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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,291


The Season 5 finale prompted me to go back and watch the Arrow Pilot to see how well the flashbacks dovetailed into the very first episode. Well a funny thing happened, once I watched the Pilot I got hooked and just kept on going, and just last night I finished the entirety of Season 1. I had not seen any of these episodes since 2013 and I thought I’d comment on season 1.

First and foremost it is my thorough conviction that the show in Season 1 was vastly superior to the show in its present form. I was knocking out 2 and sometimes 3 episodes in a single night. I’ve been pondering just what made it so compelling and here’s what I came up with:

A) The island flashbacks were just as good if not better than what was going on in Star City. In Season 1 I really wanted to know “Just what did go down on that island that forged the rather ‘soft’ Oliver into the Vigilante?” Also Slade Wilson and Shado were interesting characters in and of themselves.

By Season 5 the flashbacks had become an annoyance to me. Oliver seemed pretty much a Bad Ass by the time he got to Russia, so the flashback was just telling me a separate story of the already fully formed man he had become – which just broke up the current story rather than augmenting it.

My conclusion is going forward the PTB should just tell a linear story without the flashbacks. The flashbacks served a purpose, but they’ve run their course.

B) In Season 1 there was a true sense of mystery as to who all the players were and what their motives were. Could Diggle be counted on to keep Ollie’s secret? And later on the same question would be asked of Felicity. Oliver (and the audience) didn’t know just what Moira was up to and where her allegiances lay. Oliver had no idea Malcolm was the Black Archer – indeed at one point he actually works at cross purposes with Moira by saving Malcolm from her hired hitman. Likewise Malcolm didn’t know Oliver was the Vigilante until the second to last episode, and even exclaimed “Oh no!” when he unmasked Oliver. And of course there was Detective Quentin always at odds with the Vigilante.

By Season 5 it seemed that everyone knew who the Green Arrow was and even where his hangout was. All of Oliver’s friends were in on the secret, Detective Lance was a part of the “Arrow Gang”, Nyssa was in on the secret, and even Prometheus appeared to know more about Ollie than his friends did. This in my opinion greatly reduced the suspense in Season 5.

My conclusion is that the genie is out of the bottle on this one and there can be no going back to when Oliver had to lead a double life and constantly run the risk of being found out.

Not all shows Jump the Shark, and Arrow is still worth watching but for me it has degraded from the place it started out at. Heading into Season 6 I have hopes that the show can be revived to its former greatness, but I have to admit I will be surprised if it can be.





KATS latest read: The Shadow-The Kings of Crime by Maxwell Grant
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,911




    Quote:
    The Season 5 finale prompted me to go back and watch the Arrow Pilot to see how well the flashbacks dovetailed into the very first episode. Well a funny thing happened, once I watched the Pilot I got hooked and just kept on going, and just last night I finished the entirety of Season 1. I had not seen any of these episodes since 2013 and I thought I’d comment on season 1.



    Quote:
    First and foremost it is my thorough conviction that the show in Season 1 was vastly superior to the show in its present form. I was knocking out 2 and sometimes 3 episodes in a single night. I’ve been pondering just what made it so compelling and here’s what I came up with:



    Quote:
    A) The island flashbacks were just as good if not better than what was going on in Star City. In Season 1 I really wanted to know “Just what did go down on that island that forged the rather ‘soft’ Oliver into the Vigilante?” Also Slade Wilson and Shado were interesting characters in and of themselves.

    By Season 5 the flashbacks had become an annoyance to me. Oliver seemed pretty much a Bad Ass by the time he got to Russia, so the flashback was just telling me a separate story of the already fully formed man he had become – which just broke up the current story rather than augmenting it.



    Quote:
    My conclusion is going forward the PTB should just tell a linear story without the flashbacks. The flashbacks served a purpose, but they’ve run their course.



    Quote:
    B) In Season 1 there was a true sense of mystery as to who all the players were and what their motives were. Could Diggle be counted on to keep Ollie’s secret? And later on the same question would be asked of Felicity. Oliver (and the audience) didn’t know just what Moira was up to and where her allegiances lay. Oliver had no idea Malcolm was the Black Archer – indeed at one point he actually works at cross purposes with Moira by saving Malcolm from her hired hitman. Likewise Malcolm didn’t know Oliver was the Vigilante until the second to last episode, and even exclaimed “Oh no!” when he unmasked Oliver. And of course there was Detective Quentin always at odds with the Vigilante.



    Quote:
    By Season 5 it seemed that everyone knew who the Green Arrow was and even where his hangout was. All of Oliver’s friends were in on the secret, Detective Lance was a part of the “Arrow Gang”, Nyssa was in on the secret, and even Prometheus appeared to know more about Ollie than his friends did. This in my opinion greatly reduced the suspense in Season 5.



    Quote:
    My conclusion is that the genie is out of the bottle on this one and there can be no going back to when Oliver had to lead a double life and constantly run the risk of being found out.



    Quote:
    Not all shows Jump the Shark, and Arrow is still worth watching but for me it has degraded from the place it started out at. Heading into Season 6 I have hopes that the show can be revived to its former greatness, but I have to admit I will be surprised if it can be.


To me the show was at it's best in season 2.



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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,449




    Quote:
    A) The island flashbacks were just as good if not better than what was going on in Star City. In Season 1 I really wanted to know “Just what did go down on that island that forged the rather ‘soft’ Oliver into the Vigilante?” Also Slade Wilson and Shado were interesting characters in and of themselves.


That's because in season 1, the showrunners had a plan for the flashbacks and a reason for their existence. Season 2 continued that trend but the flashbacks lost their focus from season 3 onward.

I agree season 1 had so much mystery and it was a lot of fun to watch. Season 2 upped the ante and put Oliver in a world of superhumans. And that right there is the primary reason why I believe Nolan's Batman COULD have worked in the Snyderverse. I NEVER believed in the hogwash that people keep claiming that he wouldn't work in a world of super powered people due to how ultra realistic Nolan's Batman was. All you have to do is dump Mr. Ultra realistic in a world of superhumans and he'd work just fine. The first season had a very ultra realistic tone and I could almost believe a man with no powers could do everything (or most everything) that Oliver did in the first season. And then season 2 came along and Oliver had to adapt just as Nolan's Batman would have to adapt. So, yeah, not only COULD it have worked, we have solid proof in the Arrow season 1 going to season 2 that it WOULD work.

But in the end, Christian Bale should consider himself lucky. If I had played Batman in the Nolan films and after watching the mess Snyder created, I'd be glad someone else is wearing the cowl.

For me, everyone close to Oliver knowing who he was didn't break the suspense for me. After I've watched countless shows where a secret identity is kept and watching that played out season after season, it was refreshing to see that didn't happen on the Arrow. When it was time to reveal Oliver's identity to someone who "should" know, I was fine with it. I'm glad the showrunners didn't dance around the secret identity thing an overly long period of time to those who are closest to Oliver.


    Quote:
    My conclusion is that the genie is out of the bottle on this one and there can be no going back to when Oliver had to lead a double life and constantly run the risk of being found out.


Unless the entire population of Star City knows Oliver is Green Arrow, I say the risk is still there.


    Quote:
    Not all shows Jump the Shark, and Arrow is still worth watching but for me it has degraded from the place it started out at. Heading into Season 6 I have hopes that the show can be revived to its former greatness, but I have to admit I will be surprised if it can be.


For me, the show degraded very, very rapidly going into season 3. Olicity ruined the show for me as a relationship coming out of left field and was shoved down our throats as something legit and believable when it was not. And then when the showrunners had the perfect opportunity to fix that huge mistake, what did they do? Instead of killing off Felicity like they SHOULD have done, they killed off one of the best characters in the show...Laurel. To add even further insult, they are bringing back the actress in season 6 but not the same character.

Outside of the Dominator Invasion Crossover, I haven't seen a single episode of Arrow since Arrow season 4 after it was revealed Felicity was not the one in the grave. I have zero faith Arrow can pick up the pieces and improve.

And then there's the fact he has TOO MANY SIDEKICKS! When searching for news on the Flash and Black Lightning, I come across news on the Arrow. So, I've learned Arrow has (aside from Diggle, Felicity & Thea), Fake Mr. Terrific, Wild Dog and Dinah Drake (Fake Canary). Worse, the last two I named have been promoted to season 6 regulars. With so many sidekicks, I've just gotta wonder how much of Green Arrow we'll actually see now that the spotlight has to be shared with SO MANY CHARACTERS. Sheesh, might as well call this show TEAM ARROW instead of just Arrow. It's basically all it's turned into at this point. A team show and not a show about the man who it's SUPPOSED to be about: Oliver Queen. \(no\) \(no\)





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,291




    Quote:
    And then there's the fact he has TOO MANY SIDEKICKS! When searching for news on the Flash and Black Lightning, I come across news on the Arrow. So, I've learned Arrow has (aside from Diggle, Felicity & Thea), Fake Mr. Terrific, Wild Dog and Dinah Drake (Fake Canary). Worse, the last two I named have been promoted to season 6 regulars. With so many sidekicks, I've just gotta wonder how much of Green Arrow we'll actually see now that the spotlight has to be shared with SO MANY CHARACTERS. Sheesh, might as well call this show TEAM ARROW instead of just Arrow. It's basically all it's turned into at this point. A team show and not a show about the man who it's SUPPOSED to be about: Oliver Queen. \(no\) \(no\)


I almost hesitate to tell you this but Ragman was also a major player on Team Arrow in Season 5 as well. \:\)







KATS latest read: The Shadow-The Kings of Crime by Maxwell Grant
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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,060


You had a great idea! I'm watching Season 1 now too.

Watching Season 5 almost felt like a chore. Watching season 1 again even though I've already seen it is really exciting.

There is the good mix between "family" and action.

Oliver is forced to lie to his family for "the greater good."

And forced to play a bumbling Oliver for the public.

Detective Lance is constantly dogging him.

The flashbacks are compelling. Oliver really is a completely different person and you have no clue how the Oliver of the past can become the Oliver of the present.

Oliver sets up his secret base and starts fighting crime himself. He is examining evidence and solving investigative problems. A big different from when Felicity does everything but punch people.

Oliver is also steps ahead of EVERYONE. Like when he lets himself be filmed so he falls under suspicion as the Hood and is arrested. So that he can get Diggle to play the Hood and have the case dismissed. He knew eventually people would wonder why the Hood and Oliver came on the scene at the same time so he dealt with it.

Also the last neat thing is how there is a great mystery about the scars and what happened to Oliver in the five years. In the 2nd or 3rd episode Oliver goes to get info from the Bratva and he says he's a Captain and you're going "What?!" It is neat to see this again knowing how all the pieces fit already.

I will say this though, the acting at times is still not great. Sometimes lines and scenes feel clunky. But overall it's good enough that I want to watch 2 or 3 episodes a night and I only stop because I have work the next morning.

PPP









Posted with Mozilla Firefox 53.0 on Windows 7
Kev Agent of The Shadow


Location: Fair Oaks CA aka Rivendell
Member Since: Tue Jun 01, 2004
Posts: 2,291



    Quote:
    You had a great idea! I'm watching Season 1 now too.



    Quote:
    Watching Season 5 almost felt like a chore. Watching season 1 again even though I've already seen it is really exciting.



    Quote:
    There is the good mix between "family" and action.



    Quote:
    Oliver is forced to lie to his family for "the greater good."



    Quote:
    And forced to play a bumbling Oliver for the public.



    Quote:
    Detective Lance is constantly dogging him.



    Quote:
    The flashbacks are compelling. Oliver really is a completely different person and you have no clue how the Oliver of the past can become the Oliver of the present.



    Quote:
    Oliver sets up his secret base and starts fighting crime himself. He is examining evidence and solving investigative problems. A big different from when Felicity does everything but punch people.



    Quote:
    Oliver is also steps ahead of EVERYONE. Like when he lets himself be filmed so he falls under suspicion as the Hood and is arrested. So that he can get Diggle to play the Hood and have the case dismissed. He knew eventually people would wonder why the Hood and Oliver came on the scene at the same time so he dealt with it.



    Quote:
    Also the last neat thing is how there is a great mystery about the scars and what happened to Oliver in the five years. In the 2nd or 3rd episode Oliver goes to get info from the Bratva and he says he's a Captain and you're going "What?!" It is neat to see this again knowing how all the pieces fit already.



    Quote:
    I will say this though, the acting at times is still not great. Sometimes lines and scenes feel clunky. But overall it's good enough that I want to watch 2 or 3 episodes a night and I only stop because I have work the next morning.



    Quote:
    PPP


I give you fair warning 3Pete the first season was so gripping I ordered Season 2 and just kept right on going. So beware you may have an Amazon expenditure in the near future. \:\)





KATS latest read: The Shadow-The Kings of Crime by Maxwell Grant
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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,060


I dont need to worry. All 5 seasons are on Netflix. \:\)

Thanks for the warning. I plan on watching the 2nd season I remember it being really good.

PPP





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