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Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
Author
The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,320


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuAx5KVGNQ

Stark's entire speech in the above video is incredibly arrogant, but it also makes the audience cheer, because he is allowed to back it up with righteous fury, cunning, and results. Arrogance isn't Stark's problem. It's that most comic writers don't like him, and so immediately follow up him saying something like that with him getting emasculated.




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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,857



    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuAx5KVGNQ



    Quote:
    Stark's entire speech in the above video is incredibly arrogant, but it also makes the audience cheer, because he is allowed to back it up with righteous fury, cunning, and results. Arrogance isn't Stark's problem. It's that most comic writers don't like him, and so immediately follow up him saying something like that with him getting emasculated.


One of the best scenes in any Marvel movie. Loved it.

As for comic book writers, assuming it's true they actually don't like Tony Stark, I have to wonder how they feel about Bruce Wayne, who is also rich, smart, a self-made champion, and (in modern times) smug and impatient.






Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,865




    Quote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuAx5KVGNQ



    Quote:
    Stark's entire speech in the above video is incredibly arrogant, but it also makes the audience cheer, because he is allowed to back it up with righteous fury, cunning, and results. Arrogance isn't Stark's problem. It's that most comic writers don't like him, and so immediately follow up him saying something like that with him getting emasculated.



He also needed to stall for Jarvis to finish his new armor. (He may have told Loki he wasn't stalling, but he couldn't very well tell Loki what he was really doing could he?) His speech had a lot of bravado, but it's possible to look at the speech as stopping just short of being truly arrogant.

If I'm not mistaken, the same director of that scene also had Batfleck be what would usually be uncharacteristically humble during Justice League; just to make up for the arrogance and murderous tendencies he (Batman) was showing during Batman v Superman. The point being that at least Joss Whedon is aware that arrogance can be overdone in a character.







America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,857



    Quote:

    He also needed to stall for Jarvis to finish his new armor. (He may have told Loki he wasn't stalling, but he couldn't very well tell Loki what he was really doing could he?) His speech had a lot of bravado, but it's possible to look at the speech as stopping just short of being truly arrogant.


I agree. What the speech had was "swagger." It could almost have been put to rhyme and made into a rap song.

In addition to stalling for time, I think Tony was actually trying to put some doubt into Loki's mind. The invasion might succeed but Loki wouldn't survive it, at least not unscathed, because the Avengers would target him to the end.


    Quote:
    If I'm not mistaken, the same director of that scene also had Batfleck be what would usually be uncharacteristically humble during Justice League; just to make up for the arrogance and murderous tendencies he (Batman) was showing during Batman v Superman. The point being that at least Joss Whedon is aware that arrogance can be overdone in a character.


See? It's always Batman we compare to Tony. Batman, whom everybody thinks is just so awesome. It amazes me that Marvel never really gets the message. Tony is their Batman. Not Cap. Not Moon Knight. Not the Panther. Not (if we're grasping at straws) the Punisher. Marvel's Batman is Iron Man. But Marvel seems oblivious or resistant to this fact.

Sure, the two characters are different. Tony pilots a form-fitting fighter jet while Bruce swoops around with an entirely impractical cape blowing in the wind. But Tony built that fighter jet, and Bruce built the warrior's body and detective's mind he wields against criminals. Both men are self-made champions. They both represent the best that humanity is capable of.

We're used to thinking like that about Batman: the best that humanity is capable of. Why does it feel odd to think about Tony that way? It shouldn't feel odd. The plain truth is, humanity is the ape that developed technology, and Tony is the supreme avatar of the technologist, while also being brave, selfless, and relentless in the pursuit of justice. Tony is the ultimate man. Bruce, likewise, is the ultimate man, just from a different angle.

If Marvel could only grasp this - that Tony is their Batman - their whole vision of where to go with him would radically change.












Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,865



Sorry, but it's not quite like that. Tony isn't Marvels Batman. If Marvel has a Batman, (and I'm not sure they do) it would be the Black Panther.

What Tony Stark is, is Marvel's Bruce Wayne. By this I mean that when he created Iron Man, Stan Lee used what Bruce Wayne pretended to be to the world at large, a character so into himself, nobody should ever believe this self centered man could be a hero. Stan turned the concept on it's head when he showed that what DC thought nobody would believe was capable of more, and then created a hero out of him. But his methods are vastly different. Hes never used use the night like Batman, or worked to create fear like Batman.

BTW, Stan did this for one other hero also. Just like Tony Stark is Marvel's Bruce Wayne, he took the concept of what everyone in the DC world believed about Clark Kent and then created Peter Parker.

But Tony isn't Marvel's Batman any more than Peter is Marvel's Superman.




America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,857



    Quote:

    Sorry, but it's not quite like that. Tony isn't Marvels Batman. If Marvel has a Batman, (and I'm not sure they do) it would be the Black Panther.


I would say the Black Panther is Marvel's Aquaman. I look beyond the surface stuff like being aquatic. T'Challa is king of a mighty nation that is usually at peace with other nations and he is also an Avenger and often there is tension between these two roles. Arthur is king of a mighty nation that is usually at peace with the surface world and he is also a member of the Justice League and often there is tension between these two roles.


    Quote:
    What Tony Stark is, is Marvel's Bruce Wayne. By this I mean that when he created Iron Man, Stan Lee used what Bruce Wayne pretended to be to the world at large, a character so into himself, nobody should ever believe this self centered man could be a hero. Stan turned the concept on it's head when he showed that what DC thought nobody would believe was capable of more, and then created a hero out of him.


Hmm. OK. So Iron Man is a reversal of Batman. Interesting. But Tony stopped being so self-centered the instant Ho Yinsen gave his life. Does your theory account for that drastic personality change?


    Quote:
    But his methods are vastly different. Hes never used use the night like Batman, or worked to create fear like Batman.


That's surface stuff that I don't think is important. Night and scare tactics, batarangs and bat-ropes, batmobiles and bat-subs, and his dual friendship with Commissioner Gordon (as both Batman and as Bruce) are all just how he gets the job done. Iron Man has his form-fitting fighter jet that he designed in his own mind and built with his own hands. What matters, in my opinion, is that neither was bitten by a radioactive spider or subjected to cosmic rays. They're both self-made champions. Now of course Iron Man has Superman elements as well, due to what his armor can accomplish. What I really should have said is, Iron Man is Marvel's combo of Batman and Superman.

ADDENDUM: I've recently been reading Bronze Age Batman, which of course, in my opinion, is the gold standard, and I'm watching him be a (gasp) DETECTIVE. Len Wein is the writer of the stories I'm reading. Any way, 21st century Batman almost never does detective work, nor is he a detective in the movies, so I had forgotten that aspect. This was an error on my part. Marvel does not have a detective superhero except maybe Moon Knight sometimes, when he isn't simply being nuts. Daredevil beats people up for information, and so does the Punisher, but I don't consider either of them legitimate detectives, though Daredevil would always have made a formidable one with his super senses. Certainly IRON MAN is not a detective. This is important and I was placing no importance on it. Duh.


    Quote:
    BTW, Stan did this for one other hero also. Just like Tony Stark is Marvel's Bruce Wayne, he took the concept of what everyone in the DC world believed about Clark Kent and then created Peter Parker.


I've always thought Peter Parker was Jimmy Olsen as the hero.


    Quote:
    But Tony isn't Marvel's Batman any more than Peter is Marvel's Superman.








Posted with Google Chrome 63.0.3239.132 on Windows 10
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,865




    Quote:
    I would say the Black Panther is Marvel's Aquaman. I look beyond the surface stuff like being aquatic. T'Challa is king of a mighty nation that is usually at peace with other nations and he is also an Avenger and often there is tension between these two roles. Arthur is king of a mighty nation that is usually at peace with the surface world and he is also a member of the Justice League and often there is tension between these two roles.


If you say so. After thinking it over for a day or so, I have come to the conclusion that the Panther isn't Marvels Batman, but that's just because Marvel doesn't have a Batman.


I'm thinking of this comparison as more of a "men behind the curtain" thing. To the outside world, Batman and Iron Man operate in completely different ways. Batman uses mystery and stealth more than most others; Iron Man uses cutting edge high tech five or ten times as much as Batman.

But behind the curtain, within and amoung their respective teams, Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark operate in very similar ways. This, and the fact that when Tony began his own heroic journey, the fact that he was very close to what Bruce pretended to the world at large the sort of person "Bruce Wayne" was, is why I call Tony Marvel's Bruce Wayne








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