Fri Aug 18, 2017
Posts: 7



    Quote:

    Interesting issue. We get to see Eternities from universes 2-3 and 5-6 (4 is missing). Galactus isn't reverted back to his normal self so I guess someone else will have to do that. The Ultimate universe Ultimates show up and are as lame as I remember...Ultimate Cap still hates France. The Celestials are resurrected by that cosmic lady from Silver Surfer whose name I forget (and seemed completely out of place in the story). The Maker gets in a good dis on American Chavez.

Maybe I'm missing something but shouldn't there have been a total of eight versions of Eternity referenced? Ultimates 2 #6 established that the war fought between the Aspirants and the "rebels" caused hundreds of new universes to split off from the pure essence of the First Firmament and that those new universes coalesced into a new, collective being, a Second Cosmos who was also the first Multiverse. Eternity's recent death and resurrection caused his change from being the seventh multiverse to the eighth multiverse. Later issues reaffirmed the idea that Galactus is the last survivor of the sixth multiverse and that the current Eternity is the eighth iteration of the multiverse. Meanwhile, the First Firmament is repeatedly described as being the first iteration of All Reality. So, there should be a total of NINE embodiments of reality: the First Firmament plus personifications of the eight multiverses, right? And yet, in this issue, "The Second" is described as being the "first of the new breed" and he and "The Third" even look like the first two multiverses depicted in issue #6. Did somebody miscount?

As for the Queen of Nevers, the current Silver Surfer series made it very clear that she was IMPORTANT (even if she'd never been seen before) and had a strong connection to Eternity. Plus, the fact that she was shown saving the last of the Celestials from Logos was something that was clearly meant to be significant and I'm very pleased that it turned out to lead to the rebirth of the Celestials.

Speaking of the Celestials, there are three things that I don't fully understand about their place in Ewing's cosmology. First, in issue #6, the First Firmament described how it created the first Celestial Beings which it named the Aspirants. The First Firmament then went on to say that "there were others" whom it described as "multicolored rebels" who wanted the universe to know growth and change and mortality. Later, on the recap page of Ultimates 2 #9, the Queen of Nevers stated that "it is said" that the First Firmament created the Celestials. So, is this a sign that Ewing is backing away from the idea that both the Aspirants and the Celestials were created by the First Firmament?

Second, if the Celestials were part of the original Universe and colonized the Second Cosmos/First Multiverse, how did they get into the Seventh Multiverse? Did they die with each of the first six multiverses only to be reborn in their successors? Or did they somehow bypass the death/resurrection cycle, perhaps stepping Outside of All Reality until the replacement multiverses were ready to be recolonized?

Third, the First Firmament stated that the "rebels" had evolved servitors they called "Omegas" in opposition to the "Alpha" that was the First Firmament. Who exactly were these Omegas? Were they the mortal creatures whose evolution the Celestials guided via their experiments? Or were they the Celestials themselves, the ones we've read about for years? The image in panel 1 of page 6 doesn't make it entirely clear. The only Omegas I've ever heard of before were the last survivors of a reality destroyed by the Death Celestials, as shown in the 2011 Defenders series. This Omega Council had secretly tampered with Reality-616, using Concordance Engines to strengthen it in the hopes that it would be able to resist the Death Celestials.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:
    Maybe I'm missing something but shouldn't there have been a total of eight versions of Eternity referenced? Ultimates 2 #6 established that the war fought between the Aspirants and the "rebels" caused hundreds of new universes to split off from the pure essence of the First Firmament and that those new universes coalesced into a new, collective being, a Second Cosmos who was also the first Multiverse. Eternity's recent death and resurrection caused his change from being the seventh multiverse to the eighth multiverse. Later issues reaffirmed the idea that Galactus is the last survivor of the sixth multiverse and that the current Eternity is the eighth iteration of the multiverse. Meanwhile, the First Firmament is repeatedly described as being the first iteration of All Reality. So, there should be a total of NINE embodiments of reality: the First Firmament plus personifications of the eight multiverses, right?


No, there have only been seven multiverses total. Stop thinking of them as universes or multiverses but iterations of existence. The First Firmament was the first iteration. The current Eternity is the eighth.


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    As for the Queen of Nevers, the current Silver Surfer series made it very clear that she was IMPORTANT (even if she'd never been seen before) and had a strong connection to Eternity. Plus, the fact that she was shown saving the last of the Celestials from Logos was something that was clearly meant to be significant and I'm very pleased that it turned out to lead to the rebirth of the Celestials.


Yes. Calling them the Fifth Host is technically inaccurate though. The Fourth Host on Earth was simply the fourth visitation by Celestials. They didn't have to be different Celestials each time.


    Quote:
    Speaking of the Celestials, there are three things that I don't fully understand about their place in Ewing's cosmology. First, in issue #6, the First Firmament described how it created the first Celestial Beings which it named the Aspirants. The First Firmament then went on to say that "there were others" whom it described as "multicolored rebels" who wanted the universe to know growth and change and mortality. Later, on the recap page of Ultimates 2 #9, the Queen of Nevers stated that "it is said" that the First Firmament created the Celestials. So, is this a sign that Ewing is backing away from the idea that both the Aspirants and the Celestials were created by the First Firmament?


No. The First Firmament created both.


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    Second, if the Celestials were part of the original Universe and colonized the Second Cosmos/First Multiverse, how did they get into the Seventh Multiverse? Did they die with each of the first six multiverses only to be reborn in their successors? Or did they somehow bypass the death/resurrection cycle, perhaps stepping Outside of All Reality until the replacement multiverses were ready to be recolonized?


It seems to me that the Celestials don't automatically die with each iteration. They were responsible for the first multiverse after the dispersion of the First Firmament and they tend to each iteration.





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Don Campbell


Member Since: Fri Aug 18, 2017
Posts: 7



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Maybe I'm missing something but shouldn't there have been a total of eight versions of Eternity referenced? Ultimates 2 #6 established that the war fought between the Aspirants and the "rebels" caused hundreds of new universes to split off from the pure essence of the First Firmament and that those new universes coalesced into a new, collective being, a Second Cosmos who was also the first Multiverse. Eternity's recent death and resurrection caused his change from being the seventh multiverse to the eighth multiverse. Later issues reaffirmed the idea that Galactus is the last survivor of the sixth multiverse and that the current Eternity is the eighth iteration of the multiverse. Meanwhile, the First Firmament is repeatedly described as being the first iteration of All Reality. So, there should be a total of NINE embodiments of reality: the First Firmament plus personifications of the eight multiverses, right?



    Quote:
    No, there have only been seven multiverses total. Stop thinking of them as universes or multiverses but iterations of existence. The First Firmament was the first iteration. The current Eternity is the eighth.

I see your point of view but the fact is that Eternity is specifically identified as being the seventh and eighth multiverses instead of the seventh and eighth iterations of reality. To me, that really reinforces the idea that there have been a total of eight multiverses, not one universe and seven multiverses. Of course, if you ("zvelf") are actually Al Ewing posting on this forum, then I'm totally wrong (and you chose your words poorly).


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      As for the Queen of Nevers, the current Silver Surfer series made it very clear that she was IMPORTANT (even if she'd never been seen before) and had a strong connection to Eternity. Plus, the fact that she was shown saving the last of the Celestials from Logos was something that was clearly meant to be significant and I'm very pleased that it turned out to lead to the rebirth of the Celestials.



    Quote:
    Yes. Calling them the Fifth Host is technically inaccurate though. The Fourth Host on Earth was simply the fourth visitation by Celestials. They didn't have to be different Celestials each time.

There was also an X-Factor storyline in which a Celestial Fifth Host was judging a planet of mutants. As you said, they were known as that because it was the fifth time that any group of Celestials had visited that planet.


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      Speaking of the Celestials, there are three things that I don't fully understand about their place in Ewing's cosmology. First, in issue #6, the First Firmament described how it created the first Celestial Beings which it named the Aspirants. The First Firmament then went on to say that "there were others" whom it described as "multicolored rebels" who wanted the universe to know growth and change and mortality. Later, on the recap page of Ultimates 2 #9, the Queen of Nevers stated that "it is said" that the First Firmament created the Celestials. So, is this a sign that Ewing is backing away from the idea that both the Aspirants and the Celestials were created by the First Firmament?



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    No. The First Firmament created both.

I agree that that is what was strongly implied in issue #6 but the Queen of Nevers' "it is said" qualification makes it less absolutely true than I would like. Maybe it's another poor choice of words by the writer?


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      Second, if the Celestials were part of the original Universe and colonized the Second Cosmos/First Multiverse, how did they get into the Seventh Multiverse? Did they die with each of the first six multiverses only to be reborn in their successors? Or did they somehow bypass the death/resurrection cycle, perhaps stepping Outside of All Reality until the replacement multiverses were ready to be recolonized?



    Quote:
    It seems to me that the Celestials don't automatically die with each iteration. They were responsible for the first multiverse after the dispersion of the First Firmament and they tend to each iteration.

That's possible but it would have been nice if the story had made it clear that the Celestials were somehow exempt from dying with each of the multiverses.

By the way, where exactly do the Infinity Gems (NOT the Infinity Stones) fit into these multiverses? Or the Bloodgem/Hellfire Helix/Exo-Mind? Or the gems that made up the Lifestone Tree? All of these items were said to have originated from a point in time before the then-current universe existed, so which multiverse(s) did they come from?


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,371




    Quote:

    Maybe I'm missing something but shouldn't there have been a total of eight versions of Eternity referenced? Ultimates 2 #6 established that the war fought between the Aspirants and the "rebels" caused hundreds of new universes to split off from the pure essence of the First Firmament and that those new universes coalesced into a new, collective being, a Second Cosmos who was also the first Multiverse. Eternity's recent death and resurrection caused his change from being the seventh multiverse to the eighth multiverse. Later issues reaffirmed the idea that Galactus is the last survivor of the sixth multiverse and that the current Eternity is the eighth iteration of the multiverse. Meanwhile, the First Firmament is repeatedly described as being the first iteration of All Reality. So, there should be a total of NINE embodiments of reality: the First Firmament plus personifications of the eight multiverses, right? And yet, in this issue, "The Second" is described as being the "first of the new breed" and he and "The Third" even look like the first two multiverses depicted in issue #6. Did somebody miscount?


Shouldn't there be 7. First Firmament, 2-6 and Eternity as both 7 and 8? We got a new universe but we didn't really get a new Eternity right?

The second is a new breed because that iteration of the universe became a multiverse. FF was just a single universe but he still counts as the first of the 8 iterations of the universe.





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,371




    Quote:

    I see your point of view but the fact is that Eternity is specifically identified as being the seventh and eighth multiverses instead of the seventh and eighth iterations of reality. To me, that really reinforces the idea that there have been a total of eight multiverses, not one universe and seven multiverses. Of course, if you ("zvelf") are actually Al Ewing posting on this forum, then I'm totally wrong (and you chose your words poorly).


It's 1 universe and 7 multiverses with a total of 8 iterations. Living Tribunal says in issue 2 that he's the living tribunal of the 8th cosmos (iteration). There wasn't a 9th iteration.




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Rutro


Member Since: Fri Jan 16, 2009
Posts: 37



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,903



    Quote:

      Quote:
      It seems to me that the Celestials don't automatically die with each iteration. They were responsible for the first multiverse after the dispersion of the First Firmament and they tend to each iteration.



    Quote:
    That's possible but it would have been nice if the story had made it clear that the Celestials were somehow exempt from dying with each of the multiverses.

Well, some of the Celestials depicted back at the time of the First Firmament were named Celestials like Nezarr the Calculator and Tefral the Surveyor. I suppose some Celestials could look exactly like another, but the implication is that they are the same ones who existed during the seventh iteration or else why draw them the same?

Ewing is as continuity aware as any Marvel writer I've ever read. He'll veer away from continuity if his story calls for it, but he's probably aware of any retcons he's undertaking. So his story of the Celestials' part in shattering the First Firmament and creating the multiverse stems from an obscure issue of X-treme X-Men:




Given the above scans and that some Celestials survived the destruction of the multiverse by the Beyonders, it makes sense that Celestials can survive between iterations of the multiverse.





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,692



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Don Campbell


Member Since: Fri Aug 18, 2017
Posts: 7



    Quote:

      Quote:

      I see your point of view but the fact is that Eternity is specifically identified as being the seventh and eighth multiverses instead of the seventh and eighth iterations of reality. To me, that really reinforces the idea that there have been a total of eight multiverses, not one universe and seven multiverses.


    It's 1 universe and 7 multiverses with a total of 8 iterations. Living Tribunal says in issue 2 that he's the living tribunal of the 8th cosmos (iteration). There wasn't a 9th iteration.


The problem stems from the fact that writer Al Ewing has sometimes used the terms "cosmos" and "infinity" and "multiverse" and "omniverse" as if they were interchangeable words that all meant "iteration of reality." However, that is NOT the case. For one thing, THE Omniverse is made up of ALL realities, including all of the various Multiverses and any other individual universes that exist. So, all references to Eternity being an Omniverse or to Galactus being from the Sixth Omniverse are totally and absolutely WRONG!!!

Next is the term "cosmos" which Ewing has often used it as a synonym for "multiverse." In New Avengers Vol. 4 #2, the wizard Mor-I-Dun identifies himself as being "of the Fifth Cosmos" and the current post-Secret Wars reality as being "the eighth." This idea is supported in Ultimates 2 #2 when the Living Tribunal identifies himself as being "of the Eighth Cosmos." And then there's the fact that Eternity's death and resurrection represented his change from being the seventh multiverse into being the eighth multiverse. Taking all these statements together, one could see the current Eternity as being both the eighth multiverse and the eighth cosmos. However, all of these statements were made before the existence of the original universe was revealed.

Once the First Firmament is added to the equation, things get messy in two different ways. First, in Ultimates 2 #6, the First Firmament makes it clear that a cosmos and a multiverse are NOT the same when it identified the first of the multiverses as being the "Second Cosmos." So, from this point on, "cosmos" could be a synonym for "iteration of reality" but not for "multiverse."

Second, at the end of Ultimates 2 #5, the First Firmament makes a very clear distinction between himself (one cosmos/one universe/one reality/one totality) and Eternity's "foul kind" (the Multiverses, of which there are eight). So, since the First Firmament definitely does NOT count himself as a multiverse, why should you?

At this point, your concept of "1 universe and 7 multiverses (for) a total of 8 iterations" no longer works. A universe and a multiverse are both iterations of reality and they might both be called a "cosmos" (plural cosmoses) but they are NOT the same thing. It would be like saying "One sparrow and seven swans make a total of eight birds because every bird is also a swan." That's just not correct.

So, since Eternity is the eighth MULTIVERSE and a multiverse is NOT the same as either a cosmos or a universe, that means there have actually been nine iterations of reality/cosmoses, and any entity who identified realities of Mor-I-Dun, and Galan and the current one as, respectively, the Fifth, Sixth and Eight Cosmoses must have been wrong (or simply unaware that the First Firmament's original universe ever existed).

The only way the situation in issue #100 works is if everybody who referred to the current reality as the Eighth Cosmos knew of the existence of the original universe and if the First Firmament was wrong when he claimed that Eternity was the seventh and eighth multiverses. I don't see any indications of either of these conditions being true.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,371




The cosmic beings may not know every detail but they knew they were in universe 8. So they knew there was at one point a universe 1. They may not have known it still existed outside of the current multiverse in a void plotting revenge but they knew there were 7 previous universes. They've said it constantly. Often characters say universe or cosmos rather than Multiverse.

And the splash page with the Eternities is all the proof I need to know I'm right. That told us there were 7 iterations of Eetrnity including the First Firmament and the current Eternity representing iteration seven and eight.



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Don Campbell


Member Since: Fri Aug 18, 2017
Posts: 7



    Quote:
    The cosmic beings may not know every detail but they knew they were in universe 8. So they knew there was at one point a universe 1. They may not have known it still existed outside of the current multiverse in a void plotting revenge but they knew there were 7 previous universes. They've said it constantly. Often characters say universe or cosmos rather than Multiverse.



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    And the splash page with the Eternities is all the proof I need to know I'm right. That told us there were 7 iterations of Eetrnity including the First Firmament and the current Eternity representing iteration seven and eight.

You are really invested in the idea that Al Ewing didn't make poor choices with some of the words he wrote.

Okay, one last time. I'll start by stating one ABSOLUTE FACT: A multiverse is made up of multiple universes so, while a cosmos can be either a universe or a multiverse, A MULTIVERSE IS NOT THE SAME AS A UNIVERSE AND NEVER CAN BE.

With this absolute fact in mind, the statements made by the various cosmic beings can be interpreted in one of two ways:

Explanation #1: There was one universe and seven multiverses which together made eight cosmoses. This is what you have been saying. All you have to do to make this true is admit that the First Firmament and the ghost of the Shaper of Worlds were both wrong when they claimed that the Eternity who died and his reborn self were both the seventh and eighth MULTIVERSES because (see the Absolute Fact).

Explanation #2: There was one universe and eight multiverses which together made up nine cosmoses/iterations of reality. The two only beings (just Mor-I-Dun and the reborn Living Tribunal) who knew the current reality as the "Eighth Cosmos" seemed to be unaware of the original universe which predated the existence of any of the multiverses. The fact that the caged Eternity didn't seem to know who his jailer was could be taken as supporting this theory. Or not.

You can choose which explanation you like better but I pick the second one. I'm not going to argue about it anymore.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,371




    Quote:

      Quote:
      The cosmic beings may not know every detail but they knew they were in universe 8. So they knew there was at one point a universe 1. They may not have known it still existed outside of the current multiverse in a void plotting revenge but they knew there were 7 previous universes. They've said it constantly. Often characters say universe or cosmos rather than Multiverse.

      Quote:

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        And the splash page with the Eternities is all the proof I need to know I'm right. That told us there were 7 iterations of Eetrnity including the First Firmament and the current Eternity representing iteration seven and eight.

      You are really invested in the idea that Al Ewing didn't make poor choices with some of the words he wrote.



    Quote:
    Okay, one last time. I'll start by stating one ABSOLUTE FACT: A multiverse is made up of multiple universes so, while a cosmos can be either a universe or a multiverse, A MULTIVERSE IS NOT THE SAME AS A UNIVERSE AND NEVER CAN BE.


And I'll state it again...that splash page SHOWED US THE NUMBER OF ETERNITIES.


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    With this absolute fact in mind, the statements made by the various cosmic beings can be interpreted in one of two ways:



    Quote:
    Explanation #1: There was one universe and seven multiverses which together made eight cosmoses. This is what you have been saying. All you have to do to make this true is admit that the First Firmament and the ghost of the Shaper of Worlds were both wrong when they claimed that the Eternity who died and his reborn self were both the seventh and eighth MULTIVERSES because (see the Absolute Fact).



    Quote:
    Explanation #2: There was one universe and eight multiverses which together made up nine cosmoses/iterations of reality. The two only beings (just Mor-I-Dun and the reborn Living Tribunal) who knew the current reality as the "Eighth Cosmos" seemed to be unaware of the original universe which predated the existence of any of the multiverses. The fact that the caged Eternity didn't seem to know who his jailer was could be taken as supporting this theory. Or not.



    Quote:
    You can choose which explanation you like better but I pick the second one. I'm not going to argue about it anymore.






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Don Campbell


Member Since: Fri Aug 18, 2017
Posts: 7



    Quote:
    And the splash page with the Eternities is all the proof I need to know I'm right. That told us there were 7 iterations of Eternity including the First Firmament and the current Eternity representing iteration seven and eight.


    Quote:
    And I'll state it again...that splash page SHOWED US THE NUMBER OF ETERNITIES.

The splash page (by which I think you mean pages 26-27) shows the Multiverses Assembled. To be more precise, it showed us the First Firmament (who is NOT a multiverse) being confronted by six Multiverses and mentioned one multiverse who was missing. One universe and seven multiverses makes a total of eight cosmoses. The Second is the Second Cosmos who was the first of the multiverses, The Fourth is the multiverse who is missing from the assembly, The Fifth is the Dark Cosmos of deep magic where the evil wizard Mor-I-Dun originated, The Sixth is where Galan of Taa was born, The Seventh is Infinity (Eternity's sister-self who is now a separate entity from her brother-self since his death) and The Eighth is the reborn Eternity himself.


    Quote:
    Explanation #1: There was one universe and seven multiverses which together made eight cosmoses. This is what you have been saying. All you have to do to make this true is admit that the First Firmament and the ghost of the Shaper of Worlds were both wrong when they claimed that the Eternity who died and his reborn self were both the seventh and eighth MULTIVERSES because a universe can never be a multiverse.


So, this explanation is pretty much what you've been saying, right?


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,371




    Quote:

    The splash page (by which I think you mean pages 26-27) shows the Multiverses Assembled. To be more precise, it showed us the First Firmament (who is NOT a multiverse) being confronted by six Multiverses and mentioned one multiverse who was missing. One universe and seven multiverses makes a total of eight cosmoses. The Second is the Second Cosmos who was the first of the multiverses, The Fourth is the multiverse who is missing from the assembly, The Fifth is the Dark Cosmos of deep magic where the evil wizard Mor-I-Dun originated, The Sixth is where Galan of Taa was born, The Seventh is Infinity (Eternity's sister-self who is now a separate entity from her brother-self since his death) and The Eighth is the reborn Eternity himself.



    Quote:
    Explanation #1: There was one universe and seven multiverses which together made eight cosmoses. This is what you have been saying. All you have to do to make this true is admit that the First Firmament and the ghost of the Shaper of Worlds were both wrong when they claimed that the Eternity who died and his reborn self were both the seventh and eighth MULTIVERSES because a universe can never be a multiverse.


Yes that IS my contention. When it came time to show the Eternities we were told the First Firmament was one of them, there was a second through sixth (well Fourth was missing but was mentioned) and Eternity represents seventh and eight (and Infinity = Eternity so she doesn't matter).

For you to be right there has to be an Eternity that is omitted somewhere between Second and Sixth so that there would be 1 universe and 8 Multiverses for a total of 9 iterations. But that's not the case.

The whole story taken as a whole shows us there is one universe (the first Firmament) and seven multiverses (second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth...with seventh and eighth having the same eternity).

For me to be right it only requires you to accept the belief that Ewing (or an editor) used the word multiverse too freely and lumped the First Firmament's universe in with the Multiverse count. And my assertion all along is that this entire series has told us there were 8 iterations of the universe/multiverse starting with the 2nd issue with the Living Tribunal's comment about the 8th Cosmos.

So either we accept Ewing (or an editor) messed up on the splash page where Eternity/Infity are seven or Ewing (or an editor) messed up by calling a Universe a Multiverse. That's what we're arguing about...we can't agree which one of these 2 is the mistake and which one isn't. But a mistake has been made somewhere.


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    So, this explanation is pretty much what you've been saying, right?


Yes





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