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emerick-man

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I miss you, Dan. I miss you, Dad. I miss you, Dan.
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    The smart looking banner prompts this dumb question...



    Quote:
    Whyyy did Marvel lump Wanda in with the villains???!!!


Well aside from mutant genocide and Avengers Disassembled this was the only thing I could think of...



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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    The smart looking banner prompts this dumb question...Whyyy did Marvel lump Wanda in with the villains???!!!


She was a villain under Bendis. Because he loves her.


    Quote:
    Well aside from mutant genocide and Avengers Disassembled this was the only thing I could think of...


That page was one of the most horrifying things I've ever read. What is it from?








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Reverend Meteor


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Avengers West Coast #56





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Iron Man Unit 007


Member Since: Thu Oct 20, 2011
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I did some digging for the old CBR legends link that talks about that rather infamous page. Simply put, the pages that went to print were NOT what we imagine that scene to be.

It was basically fixed from the original page that the top of Wanda's head was still on panel and her fingers were glowing from her power so that she could scratch into Simon's chest skin.

The original artwork however......well here's the link, see for yourself

https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-legends-revealed-365/


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I did some digging for the old CBR legends link that talks about that rather infamous page. Simply put, the pages that went to print were NOT what we imagine that scene to be.



    Quote:
    It was basically fixed from the original page that the top of Wanda's head was still on panel and her fingers were glowing from her power so that she could scratch into Simon's chest skin.



    Quote:
    The original artwork however......well here's the link, see for yourself


That was fascinating! Len Kaminski is an excellent storyteller, by the way. And pretty darn good with photoshop, too.

So now I hate Byrne even more than I did before. Not only did he obliterate one of the greatest comic book characters of all time (the Bronze Age Vision) and one of the greatest love stories of all time (the Vision and the Scarlet Witch) but he also laid all the groundwork for Disassembled and what followed. I never realized this before. Bendis was simply extrapolating from plot points that had all been laid down by Byrne.

Wow.










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Iron Man Unit 007


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Well I still hate Bendis, but yes Byrne did lay the groundwork.

However with all the reboots/retcons, I think we have the Bronze age Vision back, don't we?

However I still applaud that storyline as it did give us the return of the original Torch as I remembered reading Vision learning his origin from Immortus and wondering just why was Immortus being so kind and that I smelled a long term plan of some kind, as well as the scent of a rat in the form of Immortus.

Of course the problem is that too many writers don't know what to do with the Android Torch so they either blow him up and leave him "dead" for years until an anniversary event brings him back, or they just let him fade into the background since they all seem to think the MU can't have two or more Torches, which makes no sense.

Multiple Captain Americas: the original, Captain Stevil, the Falcon and USAgent.

Multiple Iron Man: the original plus War Machine

Multiple THOR: original, the current fake-THOR, Beta Ray Bill

Multiple Hulks: original, Cho, Red Hulk, She Hulk, Red She hulk, Abomination, A-Bomb....

As to Wanda loving the Vision yet not loving Wonder Man for so long, that also made little sense to me. Vision's mind is Simon Williams brain waves copied into Vision's brain circuits so in effect he was Simon Williams, albeit a copied version that lived his life in an android form, then the original version is mutated into a super hero yet still has the same emotions and thought processes for the most part so Simon loving Wanda made sense.


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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:
    As to Wanda loving the Vision yet not loving Wonder Man for so long, that also made little sense to me. Vision's mind is Simon Williams brain waves copied into Vision's brain circuits so in effect he was Simon Williams, albeit a copied version that lived his life in an android form, then the original version is mutated into a super hero yet still has the same emotions and thought processes for the most part so Simon loving Wanda made sense.

It takes more than brain waves to be a person. Vision never really was Simon. The two acted nothing alike.


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Reverend Meteor


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    Quote:
    Well I still hate Bendis, but yes Byrne did lay the groundwork.



    Quote:
    However with all the reboots/retcons, I think we have the Bronze age Vision back, don't we?



    Quote:
    However I still applaud that storyline as it did give us the return of the original Torch as I remembered reading Vision learning his origin from Immortus and wondering just why was Immortus being so kind and that I smelled a long term plan of some kind, as well as the scent of a rat in the form of Immortus.


Yeah I hated the idea of Vision being Jim Hammond. He was nothing like Jim Hammond.


    Quote:
    Of course the problem is that too many writers don't know what to do with the Android Torch so they either blow him up and leave him "dead" for years until an anniversary event brings him back, or they just let him fade into the background since they all seem to think the MU can't have two or more Torches, which makes no sense.



    Quote:
    Multiple Captain Americas: the original, Captain Stevil, the Falcon and USAgent.



    Quote:
    Multiple Iron Man: the original plus War Machine



    Quote:
    Multiple THOR: original, the current fake-THOR, Beta Ray Bill



    Quote:
    Multiple Hulks: original, Cho, Red Hulk, She Hulk, Red She hulk, Abomination, A-Bomb....



    Quote:
    As to Wanda loving the Vision yet not loving Wonder Man for so long, that also made little sense to me. Vision's mind is Simon Williams brain waves copied into Vision's brain circuits so in effect he was Simon Williams, albeit a copied version that lived his life in an android form, then the original version is mutated into a super hero yet still has the same emotions and thought processes for the most part so Simon loving Wanda made sense.


I always felt Wanda dated Simon because she couldn't really get Vision back. She didn't want the original...she wanted the guy she was married to. I don't buy that she ever loved Simon. Simon's kind of a male bimbo really without any depth.

Vision has some personality traits I guess he got from Simon but his life experiences (including being a robot) are his alone.

Reverend Meteor (not that I liked Wanda with Vision. But Simon's a tool)



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Comicguy1


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At least as of House of M.


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The Black Guardian

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There really doesn't seem to be much reason. This poster was made for Marvel's 75th anniversary in 2014, just before Original Sin. Wanda wasn't a villain at the time (though she was involved in AXIS much later in the year).


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    However with all the reboots/retcons, I think we have the Bronze age Vision back, don't we?


Not that I'm aware of. If he's not in love with Wanda then he's not the Bronze Age Vision. But there was more to it than that. The Bronze Age Vision was always in search of who he was and what his existence meant. He was trying to understand the nature of emotion and what it could possibly mean to have a soul (or not have one). He was trying to come to terms with being one of a kind in the world and not being a biological entity. I don't think we've seen any of that in decades except during the Busiek run and maybe just prior - I don't know. And then came Bendis.

I didn't like the Busiek run but I give him credit for presenting a recognizable Vision. I don't know if he inherited that version or established it himself.


    Quote:
    However I still applaud that storyline as it did give us the return of the original Torch as I remembered reading Vision learning his origin from Immortus and wondering just why was Immortus being so kind and that I smelled a long term plan of some kind, as well as the scent of a rat in the form of Immortus.


I can't stand the idea that the Vision was the Torch. Why would anyone go there? The Torch and the Vision are two different characters. Why try to make them one and the same?

I just don't understand why we needed any of this weird garbage. The Vision was the Vision. He was made by Ultron and contrary to Ultron's expectations he had emotions. He could have aligned with his maker but instead turned against him and aligned with the Avengers. Contrary to anyone's expectations, he fell in love. That's all we ever needed to know.


    Quote:
    As to Wanda loving the Vision yet not loving Wonder Man for so long, that also made little sense to me. Vision's mind is Simon Williams brain waves copied into Vision's brain circuits so in effect he was Simon Williams, albeit a copied version that lived his life in an android form, then the original version is mutated into a super hero yet still has the same emotions and thought processes for the most part so Simon loving Wanda made sense.


The Vision was absolutely not Simon Williams in a plastic body. Their personalities were light years apart. The Vision's closest personality analogue is the Silver Surfer. Simon's closest personality analogue is Warren Worthington.







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Iron Man Unit 007


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True but for a long time, Vision had a crystal in his head from Ultron that was meant to control him and it did modulate his personality and voice.

He removed it after he tried to make himself like the ISAAC computer on Titan and take over all the computers of Earth


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Iron Man Unit 007


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Going off some dusty memories but Johnny Storm was called the Human Torch by Stan Lee as they apparently didn't want to think of another name to use and that Marvel didn't at the time want to bring back any of the golden age characters like Torch, Cap and Namor.

Then fan demand spoke and we get Cap retconned into being on ice since the war and Namor wandering amnesiac until Johnny stumbled across him.

But the Torch was left behind until Immortus gives Vision a journey of "Discovery" and we learned that Vision is really a reformatted Torch.

Ultron forces Torch's creator to reformat his body and remove the flame powers and give him density control, the solar jewel on the head, the laser eyes, but it was Ultron that had to erase his memory banks and program him with Simon's brain waves. Thus the Torch was considered dead.

Yet things didnt seem right on that origin trip that Vision had as the Torch was supposedly buried in the funeral scenario of the Mad Thinker that trapped Toro and led to Toro's demise, a demise that made no sense by the way. How does someone with flame powers and can absorb flame perish in a fiery explosion? Plus there is the abandoned plot thread of the Professor Raymond from Power Pack who exhibited flame powers....

So there was apparently a Torch in a grave and a Torch reformatted into the Vision. I liked the explanation that was given that Ultron built the Vision from spare parts left over from the Torch being built. That made sense.

Then came Avengers Forever were Immortus is again used....and he temporally split Torch into two Torches, one becomes the Vision one remains the Torch thus the initial origin story of Vision is preserved.

What a Gordian knot the Torch has become.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    True but for a long time, Vision had a crystal in his head from Ultron that was meant to control him and it did modulate his personality and voice.


Assuming that's the case - and I had never heard of this but maybe it was emphasized after Roy Thomas left the book - then the crystal is a part of the Vision's body. Every portion of the Vision's body from head to toe was built by Ultron. The crystal is no different. We humans have components in our brains that modulate our personality and voice. The Vision does too, apparently.


    Quote:
    He removed it after he tried to make himself like the ISAAC computer on Titan and take over all the computers of Earth


This was self-immolation. It would be like you or me removing parts of our cerebrums or cerebellums. He amputated a part of himself to accomplish some objective. Who wrote this? John Byrne?







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Reverend Meteor


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    Quote:
    Going off some dusty memories but Johnny Storm was called the Human Torch by Stan Lee as they apparently didn't want to think of another name to use and that Marvel didn't at the time want to bring back any of the golden age characters like Torch, Cap and Namor.



    Quote:
    Then fan demand spoke and we get Cap retconned into being on ice since the war and Namor wandering amnesiac until Johnny stumbled across him.



    Quote:
    But the Torch was left behind until Immortus gives Vision a journey of "Discovery" and we learned that Vision is really a reformatted Torch.



    Quote:
    Ultron forces Torch's creator to reformat his body and remove the flame powers and give him density control, the solar jewel on the head, the laser eyes, but it was Ultron that had to erase his memory banks and program him with Simon's brain waves. Thus the Torch was considered dead.



    Quote:
    Yet things didnt seem right on that origin trip that Vision had as the Torch was supposedly buried in the funeral scenario of the Mad Thinker that trapped Toro and led to Toro's demise, a demise that made no sense by the way. How does someone with flame powers and can absorb flame perish in a fiery explosion? Plus there is the abandoned plot thread of the Professor Raymond from Power Pack who exhibited flame powers....


And you mentioning Mr. Raymond gives me the perfect excuse to work in my fanwank theory that Frankie Raye is really Toro's daughter and that was Byrne's plan all along. The Power Pack issues with Mr. Raymond hint that Raymond is Toro (Thomas Raymond) and Frankie's father. But back in Byrne's Fantastic Four the clues were there. Frankie's step father was Phineas Horton living under the name Thomas Raye. Toro's father Fred was Horton's lab assistant and Horton may have felt responsible that his experiments led to Fred and Nora's son having the exact same powers as the robot he built.

Byrne was working towards some revelation on Toro being Frankie's father. And who does Byrne reintroduce in his Avengers West Coast...Toro's widow Ann Raymond. We were never told who Frankie's mother was either except that she was supposedly married to Phineas/Thomas (who even Frankie admitted married late in life) and that she was dead. We knew Phineas hypnotized Frankie to keep forgetting about her powers so I'm assuming Phineas hypnotized Ann as well and she doesn't remember Frankie. Horton for whatever reason took sole responsibility for this girl who was the daughter of his robot's ward Toro.

Either that or Toro fooled around on Ann and Phineas ended up raising Toro's bastard daughter. But I lean more towards Ann even though it makes less sense.


    Quote:
    So there was apparently a Torch in a grave and a Torch reformatted into the Vision. I liked the explanation that was given that Ultron built the Vision from spare parts left over from the Torch being built. That made sense.


I did too. I did not like Vision being Jim.


    Quote:
    Then came Avengers Forever were Immortus is again used....and he temporally split Torch into two Torches, one becomes the Vision one remains the Torch thus the initial origin story of Vision is preserved.


yeah I hated that revelation. I could have lived with Vision being the Torch or not being the Torch. But this way of keeping both ideas was really crappy. Now neither of them is particularly unique.


    Quote:
    What a Gordian knot the Torch has become.






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Reverend Meteor


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    Quote:
    Assuming that's the case - and I had never heard of this but maybe it was emphasized after Roy Thomas left the book - then the crystal is a part of the Vision's body. Every portion of the Vision's body from head to toe was built by Ultron. The crystal is no different. We humans have components in our brains that modulate our personality and voice. The Vision does too, apparently.


I think it goes against the spirit of the character but yeah he's technically correct. I had to look it up but Vision's emotional growth had been stunted by a control crystal Ultron implanted in him as revealed in Avengers #254.

Also according to Avengers #135 Ultron had Phineas remake the human torch into Vision because he wasn't having any luck with Jim's systems. So "every portion" isn't correct. Even with the Avengers Forever retcon I think we're still at Phineas did most of the work.



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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      He removed it after he tried to make himself like the ISAAC computer on Titan and take over all the computers of Earth



    Quote:
    This was self-immolation. It would be like you or me removing parts of our cerebrums or cerebellums. He amputated a part of himself to accomplish some objective. Who wrote this? John Byrne?

More like removing a foreign object. That was the awesome Roger Stern era Avengers.


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Iron Man Unit 007


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Yes as it stands it looks like despite avengers forever that Horton was still forced to reformat torch into vision


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Iron Man Unit 007


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Wasn't Byrne I think it was stern
The crystal was damaged and malfunctioning so he finally yanked it out

Then came the 12 issue vision Scarlet witch series



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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I think it goes against the spirit of the character but yeah he's technically correct. I had to look it up but Vision's emotional growth had been stunted by a control crystal Ultron implanted in him as revealed in Avengers #254.



    Quote:
    Also according to Avengers #135 Ultron had Phineas remake the human torch into Vision because he wasn't having any luck with Jim's systems. So "every portion" isn't correct. Even with the Avengers Forever retcon I think we're still at Phineas did most of the work.


Or we reject absolutely everything about the origin that wasn't written by Roy Thomas. Which, frankly, is what I do in my head. There simply was no reason for any of this. The Vision was not a broken character. These writers did not improve him.








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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    Wasn't Byrne I think it was stern
    The crystal was damaged and malfunctioning so he finally yanked it out



    Quote:
    Then came the 12 issue vision Scarlet witch series


And people wonder why I'm not in love with Stern-rhymes-with-Byrne.

Yeah, I'm looking at you, Juggernaut, who apparently pretended to be beaten by Spider-Man dumping cement on you. Another great Stern achievement.

It is my strong opinion that Roy Thomas somehow made enemies in the coffee clutch that is Marvel and they sabotaged his greatest contribution to the Marvel mythos because they could.







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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    More like removing a foreign object. That was the awesome Roger Stern era Avengers.


Bah. A great big Victor Von Doom "Bah!"

Someone could remove your eye very easily. Does that make it a foreign object? Roger Stern might say so, I guess.

Bah.







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Reverend Meteor


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    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think it goes against the spirit of the character but yeah he's technically correct. I had to look it up but Vision's emotional growth had been stunted by a control crystal Ultron implanted in him as revealed in Avengers #254.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Also according to Avengers #135 Ultron had Phineas remake the human torch into Vision because he wasn't having any luck with Jim's systems. So "every portion" isn't correct. Even with the Avengers Forever retcon I think we're still at Phineas did most of the work.



    Quote:
    Or we reject absolutely everything about the origin that wasn't written by Roy Thomas. Which, frankly, is what I do in my head. There simply was no reason for any of this. The Vision was not a broken character. These writers did not improve him.


Well as a Roy Thomas fan and a non-Englehart fan I can't fault your decision. Connecting Vision to Jim robs Vision of his majesty. And ruins Jim by not making Jim Jim anymore.




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Reverend Meteor


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    Quote:

      Quote:
      More like removing a foreign object. That was the awesome Roger Stern era Avengers.



    Quote:
    Bah. A great big Victor Von Doom "Bah!"



    Quote:
    Someone could remove your eye very easily. Does that make it a foreign object? Roger Stern might say so, I guess.


I don't think that's fair to say.

Stern already had the Englehart retcon of Vision being the Human Torch to work with but this was before the Byrne retconning of that retcon.

So at that point time I think it would safe to say Phineas Horton did most of the reformatting of Human Torch into Vision as stated in Avengers #135 but one of Ultron's contribution was this control chip...which was neither a part of Jim when Phineas originally created him or when Phineas reformatted him into the Vision per Ultron's threats. I would say the control chip was something Phineas wouldn't have created and it just wasn't his tech.

And it is logical that Ultron did have a control device installed in Vision per Avengers #66 when Ultron controls Vision to steal the adamantium.


Vision is a heavily retconned character (just like his ex wife) so you have to take into account where he was at retcon wise when you analyze his history \:\)



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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I don't think that's fair to say.



    Quote:
    Stern already had the Englehart retcon of Vision being the Human Torch to work with but this was before the Byrne retconning of that retcon.


So now I hate Steve Englehart's role in this too!


    Quote:
    So at that point time I think it would safe to say Phineas Horton did most of the reformatting of Human Torch into Vision as stated in Avengers #135 but one of Ultron's contribution was this control chip...which was neither a part of Jim when Phineas originally created him or when Phineas reformatted him into the Vision per Ultron's threats. I would say the control chip was something Phineas wouldn't have created and it just wasn't his tech.


I give up. The level of retcons here in impenetrable. And none of it was necessary. Not one bit of it.

Englehart - Stern - Byrne - Roy Thomas's character didn't need your help.






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Iron Man Unit 007


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As I recall all we knew of Vision at that point was he was apparently built and unleashed by Ultron. Engleheart gave us the supposed origin of Vision being a reformatted Torch.

I say supposed in that we now know differently.

Now that the time it was a nice, neat wrap to the Android Torch and since Marvel had for the most part killed or retired its Golden Age WW2 characters and they had a Torch with Johnny Storm, well I doubt Stan Lee gave it much consideration and just said "Go ahead"

Yet still why would Immortus, Guardian of Time be so keen on letting Vision see his origin and then officiate the wedding of Vision/Wanda and as I recall Mantis/Swordsman at the same time? Immortus was once Kang and while supposedly reformed, he does see a larger picture and surely has secret plans running in the back ground.

Then for years Wanda has a relatively happy life until Vision is abducted, taken apart and erased only to be rebuilt into a super powered form of DATA from TNG. I say that since Vision was now even more emotionless then when he first appeared and his skin was pale white like Data's.

Wanda then goes even more crazy when Simon refuses to give his brain patters again, not realizing the reason why nor giving him the chance to explain as she dropped a mountain on him.

She is then taken over by an ancient parasite, then becomes one of the brides of Set in Atlantis Attacks and then her kids are erased and revealed as parts of Mephisto. So yeah at this point her sanity goes the way of the do-do bird and now he is easily taken under control of Immortus for his own plans.

So basically for all that time, Vision was essentially a pawn albeit unknowingly of Immortus, and so was the Torch albeit in a smaller way. Immortus splits Torch into two and lets the original rest in a grave for years while the copy becomes the Vision.


As to that control crystal that Vision yanked out of himself, I am certain Ultron placed it there, as there is no such thing in Jim. As to why it took Vision so long to remove it, it was technically a part of him and I suspect there were some Ultron Imperatives prevent him until his expanded mindset at the end of that story overcame them, plus at that point it was malfunctioning so logic would dictate he remove the faulty part. At that point his voice became more human and his personality also came fully online.


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The Black Guardian

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The Control Crystal was not part of him though. It was something working against the body that it did not need. It was like a brain tumour.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    As I recall all we knew of Vision at that point was he was apparently built and unleashed by Ultron. Engleheart gave us the supposed origin of Vision being a reformatted Torch.


We didn't need to know that. Ultron made him. Who cares what he made him out of? What was Ultron made of? Oh I know - one of the Red Skull's Sleeper robots! How did we survive all this time without that information? Easy - we survived because we don't need to know.


    Quote:
    I say supposed in that we now know differently.



    Quote:
    Now that the time it was a nice, neat wrap to the Android Torch and since Marvel had for the most part killed or retired its Golden Age WW2 characters and they had a Torch with Johnny Storm, well I doubt Stan Lee gave it much consideration and just said "Go ahead"


Yes, but if Roy Thomas had wanted to do that, he would have. He's the most likely person ever to have thought of that. He's a Golden Age fan.

What galls me here is that no one at Marvel cared about respecting Roy Thomas's greatest character. It's like it was personal and vindictive. And has continued to this day to be personal and vindictive.

Suppose I try to be generous and say Englehart/Stern/Byrne were trying to make the Vision more interesting. You don't do that by changing the character's origin. You do it by giving him more interesting rogues and putting him in the middle of more fascinating plots.

Oh wow! He was the Human Torch! Now we can give him Torch rogues and rekindle Torch plot lines! Did that happen? No.

Oh wow! He has Simon Williams's brain patterns! Now we can give him Simon Williams's rogues and rekindle Simon Williams's plot lines! Did that happen? No. We saw the Grim Reaper pop up but he was never perceived as a Vision rogue. He was a Wonder Man rogue.

The retcons had no purpose but to disrespect Roy Thomas and I guess to eliminate another character (The Human Torch) whom no one was thinking about any way.


    Quote:
    Yet still why would Immortus, Guardian of Time be so keen on letting Vision see his origin and then officiate the wedding of Vision/Wanda and as I recall Mantis/Swordsman at the same time? Immortus was once Kang and while supposedly reformed, he does see a larger picture and surely has secret plans running in the back ground.


That should have been obvious, yes. He's a bad guy.


    Quote:
    Then for years Wanda has a relatively happy life until Vision is abducted, taken apart and erased only to be rebuilt into a super powered form of DATA from TNG. I say that since Vision was now even more emotionless then when he first appeared and his skin was pale white like Data's.


Ugh.


    Quote:
    Wanda then goes even more crazy when Simon refuses to give his brain patters again, not realizing the reason why nor giving him the chance to explain as she dropped a mountain on him.


Because the underlying premise was that Simon William's brain patterns were the only things that made the Vision a sapient, conscientious, empathetic, and loving entity. We should remember, perhaps, that Simon has almost always been written as a vain and self-centered guy.


    Quote:
    She is then taken over by an ancient parasite, then becomes one of the brides of Set in Atlantis Attacks and then her kids are erased and revealed as parts of Mephisto. So yeah at this point her sanity goes the way of the do-do bird and now he is easily taken under control of Immortus for his own plans.



    Quote:
    So basically for all that time, Vision was essentially a pawn albeit unknowingly of Immortus, and so was the Torch albeit in a smaller way. Immortus splits Torch into two and lets the original rest in a grave for years while the copy becomes the Vision.



    Quote:

    As to that control crystal that Vision yanked out of himself, I am certain Ultron placed it there, as there is no such thing in Jim. As to why it took Vision so long to remove it, it was technically a part of him and I suspect there were some Ultron Imperatives prevent him until his expanded mindset at the end of that story overcame them, plus at that point it was malfunctioning so logic would dictate he remove the faulty part. At that point his voice became more human and his personality also came fully online.


In other words he became more like Simon Williams. (sigh)

Ugh.

Incidentally, the Golden Age Human Torch was a sapient, conscientious, empathetic, and loving character. He never had anyone's brain patterns inserted. If Marvel really wanted to handle the Torch and the Vision in conjunction with one another, all they had to say was, "The Vision was originally the Human Torch. He would be the Human Torch again (mentally and emotionally) if this gem were removed. So let's remove the gem and have the Torch persona emerge completely. Wanda this may be jarring for you and the Vision but we think you both can handle it. The Vision has expressed a deep desire to have this done."

See? Why do we need Simon Williams?

Ugh.

The only character who gained anything by all this was WONDER MAN. He must have been somebody's pet character.










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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,594




    Quote:
    As I recall all we knew of Vision at that point was he was apparently built and unleashed by Ultron. Engleheart gave us the supposed origin of Vision being a reformatted Torch.



    Quote:
    I say supposed in that we now know differently.



    Quote:
    Now that the time it was a nice, neat wrap to the Android Torch and since Marvel had for the most part killed or retired its Golden Age WW2 characters and they had a Torch with Johnny Storm, well I doubt Stan Lee gave it much consideration and just said "Go ahead"



    Quote:
    Yet still why would Immortus, Guardian of Time be so keen on letting Vision see his origin and then officiate the wedding of Vision/Wanda and as I recall Mantis/Swordsman at the same time? Immortus was once Kang and while supposedly reformed, he does see a larger picture and surely has secret plans running in the back ground.


I remember Stern made Immortus seem like this nice guy. But all I could remember was that he almost certainly raped Marcus Immortus's biological mother (a shipwreck victim) with his creepy seduction machines like Marcus did Carol.


    Quote:
    Then for years Wanda has a relatively happy life until Vision is abducted, taken apart and erased only to be rebuilt into a super powered form of DATA from TNG. I say that since Vision was now even more emotionless then when he first appeared and his skin was pale white like Data's.


I would agree with this. He was making him Data.




    Quote:
    Wanda then goes even more crazy when Simon refuses to give his brain patters again, not realizing the reason why nor giving him the chance to explain as she dropped a mountain on him.



    Quote:
    She is then taken over by an ancient parasite, then becomes one of the brides of Set in Atlantis Attacks and then her kids are erased and revealed as parts of Mephisto. So yeah at this point her sanity goes the way of the do-do bird and now he is easily taken under control of Immortus for his own plans.



    Quote:
    So basically for all that time, Vision was essentially a pawn albeit unknowingly of Immortus, and so was the Torch albeit in a smaller way. Immortus splits Torch into two and lets the original rest in a grave for years while the copy becomes the Vision.



    Quote:

    As to that control crystal that Vision yanked out of himself, I am certain Ultron placed it there, as there is no such thing in Jim. As to why it took Vision so long to remove it, it was technically a part of him and I suspect there were some Ultron Imperatives prevent him until his expanded mindset at the end of that story overcame them, plus at that point it was malfunctioning so logic would dictate he remove the faulty part. At that point his voice became more human and his personality also came fully online.


I think the story tells us that Vision was able to yank it out because his consciousness expanded by being connected to ISAAC. He was able to expand his mind at that point and he mentioned his emotions expanded as well.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,594



    Quote:
    It is my strong opinion that Roy Thomas somehow made enemies in the coffee clutch that is Marvel and they sabotaged his greatest contribution to the Marvel mythos because they could.


No. But I think Byrne must have had some deep rooted hatred for Steve Englehart. What he was doing was targeting Vision and Wanda and their twins as a family. That love story was an Englehart thing IMO. Byrne took perverse glee in dismantling the family. But I also think he like myself just simply did not like the Vision being Jim angle.





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