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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 906


I'm really not sure if Johns will go that route. But the more I think about it, the more I see how the door is *really* open because:

-Doomsday Clock is purportedly addressing ALL DC comics history from 1938 on.

-Superman (and his confrontation w/Manhattan) is the centerpiece of the whole shebang. Not to mention Luthor seems like a major player based on the covers for issue #2.

-Watchmen happened in 1986 at the same time as COIE and the reboot of Superman and the DCU. A pivotal junction in continuity and tone.

-It has *always* been an unanswered question of what happened to E1 Superman from the end of COIE to the reboot. Did he become the post-crisis Superman? Did he just vanish? He certainly did NOT die! He existed after the Crisis! Even the imaginary WHTTMOT happened POST-CRISIS!

-Dday Clock is about bringing back the optimism of the pre-Watchmen/86 time; which again leads to the pre-Crisis Superman.

-For all these reasons, it would be so easy to delve into why/how Superman lost/forget so much of his history, why he become so much less powerful, and why he became prone to continuity reboots.


Regardless all this, I still think it is possible that it WON'T be addressed. DC has gone to *great* pains to act like the Silver/Bronze age never happened for Superman. Further, Johns had a very clear opportunity to address this back in Infinite Crisis. But nothing!

I *really* hopes Johns doesn't ignore it this time. Because if it's not addressed here, it NEVER will be!


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omike015 

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    Quote:
    -It has *always* been an unanswered question of what happened to E1 Superman from the end of COIE to the reboot.

It has not "*always*" been unanswered.


    Quote:
    Did he become the post-crisis Superman? Did he just vanish? He certainly did NOT die!

As originally explained, the pre-Crisis Earths (and their occupants) were merged into one Earth. Characters who existed on multiple Earths and did not meet some other fate were assimilated into one being. Given that the Earth-Two Superman and Lois were among those who escaped that fate, I think that leads to confusion for people.




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,750



nt





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Daveym 

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    Quote:

    Regardless all this, I still think it is possible that it WON'T be addressed. DC has gone to *great* pains to act like the Silver/Bronze age never happened for Superman. Further, Johns had a very clear opportunity to address this back in Infinite Crisis. But nothing!


It is easy to call Geoff Johns on a seeming antipathy to the Superman of the Pre-1986 era, I confess to being not being won over by his work of the character regardless of that argument, and yet... is it strictly true that he has an antipathy? I would say to you no. Consider that he took the opportunity of Infinite Crisis to reformat the backstory of the character to restore Kal-el/Superboy and his Legion career, it was he who reset Clark Kent back to being the bumbling mild-mannered news reporter. It was he who restored the Daily Planet dynamic to more resemble the classic Pre-Crisis era with Steve Lombard reintroduced as sports jock and Prankster. In fact it is fair to say that the Clark kent and Superman we have today is based on his work in that 2006 revamp, and if you read Action Comics, why just last week you still see strong traces of the Johns treatment and its harking back to the old supposedly jettisoned elements of the Pre-Crisis.

I understand the fondness for the Pre-Crisis era of Superman all too well, in some ways that's my default Superman, but as I've pointed out before even if the Crisis had never happened Superman today would never be the same book, or setting, that we were reading in the late seventies and early eighties.
It would have evolved. Changed, both the emphasis of the series and the characters... because look back on the immense changes in the industry in the late eighties and through the 1990s and it is almost inconceivable that the character and his setting could have carried on exactly as was - an unchanging landscape frozen in another time. \(coffee\)








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Daveym 

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I think the confusion may also stem in no small part from Geoff Johns himself, who suggested/stated in print on at least two occasions (In Infinite Crisis and the subsequent JSA annual) that the earth we left the the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths was a completely seperate earth to the one that came with 1986's relaunched DC Universe.
Nevertheless that's his view (if he hasn't changed his mind!), at the time he was positing that idea Dan Jurgens was writing and drawing an Official 'History of the DC Universe' for the 2006's 'Fifty-Two' weekly series... wherein he follows the orthodox consensus of the merged earths legacy, so if nothing else we cn be sure that Dan Jurgens at least follows the idea that the Superman he's been working with these last thirty years is, roughly speaking, the modernised version of the Pre-Crisis Man of Tomorrow, who according to Jurgens' own script is a blend of the merger of Earth-1 and Earth-2.




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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 906



    Quote:
    It is easy to call Geoff Johns on a seeming antipathy to the Superman of the Pre-1986 era,


I don't think Johns has antipathy toward it himself; I think DC Comics has long had ambivalence about it and preferred to act gloss over it and almost act like it didn't happen; or at worst totally mis-characterize it.

If anything, it's just an inability to understand it. Even Waid, who does understand it, couldn't (or wasn't allowed) to properly translate it in Birthright; which ultimately was a weak-tea Byrne/TV show Smallville hybrid. It couldn't turn the corner and bring the character back to something primal and pure.



    Quote:
    but as I've pointed out before even if the Crisis had never happened Superman today would never be the same book, or setting, that we were reading in the late seventies and early eighties.


Well, of course. No book is the same going over a long enough time span.

So yes, if Crisis/Reboot didn't happen then Superman books would still have changed over time obviously.

The questions is HOW they would have changed. I believe that if Byrne did his stories without his total reboot things would be different. It was Byrne's reboot of the origin/character that changed some FUNDAMENTAL THINGS BIG TIME!

But if that reboot didn't happen, I believe the character as we know him from Pre-Crisis would have remained more in tact; without all the "farmboy" and "clark is who I am" stuff becoming front and center; among several other things. Further, it could have prevented such a divided fanbase.

Batman changed after Crisis/Miller, but his fanbase was never divided because his pre-crisis history was held in tact. It was very much and very clearly the "same guy." With Superman, it wasn't clear at all.

Also, w/Batman they made him TOUGHER and the REAL GUY so his fans naturally could get behind that. W/Superman, they made him WEAKER and just COSTUME in various ways and some fans were never totally comfortable w/it.

I remember one early post-Crisis letter writer describing it as Rambo-izing Batman and Donahue-izing Superman; to use the 80s jargon of the time.

Batman got the better deal, IMO.


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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 906




    Quote:
    As originally explained, the pre-Crisis Earths (and their occupants) were merged into one Earth. Characters who existed on multiple Earths and did not meet some other fate were assimilated into one being. Given that the Earth-Two Superman and Lois were among those who escaped that fate, I think that leads to confusion for people.


Right, at the end of the COIE a completely intact Pre-Crisis Superman was merged onto the one Earth. Same past, same memories. He was unchanged.

Then MOS comes and it's a very new history and very new characterization.

NO EXPLANATION FOR THIS EVER!




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Daveym 

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    Quote:
    The questions is HOW they would have changed. I believe that if Byrne did his stories without his total reboot things would be different. It was Byrne's reboot of the origin/character that changed some FUNDAMENTAL THINGS BIG TIME!



    Quote:
    But if that reboot didn't happen, I believe the character as we know him from Pre-Crisis would have remained more in tact; without all the "farmboy" and "clark is who I am" stuff becoming front and center; among several other things. Further, it could have prevented such a divided fanbase.


We aren't all that far apart on our view that something of the mythical nature of the character and canon was lost with the reboot in 1986, and I do feel some of that essence has begun to return within the last decade, possibly thanks to a return to the more traditional interpretation of Clark kent, which helps to restore the sharp dividing line between the two individual and distinct personas of Kent and Superman. But preferences aside I all the same accept and respect that in 1985 change and updating was needed, and not just for Superman - The Flash, and particularly Wonder Woman, were in a far far worse shape by that point in time.

But in all frankness John Byrne's contribution to the reboot was that HE was chosen, it could have been someone else, Alan Moore for one was a name in the running. It is also fairly well known that around the same time Cary Bates had submitted his own proposal for revamping the character and reducing his powerlevel, Marv Wolfman had undertaken his own attempt just two to three years earlier to modernise the character, and if his own word is to be believed even if John Byrne had not been ordered to do a complete restart of the character in the wake of the Crisis, he would still have completely revamped him from where he was set at the time:


    Quote:
    JB, I can't find it anywhere but I believe you've told us before. Care to refresh our memory as to what your original in-continuity proposal for Superman was, before the reboot was proposed?

    John Byrne 2014 - "It was fairly simple. A cataclysm occurs which sends Superman on a quest to set things right. In the end, it requires him to start over from square one."


    Quote:
    John Byrne 2016 - "MAN OF STEEL was totally unnecessary. When I accepted the assignment, I expected to spend six months or a year doing stories that would guide Superman back to where I thought he should be. It was the Powers That Were at DC that insisted on a 'reboot'."


Reflect on those times (1985/6) and virtually no mainstream title or character at DC or Marvel was being treated the same way they had been just five-to-ten years ago - the zeitgeist was changing rapidly, getting darker and more sophisticated than the childrens audience comics traditionally aimed for. The Incredible Hulk had seen the demise of the classic childlike Hulk with issue 271 in 1982, The Mighty Thor had seen Walt Simonson arrive a year later, Iron Man went through a major shift that saw a radically new look emerge by issue #200, Daredevil had Frank Miller, The X-Men went from bright superhero costumes to a more streetlevel sensibility.
At DC the murder of the Reverse-Flash took The Flash into a direction no other comics character had experienced not on this scale. The classic Justice League was disbanded and replaced by a completely new line-up of largely younger characters based in Detroit. Green Lantern had been replaced by John Stewart. Alan Moore had arrived on Swamp Thing, and then the Crisis....

No. Considering all of the changes the superhero genre was going through and the shift in audience preferences DC was always going to have to do something quite radical by 1985. At the time Superman was in quite a reasonable position, I certainly still enjoyed the main titles (particularly when not weighed down with obvious fill-in material), but look to the terminal condition of Wonder Woman and The Flash at that time and much like Batman Superman was being drawn into a position where major major attention was going to have to be given to rethinking the books and characters, just as Julius Schwartz last did over a decade earlier a programme undertaken to get the audience to pay attention to these characters again. We saw a game effort from Marv Wolfman and Gil Kane in 1983 towards this end, but as with the Roy Thomas/Gene Colan Wonder Woman a more forceful commitment from DC was needed if that attempt was going to succeed and act as the catalyst for true change. Which is almost certainly why the nuclear option of Crisis on Infinite Earths was eventually dictated - to ensure a real change DID happen. And that this time it would have to be adapted to.





"Rrribbit!".
(But was Anyone talking about Superman by 1985...?)







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Daveym 

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It was explained, right back to Action Comics #590 where John Byrne shows us the remaining earths merging into one, up to Dan jurgens' own recapping a few years ago and showing the main ingredients to be Earth's 1 & 2... Earth-2's sensibilities in particular being something very obvious to see in the remodelled post -1986 Superman landscape.




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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 906



    Quote:

    It was explained, right back to Action Comics #590 where John Byrne shows us the remaining earths merging into one, up to Dan jurgens' own recapping a few years ago and showing the main ingredients to be Earth's 1 & 2... Earth-2's sensibilities in particular being something very obvious to see in the remodelled post -1986 Superman landscape.


At the end of COIE, the surviving characters of various Earths populated the last remaining Earth (E1, I believe).

There was no indication that ANY of the survivors had their history or memories re-written. No indication that ANY had forgotten about the Crisis except at the very end when Pirate non-sensically says that no one remembers the COIE or the multiple earths.

Therefore, we are left with the whereabouts of E2 Superman in his paradise dimension and E1 Superman one of the survivors on the lone single earth.

Then one day Byrne's reboot hits. No explanation as to how/why this happened! None! Is this the E1 Superman rebooted? If so, then how? And why *just* him when other characers, such as Batman, retained bronze age history and memories?

Or was E1 Superman simply "vanished" somewhere and the post-crisis guy a new and distinct guy?

The point is, the post-crisis establishment made it clear the silver/bronze age of Superman "never happened."

Lots of unanswered questions here about the whereabouts of E1 Superman that are unique to him! Other characters retained their histories and memories!




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Daveym 

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    Quote:

      Quote:

      It was explained, right back to Action Comics #590 where John Byrne shows us the remaining earths merging into one, up to Dan jurgens' own recapping a few years ago and showing the main ingredients to be Earth's 1 & 2... Earth-2's sensibilities in particular being something very obvious to see in the remodelled post -1986 Superman landscape.



    Quote:
    At the end of COIE, the surviving characters of various Earths populated the last remaining Earth (E1, I believe).



    Quote:
    There was no indication that ANY of the survivors had their history or memories re-written. No indication that ANY had forgotten about the Crisis except at the very end when Pirate non-sensically says that no one remembers the COIE or the multiple earths.



    Quote:
    Therefore, we are left with the whereabouts of E2 Superman in his paradise dimension and E1 Superman one of the survivors on the lone single earth.



    Quote:
    Then one day Byrne's reboot hits. No explanation as to how/why this happened! None! Is this the E1 Superman rebooted? If so, then how? And why *just* him when other characers, such as Batman, retained bronze age history and memories?


It wasn't the most perfect of change-overs no, but if you were there for the final issues of All-Star Squadron and concurrent Infinity Inc issues circa issue #27, and the final chapter of Kurt Busiek's Legend of Wonder Woman series, you see full well what happened. Having been held back a short while in the wake of the Crisis' conclusion by a combination of factors a final wave of energy washes over reality and the memory and histories of Earth's 1 & 2 are merged into one, with a new revised history to match, and no one (apart from a very select few like Harbinger, Shazam, Darkseid, The Guardians, and Psycho-Pirate) has memory of what the Crisis had fully been about anymore as to them the Multiverse had never existed. All there was was one Universe, and one revised history.

See Here for a synopsis of the relevant All-Star Squadron issue...






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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,099



    Quote:
    Which is almost certainly why the nuclear option of Crisis on Infinite Earths was eventually dictated - to ensure a real change DID happen. And that this time it would have to be adapted to.


The need for change is definitely a driving force behind the nuclear option; however, with Superman, there was in no small part the desire to shed his weighty history and continuity. Superman not being Superboy, having no Kryptonian connections, no Krypto, no Supergirl, meant for a much, much easier lift. . .and most writers, editors, creators, etc. agreed that Superman was not an easy character to approach.

The trouble with the nuclear option? You can only do it once, which is while it was successful, it was a device that could not be used with efficacy more than once. QED the repeated attempts at trying to reboot Superman that could never equal what was done in 1986, just as Superman vs Doomsday was also a watershed and singular moment.

The big difference in Marvel's approach was that they didn't burn down the barn to build it up. Bruce Banner was in control of the Hulk, Jim Rhodes became Iron Man, Spider-Man changed his outfit, which was alive, unbeknownst to him. Beta Ray Bill showed he was also worthy, and Ragnarok brought the "death of Odin". None of these storylines closed off the history of the character. Instead of burning down the house, Marvel made additions which could be accessed, or not, in the future. Superman was placed on a path that could only lead to one outcome, and when change was needed once more, they couldn't execute it. They still cannot execute it.

Imagine a writer who is actually interested in Superman's Kryptonian heritage if only for the technology. The amount of stories that could be mined, and so easily. Instead, the Fortress of Solitude is a shinier version of the Batcave, and the advanced science of Krypton seems staid. There is no need to imagine of such advancements, because Superman has little connection to it. Adventures in space or other dimensions are limited, as Dc wants Superman to be grounded, even if he runs aground in doing so. Instead of compelling villains, we're given shock value situations with Jor-El, Superboy Prime, and Lex Luthor wanting to be a hero. Much was gained by the reboot, but even more was forgotten, and done so purposefully.

Again, change was needed, and change will be continually needed, but I do hope DC has learned its lesson with going nuclear after 2011. I would like to see DC tap writers for Superman who have BIG ideas, and no fear of the character. . .but also have an understanding of him as well. There is no need of desconstruction, or shock value. It goes to what Elliot S! Maggin has said about Superman: "You've all the power in the world. Now, what do you do with it?"




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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Daveym 

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Those are all very good points, and I agree with them fully for the most part. We're at a curious point in Superman mythology where after various (discarded) revamps the character is straddling a line between the pre-1986 era and the post-1986 landscape; there is a good deal of circumstantial evidence that he could traverse into deep space again for example, but no writer/editor wants to admit to or develop that possibility. Instead he is limited to earth in the same way he was post-1986. There is a clear evidence of his ability to build complex technology (The Phantom Zone projector), but no writer or editor wants to develop this latent gift for scientific/engineering genius. Perhaps worst of all as you say is the Fortress of Solitude, once a second home, a visual marvel filled with wonders, now diminished to a shapeless ill-defined bolthole lost in the artic wastes. These three points are what help to seperate the Superman before 1986 from the one that came after, and yet despite a shift back to the traditional props of the Pre-Crisis none of them seem to be being fully embraced and exploited. It does feel an odd situation...

One thing that strikes me about the current "Jor-el survived" plot is that by having Jor the scientist about to tread the earth, and quite possibly be more powerful/able than Superman himself, there is unintentionally the return of the Pre-Crisis Superman. The scientist Superman. Or rather the ingenious Superman. The one who would use his powers in imaginative and novel ways, or fall back on his huge well of scientific know-how to help resolve a particular problem.
I have respect for both these era's of Supermen, but at this point in time I do share in your view that it is past time that these limitations placed on the character thirty years ago were confronted and a meeting point between the treatments found. To his credit Dan Jurgens seemed to acknowledge the problems in holding on to the 1986 treatment early in his current run on Action Comics, the final battle against Doomsday being a case in point, then there was the implied fact that General Zod and family actually flew to another distant world shortly after... and yet the character and his capabilities are doggedly still being adhered to in the very same way as the post-Crisis Man of Steel.

I do suspect the simple truth of the matter is that that is all writers today know however... no one knows how to write a Superman who is very clever, very able, and very much aware of out there.




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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 906


1) Is post-crisis Superman a transformed pre-crisis Superman?

2) If so, how?

3) If not, what happened/where is pre-crisis Superman?

4) Did any silver/bronze age Superman story take place or was it all erased?

5) If it's all erased, then why did post-Crisis Superman have pre-Crisis memories of the justice league, the titans, the COIE, etc?



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Daveym 

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    Quote:
    1) Is post-crisis Superman a transformed pre-crisis Superman?



    Quote:
    2) If so, how?

Broadly speaking Yes, I explained up above. But cast your mind back to the 1986-88 years, we saw at the end of the Crisis that the remaining earth's were Earth's 1 & 2, Earth-Shazam, Earth-Charlton, and Earth-x. And out of those earth's we know only 1 & 2 had a Superman, hence the revised Superman being a merged result of the histories of Earth's 1&2 and presumably influences of the other earths. This new earth is largely a consolidation of the histories of those five earths, we see the duly revised Captain Atom and Blue Beetle for example, we gradually meet the revised Captain Marvel family, and the Justice Society, Freedom Fighters, All-Star Squadron, and Infinity Inc are all also folded into this new timeline. There is new stuff obviously, but the gist was that the new Superman and friends were a reworked version of the Earth-1 set up... with influences of the early chapters of Earth-2 Superman being especially evident to see in the early life of the modern Clark Kent and Superman.


    Quote:
    3) If not, what happened/where is pre-crisis Superman?



    Quote:
    4) Did any silver/bronze age Superman story take place or was it all erased?

As with Batman's past adventures large swathes were either erased or rewritten. We saw however in Action Comics #650 that a good deal of the early Justice League adventures remained intact for Superman, the Year One annuals and subsequent Fourth World stories reaffirmed that the Jack kirby stories in 'Jimmy Olsen' still happened, there was Walt Simonson's retelling of the famous 'Sandman' Kryptonite No More' storyline in 1992, and come 2008 Geoff Johns essentially rewrites the post-crisis Superman as being partly the result of The Time Trapper stepping in in the wake of the Crisis to erase Superman's career as Superboy... which makes some sense, as if John Byrne had had second thoughts in 1986 and kept the Superboy years then by virtue his adult 'Superman' would be somewhat different. For instance when we see the world-travelling Clark kent save the Space plane and soon after become Superman he is aged 25. By the time Superman #1 comes along he is aged 28. Just Three years in service therefore, which makes for a very narrow window in which to establish himself as Superman before the 'classic' rogues gallery is (re)introduced - enter Metallo, Prankster, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, etc etc. Presumably then a Superboy career would have moved his debut back to the traditional age 20 or thereabouts. In theory at least.
As it was we had a modernday retelling of the Earth-2 farmboy's eventual debut as an adult Superman - he never was Superboy


    Quote:
    5) If it's all erased, then why did post-Crisis Superman have pre-Crisis memories of the justice league, the titans, the COIE, etc?

In the rewritten history the Anti-Monitor still attacked the universe, but only the Universe, as there were no alternate earths anymore in this new reality. And this then is the version that Superman and other heroes remember.






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thuggernaut


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    Broadly speaking Yes, I explained up above. But cast your mind back to the 1986-88 years, we saw at the end of the Crisis that the remaining earth's were Earth's 1 & 2, Earth-Shazam, Earth-Charlton, and Earth-x. And out of those earth's we know only 1 & 2 had a Superman, hence the revised Superman being a merged result of the histories of Earth's 1&2


Why would you possibly assume this? The revised/post-crisis Superman is most certainly NOT the E2 Superman who went to the paradise dimension w/his history and memories.

It's questionable if he is the anything of the pre-Crisis Superman because they have radically different memories and pasts. It would make sense if it was the E1 Superman who was revised; but this was not shown or made explicit at all. Indeed, at the end of COIE, we are left w/E1 Superman left intact *as* the E1 Superman.

I'm not talking influences; I'm talking in-continuity reasoning.

Look, I (kinda) get what you're saying, but I'm not convinced we (or DC) believe that post-Crisis Superman is E1 SUperman in any shape or form. Therefore, it begs the question (for me, anyway). . what the hell happened to the Man of Tomorrow?




    Quote:
    As with Batman's past adventures large swathes were either erased or rewritten.


No, Batman's bronze age history (and memories of it) remained very much in tact (except of course his Worlds Finest adventures w/pre-Crisis Superman).





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Ancient One

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    Quote:
    Why would you possibly assume this? The revised/post-crisis Superman is most certainly NOT the E2 Superman who went to the paradise dimension w/his history and memories.



    Quote:
    It's questionable if he is the anything of the pre-Crisis Superman because they have radically different memories and pasts. It would make sense if it was the E1 Superman who was revised; but this was not shown or made explicit at all. Indeed, at the end of COIE, we are left w/E1 Superman left intact *as* the E1 Superman.



    Quote:
    I'm not talking influences; I'm talking in-continuity reasoning.



    Quote:
    Look, I (kinda) get what you're saying, but I'm not convinced we (or DC) believe that post-Crisis Superman is E1 SUperman in any shape or form. Therefore, it begs the question (for me, anyway). . what the hell happened to the Man of Tomorrow?


First off, a quick ground rule: I'm only talking about the DCU in the immediate aftermath of Crisis. I'm not really up to speed with what's going on in the current Superman books and honestly, it simply doesn't interest me. Modern DC creators seem to have little respect for their history and heritage, so why should I care about what they're doing? So, with that in mind...

The mistake is in thinking it's Superman that's changed. And it's a mistake because that's far too small.

It's the entire universe that's changed.

Talking about the Earth-1 Superman after the Crisis is inappropriate because there never WAS an Earth-1. The 'new' universe is the only one that ever existed, a universe that has aspects that we (as outside observers) can trace back to five different pre-crisis universes.

The Earth-2 Superman and Lois Lane (and the Earth-Prime Superboy) were taken out of spacetime altogether by Alex Luthor, but their HISTORIES weren't. That's important, because it's these histories that are folded into the single universe.

So the history of the Superman of the single universe is an amalgam of the histories of both the Earth-1 and 2 Supermen. Both of those heroes are in a sense still there in the person of the single universe Superman.



    Quote:
    No, Batman's bronze age history (and memories of it) remained very much in tact (except of course his Worlds Finest adventures w/pre-Crisis Superman).



The changes to Batman's history are subtler, but still there. But that's because the Batmen of Earths 1 and 2 were very similar characters with very similar histories, whereas the two Supermen had more marked differences.

Beyond the World's Finest stories, the single universe Batman wasn't a founding member of the JLA and didn't take part in any of their earliest adventures. Some of his own stories never happened, or happened differently. The histories of Robin, and Jim and Barbara (Batgirl) Gordon were - again subtly - different. His career as Batman started about 10 years later. He never had a Batmobile that looked like and early 1960's roadster. His memories of and interaction with the JSA were different. And so on...



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Daveym 

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      Broadly speaking Yes, I explained up above. But cast your mind back to the 1986-88 years, we saw at the end of the Crisis that the remaining earth's were Earth's 1 & 2, Earth-Shazam, Earth-Charlton, and Earth-x. And out of those earth's we know only 1 & 2 had a Superman, hence the revised Superman being a merged result of the histories of Earth's 1&2



    Quote:
    Why would you possibly assume this? The revised/post-crisis Superman is most certainly NOT the E2 Superman who went to the paradise dimension w/his history and memories.

I'm not assuming anything. All the in-continuity evidence and the official stance of DC themselves over the years since is posted up above.
Yes the Earth-2 Superman went off into limbo, the earth he lived on and his place in it was then folded into the new earth - or to put it another way, at the grand age of 70+(?) he may have physically left through a magic door to elsewhere, but his life and the world he lived on were still part of the history of Earth-2 in just the same way that the deceased Earth-1 Wonder Woman's life was still history on Earth-1. The earth's merged together and a final wave of revision from the battle with the Anti-Monitor at the dawn of time washes over and restarts everything with a new consolidated history. Both Earth 1&2 Supermen as we knew them technically ceased to exist at this point as reality had reconfigured itself to make a new whole. If there's any question to be had then I would say that it is how Wonder Woman is alive and an element in the new matrix...? But then again in the new timeline she debuts well after Superman, Batman, Flash etc in Legends. Given thought though Crisis #12 ammended her 'death' to make clear she had been devolved back into clay on the shores of Paradise Island and therefore she presumably slipped through into the new unified Universe in the same way Chemo was said to have done in Action Comics #590. Fate certainly smiled upon her.

Accept the official line and move on.


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      Quote:
      As with Batman's past adventures large swathes were either erased or rewritten.



    Quote:
    No, Batman's bronze age history (and memories of it) remained very much in tact (except of course his Worlds Finest adventures w/pre-Crisis Superman).


You assume. Batman's history was left somewhat flexible after the Crisis true, but as with Superman if you take the timeframe of Man of Steel, and Batman's own words in issue #3 when they first meet, then it has been eight months since Superman arrived in Metropolis and Lois Lane named him. We know that He hasn't been operating all that long in Gotham either. From the dating set in Man of Steel #1 Clark Kent is aged 25 when he becomes Superman, Three years have passed by the time Man of Steel ends and segues straight into Superman #1, where we know Superman is aged 28. So by this Batman has about three years in which to adventure between setting up in Gotham, and when we arrive in the modernday. Just like Superman has three years in which to adventure before we arrive with him in the modernday... we just assume it was longer than that due to the vagueness by which it was handled subsequently, which is what made that establishing era such a neat narrative sleight-of-hand.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,461


I wish that Mr Oz would have been revealed as the E1 PC Superman, trying to bring back intact his PC DCU!

According to DC, this new reboot Superman is still the PC version now in the new continuity time line, correct?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,461


The nearly all powerful Superman, with a defined moral code and compass though would seem to be the center the new DCU could really use in their rebirth!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,461


It should have been PC Supes as Oz, not Jor el...


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,461


The 1986 Supes was E1 PC Superman reborn so to spewack from earths merging, and the resulting new DCU would not support PC power levels anymore, as the reality had been changed.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,461


Ues, and sinced COIE was averted, this rebirth Superman should still be the OC Version, but now folded into the current time line continuity!


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