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Author
Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,684



This post contains SPOILERS for the latest episode of the Flash.

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1. Well, I called it. I knew that the Trial of Barry Allen would "not" revolve around him killing the Reverse Flash. I also knew the showrunners would butcher the storyline "because" they didn't use the Reverse Flash. They had to create their own version of this story and thus, ruin it.

2. Well, I won one and I lost one. I predicted that DeVoe wanted Barry's body, but in this episode it is revealed that wasn't DeVoe's plan. Nuts...

Anyways, no review here. Just wanted to give some brief thoughts. What did you think of the episode?





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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JS


Member Since: Thu Oct 29, 2009
Posts: 193


First Barry just lets Reverse-Flash go free. Now Caitlin just lets Amunet go free. Again.

Isn't capturing and imprisoning dangerous metahumans supposed to be these peoples' mission statement or something? Isn't that a thing they're supposed to be doing? But these two clearly evil and very dangerous metas just get a free pass for no real reason, and it comes back to bite them in the ass.

Don't want to kill them? Fine! They've got the Pipeline. They know there's a Speed Force prison. They have options.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,750




    Quote:

    This post contains SPOILERS for the latest episode of the Flash.



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    *SPOILERS*



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    *SPOILERS*



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    *SPOILERS*



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    *SPOILERS*



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    *SPOILERS*



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    Quote:
    1. Well, I called it. I knew that the Trial of Barry Allen would "not" revolve around him killing the Reverse Flash. I also knew the showrunners would butcher the storyline "because" they didn't use the Reverse Flash. They had to create their own version of this story and thus, ruin it.


That was a crappy storyline. In fact I'm just going to say it...it was so crappy and went on for so long they killed Barry off because of it. That storyline derailed Barry's comic and it never recovered. DC can spin whatever nonsense for why they really killed Barry off during the Crisis but the real reason is that storyline sunk Barry's book and made the book unbearable.

And the idea that the courts would try someone for killing a time traveler from the future was just absurd.






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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 37,604




    Quote:
    That was a crappy storyline. In fact I'm just going to say it...it was so crappy and went on for so long they killed Barry off because of it. That storyline derailed Barry's comic and it never recovered. DC can spin whatever nonsense for why they really killed Barry off during the Crisis but the real reason is that storyline sunk Barry's book and made the book unbearable.

It was awful I agree, but I would doubt It was the 'Trial' storyline that sealed Barry Allen's fate, the book hadn't been a good seller since the Silver-and-early-Bronze-Age, and the perrenial low sales and general reader apathy for the title was already well established by the time of Carmine Infantino's second coming... here was a book that had had the same writer in place for almost 15 years, and with a character as challenging to write for as The Flash the energy and inspiration could never be kept for even remotely that long.



    Quote:
    Cary Bates Speaks:
    Q: If not for the advent of Crisis on Infinite Earths, what direction would you have taken the Flash title after the Trial story? Would the resolution have been much different than what was published, and if so, did you have stories completed that were discarded?

    CB: Because DC had given me over a year’s advance notice of the Crisis and Flash’s inevitable demise, I was focusing all my energies on the Trial storyline, since it would now carry through until the very end of the book’s run. So in all honesty I never contemplated what Flash’s life might have been like after the verdict. But the far more interesting question is what might have been had there been no Crisis event? Well, for one thing the Trial would’ve probably ended a good 8 or 9 issues earlier. Flash would’ve been vindicated and found not guilty in the court of public opinion—but perhaps not by the court system. In fact, before the Crisis entered into things, I do remember toying with the idea of Flash being found guilty and going “on the run” (literally). This would’ve kicked off a new story arc which would have had Flash continuing to do his good deeds as a wanted man with an arrest warrant hanging over his head (sort of a variation on the Green Hornet concept of a hero who the authorities view as a criminal). What I liked most about this idea was the delicious irony of a Flash who ends up joining his own Rogues Gallery.








Available to Read, for Free! Fantasy Express #5. Go Back to 1983 - and meet Alan Moore in full, Read all about Countdown, And then there's Johnny Future...

Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #36 - In Search of a Legacy.

A Peculiar Effect on the BBC - The Story of Bernard Wilkie.

Arrow Jan 16th - Divided.

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Dragon Red


Member Since: Fri Jul 05, 2013
Posts: 883


Comics aside, the episode was good but bad at the same time, and Devoe is still a supercilious prick, who bores me to tears using nebulous dialogue to try and prove his spurious preeminence. I freaking HATE Devoe. But, lets be fair, if Devoe is bad, his wife is the real evil genius there. Flipping heck! She allowed him to get struck on purpose with the particle accelerator. Then she has gone along on this crusade and built all his stuff. She is an absolutely repugnant excuse for a human being. So that was one thing the episode did great, made me hate Mrs Dr Professor Devoe more than I already do.

Iris is "Team leader" why and how did she suddenly get in charge? I thought it was "Team Flash." Surely Barry is the leader? And only she can make the tough calls? Stop me if I am wrong, but, aside from telling Team Iris to do things they were already doing or going to do, what actual purpose does Iris serve beyond being a simple love interest for Barry? She used to be a journalist, what happened with that? Iris bugs me. Its not Candice's fault I think she does as good a job as any could with what the writers give her to do.

Ralph is seemingly invulnerable, and could have EASILY caught Miss fake British accent aka Amunet with ease. All he'd have to do is wrap her up nice and tight, just like he did that dinosaur skeleton a few episodes prior. Yet they cut and run!? I thought Ralph was all about catching the bad guy? Doesn't make sense. And they've just allowed a deadly metahuman to escape when, Cisco and Ralph could have probably taken her.

I have to say while I found the episode intense, I seemed to enjoy and hate it at the same time.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,684



Invisibility. Can't believe no else is mentioning it. Did no one else catch that part?





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,684




    Quote:
    Comics aside, the episode was good but bad at the same time, and Devoe is still a supercilious prick, who bores me to tears using nebulous dialogue to try and prove his spurious preeminence. I freaking HATE Devoe. But, lets be fair, if Devoe is bad, his wife is the real evil genius there. Flipping heck! She allowed him to get struck on purpose with the particle accelerator. Then she has gone along on this crusade and built all his stuff. She is an absolutely repugnant excuse for a human being. So that was one thing the episode did great, made me hate Mrs Dr Professor Devoe more than I already do.


Love or hate her, at least the actress is beautiful. And if she's had this affect on you, it means she's a good actor because it's their job to get you to hate their character. \^_\^


    Quote:
    Iris is "Team leader" why and how did she suddenly get in charge? I thought it was "Team Flash." Surely Barry is the leader? And only she can make the tough calls? Stop me if I am wrong, but, aside from telling Team Iris to do things they were already doing or going to do, what actual purpose does Iris serve beyond being a simple love interest for Barry? She used to be a journalist, what happened with that? Iris bugs me. Its not Candice's fault I think she does as good a job as any could with what the writers give her to do.


After Barry got trapped in the Speed Force, Team Flash needed leadership so Iris stepped in. That never officially stopped. Aside from the reporter thing, Iris needs something to do other than being Barry's love interest.

Speaking of Iris and that whole reporter thing. The reason why it's hardly ever seen anymore is because this show has too many supporting characters. Joe, Harry, Cisco, Caitlin and Fake Wally aren't needed. If these characters were removed, a lot more time could be dedicated towards Barry's CSI career, Iris's reporting and things like that. In the old 90's Flash, he had hardly any supporting characters and we got to see Barry at his work place a LOT more often, which I loved.

With so many supporting characters, there isn't a whole lot of time to see them at their jobs except with Team Flash. Every has to have a story arc and time focused on it. That eats up a lot in one episode and leaves no time for seeing Barry as a CSI or Iris as a reporter. To make matters worse, the showrunners aren't particularly good at the CSI stuff or the reporter stuff, which is why we hardly ever see it. They think the more supporting characters we have, the better the show is when it's actually hurting the show more than helping it.

Arrow, Legends and Supergirl all suffer from the same problem to various degrees. Arrow is the worst of them, though, since Oliver has so many sidekicks he works with now.


    Quote:
    Ralph is seemingly invulnerable, and could have EASILY caught Miss fake British accent aka Amunet with ease. All he'd have to do is wrap her up nice and tight, just like he did that dinosaur skeleton a few episodes prior. Yet they cut and run!? I thought Ralph was all about catching the bad guy? Doesn't make sense. And they've just allowed a deadly metahuman to escape when, Cisco and Ralph could have probably taken her.


Very, very good point here. Ralph may be a rookie with the whole powers thing, but even I would have thought of taking her out when I could.


    Quote:
    I have to say while I found the episode intense, I seemed to enjoy and hate it at the same time.


So, 5 out of 10 stars?





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,183


I actually liked it, as Barry found a way out of the cage of the smartest dude on their Earth, and liked how the Thinker arranged to fix Barry for his own murder.

and the Thinker in that new body seems to have some powereful Telepathy to go with big brains now!


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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 2,100


Since there was a restraining order to keep Barry away from Devoe, why would Devoe be in Barry's home?

Are the police dumb enough to think Barry would bring Devoe there before or after killing him?




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,750



No I'm doubling down on my stance on this one. What ruined Flash...Reverse Flash killing Iris. That was when the book entered it's looooong death spiral. The trial sprung from that event.

I would say around the time when Golden Glider first showed up was when the series first started to peak but the book got really bad in those Iris-less years.






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,750




    Quote:
    Since there was a restraining order to keep Barry away from Devoe, why would Devoe be in Barry's home?



    Quote:
    Are the police dumb enough to think Barry would bring Devoe there before or after killing him?


Oh crap with Barry getting accused of being a murderer I wonder if people will start to wonder if Harrison Wells was innocent after all and Barry just threatened him to confess in order to free Henry from jail before Barry killed him.

Considering Barry's history of lying, absences from work, his childhood trauma, being in a coma for months (possible brain injury?), his mentor dying under mysterious cirumstances, his romantic rival/his wife's ex fiancee Eddie dying under mysterious circumstances, his father dying under mysterious circumstances...Thinker probably could convince the public Barry is a serial killer.



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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 37,604




    Quote:

    No I'm doubling down on my stance on this one. What ruined Flash...Reverse Flash killing Iris. That was when the book entered it's looooong death spiral. The trial sprung from that event.



    Quote:
    I would say around the time when Golden Glider first showed up was when the series first started to peak but the book got really bad in those Iris-less years.


I agree with you, on a creative level the direction and content of The Flash did suffer a serious blow with the events of Iris' death and its aftermath, but In the interview I linked to Cary Bates himself states that by the mid 1970s sales on The Flash were terrible, "stagnant" as he puts it, and a determined effort was made to shake the book up by killing off Iris. The point being that even before Iris' death the book had been in sustained decline and wasn't appealing to the mass audience. So from a publishing point of view this was a book and character that had been a problem for many years before the Trial storyline came, and much like Supergirl was seen as a logical character to write out. 'The Flash' would go on, but no longer with Barry Allen....





Available to Read, for Free! Fantasy Express #5. Go Back to 1983 - and meet Alan Moore in full, Read all about Countdown, And then there's Johnny Future...

Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #36 - In Search of a Legacy.

A Peculiar Effect on the BBC - The Story of Bernard Wilkie.

Arrow Jan 16th - Divided.

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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
Posts: 2,100


Worst case scenario, Barry will have to out himself as the Flash to help establish his innocence


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Dragon Red


Member Since: Fri Jul 05, 2013
Posts: 883


I didn't see it. ;\-\)


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Dragon Red


Member Since: Fri Jul 05, 2013
Posts: 883



    Quote:
    What ruined Flash...Reverse Flash killing Iris.


It may have ruined the comic, but it would improve the TV show 10 fold! I really dislike Iris in this show and I feel genuinely sorry for Joe who had to put up with her all them years.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,750




    Quote:

      Quote:
      What ruined Flash...Reverse Flash killing Iris.



    Quote:
    It may have ruined the comic, but it would improve the TV show 10 fold! I really dislike Iris in this show and I feel genuinely sorry for Joe who had to put up with her all them years.


I disliked Iris in season 1 because:

1. I was sick of the Iris/Eddie romance

2. She seemed useless to the plot since she didn't know Barry's secret

3. I was sick of the will they/won't they thing that drug on forever. I'll go watch Cheers re-runs if I want to see that.

4. Iris's job was as a blogger. I am incapable of respecting any human being who defines themselves as a blogger.

But then to the shows credit they resolved every one of my issues with her. Eddie's dead, she knows Barry's secret, they're an item now (married even) and for a while she had a job as a legitimate journalist working for a newspaper. So to me she's fixed and I don't have much to complain about. I was probably going to be annoyed if they killed her off last season

Once Iris learned Barry's identity, started dating Barry and got a real job I liked her a lot more. She started off as one of those stock superhero girlfriends or soap opera love interest archetypes. Once she learned the truth I feel like she finally became a legitimate character and I came around to liking her.

Personally I hate that type of character she started as. The male hero's love interest that is unaware he's a hero and by virtue of his having a secret identity and her being a recurring character on a tv show the hero ends up making countless choices that affect her life that she's oblivious to. I hate stories like that...they used to do them all the time on Smallville. If you're going to have such a recurring impact on your friends, family and love interests lives you need to take them into your confidence IMO if you can trust them.

Reverend Meteor



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Dragon Red


Member Since: Fri Jul 05, 2013
Posts: 883


For me I began to finally like Iris in Season 2. In a way I feel sorry for Candice, she is given poor material to work with IMO, she does the best she can with what she's got.

Though the reasons you say you disliked Iris in season 1 are all good ones, it was a very frustrating season with the two of them. I think she improved in Season 2 and in Season 3 and I liked her in those, but now in Season 4 I can't stand her again. She's become team leader by no other reason than default really, but, she doesn't actually do anything really except tell people to do stuff they already would do anyway, she's gone back to her season 1 self really, where she has no real character except being Mrs Flash / love interest. The whole "we're the flash" is annoying too, no Iris you are not the Flash. Barry is. Imagine if Mon El when he was seeing Kara said "we're supergirl" that'd be ridiculous, so Iris saying that is equally absurd.

To me I think she's going back to the character she started as. And that's a pity.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,750




    Quote:
    For me I began to finally like Iris in Season 2. In a way I feel sorry for Candice, she is given poor material to work with IMO, she does the best she can with what she's got.



    Quote:
    Though the reasons you say you disliked Iris in season 1 are all good ones, it was a very frustrating season with the two of them. I think she improved in Season 2 and in Season 3 and I liked her in those, but now in Season 4 I can't stand her again. She's become team leader by no other reason than default really, but, she doesn't actually do anything really except tell people to do stuff they already would do anyway, she's gone back to her season 1 self really, where she has no real character except being Mrs Flash / love interest. The whole "we're the flash" is annoying too, no Iris you are not the Flash. Barry is. Imagine if Mon El when he was seeing Kara said "we're supergirl" that'd be ridiculous, so Iris saying that is equally absurd.



    Quote:
    To me I think she's going back to the character she started as. And that's a pity.


Yeah I will say some of that has bugged me too. I like her but she shouldn't be team leader (Cisco or Caitlyn should...sorry Barry). Iris needs to have her own job. For years she was distant from the main plot of the episodes every week but by fixing that now they've robbed her of having her own job or her pursuing her own interests. We need to see her back as a journalist.

I always liked in the comics how Iris just sort of seemed to roll with the punches that Barry was the Flash. He was worried about telling her and she told him she already knew because he talked in his sleep.





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