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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,260


I'm sure that I won't like it as much today (Probably because I read a ton of Jenkin's work, and a lot of it reads the same.), but I was reading the Paul Jenkins Hulk run when it came out (I read pretty much EVERYTHING back then!), and I liked it quite a bit (At least the first year or so.). The art by Ron Garney sure didn't hurt either, and I thought that General Ryker was actually a decent villain (Who has been used at least once since, hasn't he?).
But I remember reading that PAD had some problems with it, especially all of the Professor stuff that Paul did. What exactly did people have problems with? Did Jenkins retcon anything? I also thought that the Devil Hulk was pretty cool as well. And The Abomination fight in Hulk #25 was one of my all-time favorites, and just might be THE best ABomb story.


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TheMadderIGet


Member Since: Tue Jul 04, 2017
Posts: 66


Abomination fight in #25 was good. It made up for the crap left over from the previous writer who came after PAD.

Jenkins was PAD-lite. None of the humor or pathos of PAD. Plus he had clown Hulks and all sorts of crap Hulks.

I also blame him for everyone calling the Grey Hulk Joe Fixit. That was just an alias. Gray Hulk never considered himself a thug. He was a Hulk. Now every time someone brings him around he's a Mafioso.


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Jamo


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,013




    Quote:
    I also blame him for everyone calling the Grey Hulk Joe Fixit. That was just an alias. Gray Hulk never considered himself a thug. He was a Hulk. Now every time someone brings him around he's a Mafioso.


THIS!
Yes, yes, YES!




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Jamo


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,013


PAD wasn't fond of it because it basically retconned his merger storyline into the Merged Hulk being another personality now called the Professor.
I can't remember if I read it in Wizard Magazine, or on his website, the Merged Hulk was not supposed to be a new personality. It was a whole Bruce Banner in a composite Hulks/Banner body. And like everything else positive in Banner's life, it fell apart and his personality fractured again.

My beef with Jenkins run was the Devil Hulk (a snake, WTF?) and all those hundreds of various Hulk personalities in hiding.
I wasn't a fan of the Hulks being two separate personalities, as I was stuck (and still am) with the explanation that the Gray Hulk was the original and only Hulk-form and further gamma radiation mutated him into the Green Hulk. Same personality, same Hulk. Just bigger, stronger and meaner.




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Bob Oldman


Member Since: Mon Feb 01, 2010
Posts: 241


I, personally, hated the retcon of the Merged Hulk being a separate personality. Giving Banner a "devil" side along with hundreds of other personalities ( clown Hulk?) just added needless complications to the character. Specifically naming the Gray Hulk "Joe Fixit" was more annoying than anything.

But probably the worst thing was that Jenkins started off so strong (retcon not withstanding) and then seemed to lose interest in the series. IIRC, Jenkins was involved in other projects at the time - leaving another writer to finish up his run. I think sales suffered as a result of Jenkins indifference, thus leading to Marvel giving the series to Alonso and Jones.


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Butthead1


Member Since: Fri Jul 28, 2017
Posts: 38



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Charlie 

Moderator

Location: Vermont
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,925


The Professor retcon was a pretty big bone of contention. It didn't help that the explanation for who the Professor was changed every few issues.

I think the big problem with the run was a series of weak endings. Dogs of War was a good storyline that ended with the big new villain just...leaving. The Devil Hulk thing went nowhere, too. And Banner having ALS got wrapped up by the Leader popping up out of nowhere and handing Banner the cure.

I think the run was partly a victim of Jenkins' success at the time. He became a big name at Marvel, got a ton of work, and seemed to put his Hulk stuff on the backburner.




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Gamma Ra


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,298



I was planning on staying away from this post, as I've complained about Paul Jenkins' run on the Hulk many times over the years. Also, pretty much all my concerns have been voiced by others below. I have to first state that I am one that believes in giving a writer free reign to express their vision of a character, however that should never be at the expence or neglect of the characters history. Any new added ideas or directions must organically flow and fit within the history and scope of the character. With that said, Paul Jenkins failed to deliver.

Not all his ideas were entirely bad, but his follow through and lack of vision caused his run to suffer. Whether one liked or agreed with Peter David's Hulk run, what one can not do is claim that Peter David haphazardly wrote anything to his whim. I'm not a big Merged Hulk fan (the Professor Hulk is not the Merged Hulk that PAD wrote) but what lead to his creation made logical sense comic book wise. Peter David explored and fleshed out the Hulk in a way that no one before had. Bill Mantlo was actually exploring just who and what both Banner and Hulk were, but never took it to where Peter David did. It was a thought provoking 12 year run that was reduced to a memory with a few issues that lacked any real exposition. 12 years of excellent Hulk lore was destroyed in a few panels.

I gave Paul Jenkins the chance to impress me as I do all new writers. I even played the Paul Jenkins 'Make a new Hulk Personality Game'. He introduced the Devil Hulk and never really got to the core of why Banner had that “evil” in him. All those other thousands of Hulks in Banner were introduced for seemingly no reason at all. None played a roll in Jenkins’ run except the Devil Hulk and that was minimal. Some of the Hulks were even ridiculous and did not fit into the history of Hulk lore. Caterpillar Hulk?!? Why would Banner turn into a Caterpillar Hulk?!?

With that said not eveything about his run was bad. I loved his Gray Hulk issue. He at least understood the Hulk is in part Banner's "inner self defense mechanism externalized", something that Bill Mantlo suggested. I liked the idea of General Ryker, who I think can be used effectively if they go back to the core history that Jenkins used to set him up.

All in all I think the lack of knowledge, history and care for the Hulk, caused his run to fail!

Note - I mostly blame the editors for lack of character consistency.





He's... A Man-like MONSTER ...an INCREDIBLE force! He's... ASTONISHING! That's why you don't comprehend him; and because he IS......RAMPAGING; the Hater will not tolerate him SAVAGE, INDESTRUCTIBLE, nor his IMMORTAL abilities!!! Watch out for that Burst of Gamma - the WORLD BREAKER!!!
Stan Lee - "The way I established the Hulk, the more he fought, the stronger he got...I assume at some point he'll get worn out, but NEVER the Hulk." Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine Oct 2006 issue - Proceeding Message from the CHURCH OF HULK!!! Don't get Assassinated!
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Charlie 

Moderator

Location: Vermont
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,925



    Quote:
    It was a thought provoking 12 year run that was reduced to a memory with a few issues that lacked any real exposition. 12 years of excellent Hulk lore was destroyed in a few panels.


To defend Jenkins a bit, one could easily argue that PAD threw out important bits of Hulk lore during his run - and that's not even touching on his second stint on the book where his first storyline existed mainly to give readers who didn't like Bruce Jones' run an out.

Jenkins was within his rights to retcon the merged Hulk into the Professor personality. That type of stuff is something that comic writers often do. However, I think the problem with the retcon was that it never went anywhere. The discovery that the Professor was just another aspect of Bruce led to no confrontation between that incarnation and Banner. It led to no real character development. The only way it served the story was that it gave a smart green Hulk to show up whenever Jenkins needed a Banner Hulk stand-in.

A good story has all the parts serve a larger theme. Jenkins put the pieces in place for something that probably should have taken 5-6 years to set up, but he left quickly as new projects came in. As such, things like the Professor Hulk revelation fell flat because they introduced a lot of potential new stories but never delivered on any of them.


    Quote:
    Caterpillar Hulk?!? Why would Banner turn into a Caterpillar Hulk?!?


Well, since the caterpillar is often seen as a symbol of growth and change, I would argue that this is one of the most apt incarnations Jenkins showed off.


    Quote:
    All in all I think the lack of knowledge, history and care for the Hulk, caused his run to fail!


I think he had plenty of knowledge and care about the character - just a different interpretation on them than fans here would prefer.




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TheMadderIGet


Member Since: Tue Jul 04, 2017
Posts: 66


We are going to agree to disagree here. A caterpillar Hulk and a clown Hulk had no business being there. Lazy writing.

The Devil Hulk was trash.

All ideas terribly executed.

A poor man's riff on PAD's run.


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Gamma Ra


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,298




    Quote:

      Quote:
      It was a thought provoking 12 year run that was reduced to a memory with a few issues that lacked any real exposition. 12 years of excellent Hulk lore was destroyed in a few panels.



    Quote:
    To defend Jenkins a bit, one could easily argue that PAD threw out important bits of Hulk lore during his run - and that's not even touching on his second stint on the book where his first storyline existed mainly to give readers who didn't like Bruce Jones' run an out.


This is true to a small extent, but I still stand on the point that at least PAD added well planned out characterization to the Hulk mythos. If Paul Jenkins had a plan and I don't doubt he did, it did not pan out. Believe me I have a few concerns with PAD's run and some of his Hulk work after his first run.


    Quote:
    Jenkins was within his rights to retcon the merged Hulk into the Professor personality. That type of stuff is something that comic writers often do. However, I think the problem with the retcon was that it never went anywhere. The discovery that the Professor was just another aspect of Bruce led to no confrontation between that incarnation and Banner. It led to no real character development. The only way it served the story was that it gave a smart green Hulk to show up whenever Jenkins needed a Banner Hulk stand-in.


This is pretty much my stance, but the retcon was done without rhyme or reason and never given a satisfactory explaination as you've noted below. As I stated above, I have no problem with writers being creative. The concern I have is destroying a good idea without giving much thought to what preceded it and replacing it with a half-a$$39 less thought out explanation.


    Quote:
    A good story has all the parts serve a larger theme. Jenkins put the pieces in place for something that probably should have taken 5-6 years to set up, but he left quickly as new projects came in. As such, things like the Professor Hulk revelation fell flat because they introduced a lot of potential new stories but never delivered on any of them.


Yes indeed. Which is my major complaint, not so much that he changed great ideas, but that he never followed through on the ones he implemented. I can't say for certain if I would have enjoyed his run had he stuck around to some end, but he didn't, and because of it his run was left with nothing more than many open plotlines.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Caterpillar Hulk?!? Why would Banner turn into a Caterpillar Hulk?!?



    Quote:
    Well, since the caterpillar is often seen as a symbol of growth and change, I would argue that this is one of the most apt incarnations Jenkins showed off.


Metaphorically and symbolically speaking yes, but it just doesn't fit on a physical level within the history of Banner's metamorphosis IMO. I even wrote a story that steamed from an idea I once posted on this board many many years ago about how Hulk ended up floating in space and how the natural occuring gamma energy cacooned him and further transfomed him.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      All in all I think the lack of knowledge, history and care for the Hulk, caused his run to fail!



    Quote:
    I think he had plenty of knowledge and care about the character - just a different interpretation on them than fans here would prefer.


Certainly a different interpretation.






He's... A Man-like MONSTER ...an INCREDIBLE force! He's... ASTONISHING! That's why you don't comprehend him; and because he IS......RAMPAGING; the Hater will not tolerate him SAVAGE, INDESTRUCTIBLE, nor his IMMORTAL abilities!!! Watch out for that Burst of Gamma - the WORLD BREAKER!!!
Stan Lee - "The way I established the Hulk, the more he fought, the stronger he got...I assume at some point he'll get worn out, but NEVER the Hulk." Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine Oct 2006 issue - Proceeding Message from the CHURCH OF HULK!!! Don't get Assassinated!
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Gamma Ra


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,298




    Quote:
    We are going to agree to disagree here. A caterpillar Hulk and a clown Hulk had no business being there. Lazy writing.


I agree.

Maybe if he fleshed out that thought as to "why".


    Quote:
    The Devil Hulk was trash.


He bought him into play and just didn't do anything with it.


    Quote:
    All ideas terribly executed.


Agree.


    Quote:
    A poor man's riff on PAD's run.


Other than bringing back the psychological aspects that were put to the side and forgotten after PAD left the book, I do believe Paul Jenkins was trying to add his own flavor to the book.







He's... A Man-like MONSTER ...an INCREDIBLE force! He's... ASTONISHING! That's why you don't comprehend him; and because he IS......RAMPAGING; the Hater will not tolerate him SAVAGE, INDESTRUCTIBLE, nor his IMMORTAL abilities!!! Watch out for that Burst of Gamma - the WORLD BREAKER!!!
Stan Lee - "The way I established the Hulk, the more he fought, the stronger he got...I assume at some point he'll get worn out, but NEVER the Hulk." Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine Oct 2006 issue - Proceeding Message from the CHURCH OF HULK!!! Don't get Assassinated!
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Butthead1


Member Since: Fri Jul 28, 2017
Posts: 38



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Butthead1


Member Since: Fri Jul 28, 2017
Posts: 38


I tend to think PAD's Tempest Fugit helped recton and maybe gave readers an out from Jenkins Run as well as Jones Run. I think it could have been fair to say The Professor just came out of the cave like The Devil Hulk and was not the same character as The Merged Hulk since Professor was left handed and Merged was right handed. I wish PAD would have said that later in addition to it all being a possible dream. It could have been an interesting story to see a confrontation between Banner and Professor like he had with Doc Green.


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Gamma Ra


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,298





He's... A Man-like MONSTER ...an INCREDIBLE force! He's... ASTONISHING! That's why you don't comprehend him; and because he IS......RAMPAGING; the Hater will not tolerate him SAVAGE, INDESTRUCTIBLE, nor his IMMORTAL abilities!!! Watch out for that Burst of Gamma - the WORLD BREAKER!!!
Stan Lee - "The way I established the Hulk, the more he fought, the stronger he got...I assume at some point he'll get worn out, but NEVER the Hulk." Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine Oct 2006 issue - Proceeding Message from the CHURCH OF HULK!!! Don't get Assassinated!
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Butthead1


Member Since: Fri Jul 28, 2017
Posts: 38



Posted with Google Chrome 59.0.3071.115 on Windows 7
Butthead1


Member Since: Fri Jul 28, 2017
Posts: 38


Let's not forget a huge part of what made The Merged Hulk run so good was Keown and Frank's outstanding art work.


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Gamma Ra


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,298




    Quote:
    Let's not forget a huge part of what made The Merged Hulk run so good was Keown and Frank's outstanding art work.


This is true, but sometimes even with fantastic art, a title will suffer if the story is not appealing.





He's... A Man-like MONSTER ...an INCREDIBLE force! He's... ASTONISHING! That's why you don't comprehend him; and because he IS......RAMPAGING; the Hater will not tolerate him SAVAGE, INDESTRUCTIBLE, nor his IMMORTAL abilities!!! Watch out for that Burst of Gamma - the WORLD BREAKER!!!
Stan Lee - "The way I established the Hulk, the more he fought, the stronger he got...I assume at some point he'll get worn out, but NEVER the Hulk." Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine Oct 2006 issue - Proceeding Message from the CHURCH OF HULK!!! Don't get Assassinated!
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Charlie 

Moderator

Location: Vermont
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,925


I get what PAD was trying to do for fans in Tempest Fugit.

However, I don't see the difference between PAD retconning away Jenkins/Jones (even if he was ambiguous about it) and Byrne going through with his threat of retconning away PAD's run when he came back circa 2000.

To set it up so one writer's work doesn't really "count" strikes me as disrespectful (although I doubt PAD intended it as personal disrespect to those writers).

I also think that stories that have a primary purpose of cleaning up continuity don't often tell very good stories on their own. In my opinion, Tempest Fugit was fairly mediocre as a story, but the one-shot "Dear Trisha" that followed focused on just telling a great Hulk story and is one of the best comics I've read.




Conquest of Greystone Valley - Enter the world between worlds.
CHBROOKS.COM - Check out my many journeys into the realm of publication!
THE SCREAMSHEET - 10% satisfaction guaranteed.
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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,750



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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,750


Garney's art was fantastic. My problem with Jenkin's run starts with how they went out of their way to redefine the "Merged" Hulk as being not a merge but another personality. I was so happy to see the Merged Hulk back, and then 2 pages later Jenkins is saying that Merged wasn't what PAD defined him as at all. From there, the whole thing just fell apart for me. Riker was a great villain though!


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Nivek


Location: Orlando, FL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 241


He just didn't. It was heartbreaking, but the last 20 years have kind of sucked being a Hulk fan in general.


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Nivek


Location: Orlando, FL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 241


Yup. I feel like everything around 2000 made every dumb Hulk misconception we currently have.


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,750




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