Iron Man Message Board >> View Thread

Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.186 on Windows 10
Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.186 on Windows 10
Author
Leonard


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,005



Artist Valerio Schiti will join writer Dan Slott for Marvel’s new Iron Man comic. the series, titled Tony Stark: Iron Man. But while the armored Avengers is getting an all-new #1 for his part in the publisher’s “Fresh Start” initiative, Slott and Schiti assure fans the title will build on the hero’s long continuity, not reboot it.

“Everything counts,” Slott assured fans in an interview with Nerdist. “We’re going to play fair with all that’s happened to Tony from the very beginning all the way through to the most current runs… ALL the continuity counts. The legacy counts. But if you’re one of the billions of people on this Earth who only knows Iron Man from the movies, you can jump on right here for a fresh start.”

Of course, a new Iron Man comic has to come with new Iron Man armor, and Slott & Schiti plan to give fans exactly that — and then some. The book will actually feature hundreds of new armors for the founding Avenger, a challenge Schiti told Nerdist he’s more than up for — he’s looking forward to it. To me this is heaven. To do new designs is one of my favorite things in comics, and here I have the chance to play with such an iconic character, to try different styles, to use classic suits, and to create new and extraordinary armors.”

While Slott and Schiti aim to keep the character and his adventures accessible to new readers, particularly those who may have come to the world of Marvel Comics only after discovering the Marvel Cinematic Universe, longtime Iron Man fans should be pleased by the comic’s reverence for the character’s history. Slott promises the book will explore “new depths [and] new problems that make him somehow ironically similar to the Bronze Age version of himself,” while Schiti says the character will also exude the charm of Robert Downey Jr.’s take by being “funny, charming and cool.”

Tony Stark: Iron Man is expected to arrive in June 2018 from the creative team of Dan Slott and Valerio Schiti, with covers by Alexander Lozano.

from https://www.cbr.com/tony-stark-iron-man-dan-slott-valerie-schiti-fresh-start/?utm_source=CBR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&view=list


Hundreds of new armors? Tony's name right there in the title? Not a single reference to Riri or Amanda?

Well... we have been optimistic, and then burned before...


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 58.0 on Windows NT 4.0
The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,359


The thing is, when you actually ask someone who claims to consider continuity sacred what they mean, they typically refer to a particular take on the character that itself contradicts previous takes. Michelinie and Layton, whom some on this board treat as golden sacred cows, themselves contradicted bronze and silver age writers and even contradicted themselves between their first and second runs. So this supposed "continuity" obsession is a lie. It's a lie born of trying to bring the weight of history and tradition to what is really just a simple expression of a preference for a particular take.

Moreover, when writers attempt to reconcile continuity, the result is typically a dry, awkward, mess. A story or at least a chunk of a story that is just a big No-Prize, trying to neaten continuity that is so contradictory that it can only be neatened by the most tortured of Frankenstein stitching. The result lacks any entertainment value, because all it is is a big No-Prize pretending to be a story.

Now that's not to say I despise old continuity. For example, I prefer Silver/Bronze age Mandarin to what he mostly became from the eighties onward. I still think that that little five page origin story Stan Lee wrote for him was the best Mandarin story ever, combining the pathos of tortured aristocrats like Roman Sionis and a tortured super-soldier like X-23 with the disturbing exploitation of Christopher Columbus.

But I prefer that simply because I think the take Stan Lee had on the character was the best, not because I think Silver Age continuity is inherently sacred.






Posted with Mozilla Firefox 58.0 on Windows 10
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,698


It has gravitas. It means what the characters do and what happens to them have meaning. When you ignore continuity...nothing really matters. It's like serial versus episodic.

If the choices a character makes has ZERO lasting effect or meaning...you lose interest. Why should Cap care that the Red Skull killed Buckey and so many people...ehhh...hes a nice guy for no reason all of a sudden and all those dead people mean nothing.

I don't mean be a slave to it...but it builds the world the universe...the other way feels like a petulant child kicking over a sand castle.

Not saying you don't have a point on people may prefer certain areas/eras of continuity.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,572


The reason i think continuity is important is because without it these characters cannot grow or learn. What happened to them before should influence how they react to what comes next, because that's how people work.

Weve had too many years now where every new reboot or relaunch is simply an opportunity for a new writer to completely reinvent the wheel with no regard for anything that happened before their tenure, so we essentially end up with a dozen different Tony Starks.

How quickly did Stark forget the death of his best friend Jim Rhodes? Didnt seem to take him more than an issue or so.

People don't work like that. The death of a loved one is something you carry with you going forward and has a lasting burden - which is something we used to see revisited from time to time with Caps guilt over bucky's 'death'.

Did Stark not consider the problems with the last Civil War before deciding to get engaged in the next one? Why was he really surprised that the second Civil War had similar reprocussions to the previous one?

I'm not saying that such events should haunt his every living moment, but this is a guy with a momentous history filled with huge events, yet none of them inform his decisions. He doesnt learn, or grow, or develop - he continues to make the same dumb ass decisions time and time again.

I want to see all of these characters grow, and that cant be done without at least paying respect to continuity.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 58.0 on Windows 10
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,832



    Quote:
    Hundreds of new armors? Tony's name right there in the title? Not a single reference to Riri or Amanda?

    Well... we have been optimistic, and then burned before...


If I wanted to compare Dan Slott to two other writers, I would say that he reminds me David Michelinie (a lot !) and Tom DeFalco ( also a lot but to a lesser extent).

Many Spidey fans have criticized his work because they wanted MJ & the wedding back but Dan Slott was never responsible of One More Day (even for one small bit).

Others hated Superior Spider-Man, although, personally, I think that it was an amazing idea. I was certain that it wouldn't last, I enjoyed it and it is one of my favorite runs (except, perhaps, the conclusion).

So, with that in mind, I think that, on Iron Man, he will do what he likes best : mixing old elements with newer ones, pushing the limits and turning the volume up over 100%. Also, his storylines are built like an endless soap opera, with a lot of cliffhangers, and dominoes falling a long time after the elements had been prepared. He treats comics as a specific medium, different from novels & films, and he writes them as a writer would have during the Silver & Bronze Ages. I would define him as a neoclassic comics writer.

Just recently, he combined Green Goblin & the Carnage symbiote ...

...but, in the past, he also combined Phil Urich with the Hobgoblin. He also brought back Roderick Kingsley and an army of street-level villains. He also brought back forgotten characters such as Cardiac and the Queen.

He also had the idea of Ends of Earth, which is like the Michael Bay version of Doc Ock & the other Sinister Six attacking Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, the Intelligencia, etc.

Even though nobody expected that, he brought back Kaine, Jackal, the Clone Saga, Ben Reilly and the Carrion virus.

So, I think that he will look in the past of Iron Man to pick up what he likes and bring it back in a different context.


I don't know yet what he has planned but, with all that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if he brings back Justin Hammer from the dead and, also, if he tries to bring back Spymaster & Espionage Elite to their former Bronze Age glory.

Justin Hammer was a pastiche of Peter Cushing and is very similar to classic Bond villains like Goldfinger, Drax, Largo & Le Chiffre.
http://www.ironmanarmory.com/hammer.html

Spymaster's Espionage Elite was a pastiche of the Mission: Impossible team.
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/iron_man_33-35.shtml

It is the kind of pop culture reference that Dan Slott may like. Justin Hammer & Spymaster would be perfect if Dan Slott wants to start his Iron Man run by a spy thriller story.



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,832



    Quote:
    what is really just a simple expression of a preference for a particular take.


I agree with you. I even think that continuity is an illusion in comics.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,953



    Quote:

    Artist Valerio Schiti will join writer Dan Slott for Marvel’s new Iron Man comic. the series, titled Tony Stark: Iron Man. But while the armored Avengers is getting an all-new #1 for his part in the publisher’s “Fresh Start” initiative, Slott and Schiti assure fans the title will build on the hero’s long continuity, not reboot it.


Whenever someone from Marvel "assures fans" of something, my eyes glaze over. These people simply cannot be trusted. They say whatever they think will induce people to buy the comic.


    Quote:
    “Everything counts,” Slott assured fans in an interview with Nerdist. “We’re going to play fair with all that’s happened to Tony from the very beginning all the way through to the most current runs… ALL the continuity counts. The legacy counts. But if you’re one of the billions of people on this Earth who only knows Iron Man from the movies, you can jump on right here for a fresh start.”


Thoughts:
1. "Everything counts" may play out as an alcoholism relapse.
2. "Everything counts" may play out as a heart problem relapse.
3. I don't know how you build on continuity and give utter newbies a fresh start simultaneously. To me that's gibberish.


    Quote:
    Of course, a new Iron Man comic has to come with new Iron Man armor, and Slott & Schiti plan to give fans exactly that — and then some. The book will actually feature hundreds of new armors for the founding Avenger, a challenge Schiti told Nerdist he’s more than up for — he’s looking forward to it. To me this is heaven. To do new designs is one of my favorite things in comics, and here I have the chance to play with such an iconic character, to try different styles, to use classic suits, and to create new and extraordinary armors.”


New armors are usually fun. But hundreds? That seems a little over the top. What I think it means is, we'll see armors of all shapes and sizes but we won't get any insight into how they differ functionally, assuming they even do.


    Quote:
    ...while Schiti says the character will also exude the charm of Robert Downey Jr.’s take by being “funny, charming and cool.”


That may be fun. Especially with Slott writing the dialogue.


    Quote:
    Hundreds of new armors? Tony's name right there in the title? Not a single reference to Riri or Amanda?


"Everything counts" may mean Riri and Amanda do not go away.


    Quote:
    Well... we have been optimistic, and then burned before...


I'm rarely optimistic about 21st century comics. But every once in a while I'm very pleasantly surprised. We'll see.






Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.186 on Windows 10
America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,953



    Quote:
    The thing is, when you actually ask someone who claims to consider continuity sacred what they mean, they typically refer to a particular take on the character that itself contradicts previous takes. Michelinie and Layton, whom some on this board treat as golden sacred cows, themselves contradicted bronze and silver age writers and even contradicted themselves between their first and second runs. So this supposed "continuity" obsession is a lie. It's a lie born of trying to bring the weight of history and tradition to what is really just a simple expression of a preference for a particular take.


I think there are three types of people:

1. Those for whom your statement above holds true (and I'm one of them)

2. Those for whom your statement above does not hold true, and I know such people exist, and in fact we have the pleasure of their company on these very boards

3. Those who don't even try to say continuity matters. They just don't care at all. Give them good art with explosions and jokes and they're satisfied. These are the people Bendis writes for, and they are legion.


    Quote:
    Moreover, when writers attempt to reconcile continuity, the result is typically a dry, awkward, mess. A story or at least a chunk of a story that is just a big No-Prize, trying to neaten continuity that is so contradictory that it can only be neatened by the most tortured of Frankenstein stitching. The result lacks any entertainment value, because all it is is a big No-Prize pretending to be a story.


Oh yes. I strongly agree. Don't reconcile disparate continuity streams. Pick the one you like and reference the heck out of it.

My only pet peeve is this:

If you're going to use a character, then reference that character's most recent appearance and explain any point-A-to-point-B transition logistics. For example, if the Abomination was last seen on the moon with no way to get back to Earth, then take a few panels and explain how the Abomination got back to Earth. I don't need to know what the Abomination has been doing for the last 20 years. Just tell me how he got back to Earth and I'll be satisfied.


    Quote:
    Now that's not to say I despise old continuity. For example, I prefer Silver/Bronze age Mandarin to what he mostly became from the eighties onward. I still think that that little five page origin story Stan Lee wrote for him was the best Mandarin story ever, combining the pathos of tortured aristocrats like Roman Sionis and a tortured super-soldier like X-23 with the disturbing exploitation of Christopher Columbus.


And I would have no problem with a writer who went back to that well and drew water from it. Which doesn't mean the writer needs to contradict intervening continuity. Simply don't reference it. With one caveat as already noted: Reference the character's most recent appearance.

But the "most recent appearance" principle forces us to contend with some irritating stuff, unfortunately. Does anybody really want Doctor Doom to be a good guy? Yet he's being presented right now as semi-good. What do we do about that? Semi-good Doctor Doom is useless for most stories I would ever want to read or write. Yet we can't just ignore these developments. They're too momentous. What's a writer to do? Don't use Doctor Doom - that would be my answer. Either that or tell a story that returns Doom to villain status.


    Quote:
    But I prefer that simply because I think the take Stan Lee had on the character was the best, not because I think Silver Age continuity is inherently sacred.


Exactly. What really irks me is the way writers will go out of their way to obliterate any vestige of more recent characters. Case in point: Warren Ellis's supporting characters from the Extremis story line. Now don't get me wrong. I mostly disliked that story line. But the supporting characters were interesting! There was no reason to kill them off. Simply don't use them if you don't like them.







Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.186 on Windows 10
Zarius


Member Since: Sun Sep 03, 2017
Posts: 184


Spidey fans criticize his work because he's a shit writer.


Posted with Google Chrome 64.0.3282.186 on Windows 7
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,882



The best example I can give is to point to the mess that Warner Brothers made of the DCEU when they thought to create a comic book universe with no regard to continuity.




The Mandarin


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,359


That universe was only a couple of movies old, so there was no continuity to contradict.

What made them bad was that Snyder's take on these characters lacked broad appeal.

Superman being sour didn't violate continuity in a universe where he had never been sweet. It simply wasn't one of the takes on how Superman should be that people wanted to see.

Superman rendering his teammates utterly pointless didn't violate continuity in a universe where they had never been close enough to him in power-level to be worthy allies. It simply wasn't a take on the characters that the general audience wanted to see in a team-movie.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 58.0 on Windows 10
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,882




    Quote:
    That universe was only a couple of movies old, so there was no continuity to contradict.



    Quote:
    What made them bad was that Snyder's take on these characters lacked broad appeal.



    Quote:
    Superman being sour didn't violate continuity in a universe where he had never been sweet. It simply wasn't one of the takes on how Superman should be that people wanted to see.



    Quote:
    Superman rendering his teammates utterly pointless didn't violate continuity in a universe where they had never been close enough to him in power-level to be worthy allies. It simply wasn't a take on the characters that the general audience wanted to see in a team-movie.


I'm not saying continuity was violated. There was no established continuity to violate, and that was the problem! There was no continuity in the first place when it clearly needed to be there.

It seemed that we were somehow supposed to know about the continuity of why Batman would be willing to brand criminals or want to be a killer of anyone, let alone someone he had never met.

Civil War worked and worked well as a movie (with a very similar premise) because the continuity with the characters made sense. It's probably not the only reason CW worked and BvS didn't, but its a great example of why continuity  building on what came before is important to complex story structure.





Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,832



    Quote:

    Spidey fans criticize his work because he's a shit writer.


Indeed, it often happens that some people criticize the work of somebody else because they dislike it. \:\-\)



Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,832



    Quote:
    My only pet peeve is this:

    If you're going to use a character, then reference that character's most recent appearance and explain any point-A-to-point-B transition logistics. For example, if the Abomination was last seen on the moon with no way to get back to Earth, then take a few panels and explain how the Abomination got back to Earth. I don't need to know what the Abomination has been doing for the last 20 years. Just tell me how he got back to Earth and I'll be satisfied.


I appreciate that as well. In comics, it is better to have a continuous line from one event to another. Continuity is illusionary in comics but only in the long run.

It is obvious for example that it was totally necessary to retcon Iron Man's origin and Warren Ellis' "new origin" has been accepted by most fans.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,769



People care about continuity when it's continuity they like. We're all too happy to forget the stories we didn't like.





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 58.0 on Windows 7
MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,698



    Quote:

    People care about continuity when it's continuity they like. We're all too happy to forget the stories we didn't like.



    Quote:



But we don't forget do we?

Simply one or two panel change it.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 10
Quoyle


Member Since: Sat Oct 08, 2016
Posts: 99


Or they insult him personally because they dislike his stories. Don't get me wrong, I disliked killing Peter as Doc Ock, it was horrid. But I don't think it's right to say he's a bad writer. I once tried to write a novel. I'm a bad writer. I've enjoyed his run on Spidey. I sincerely doubt he was allowed to get rid of OMD.


Posted with Google Chrome 31.0.1650.59 on Linux

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2018 Powermad Software