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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


As he had in HIs PC days?

I would, as long as he could go forward into the Legion time when need be, and as long as it was established just like in Dr Who, he cannoiyt affect established historical events!


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,682



nt





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 38,175



I don't feel he needs to regain time-travel no, but at this point in his history I do feel the time is past when he should be able to travel into deep space when needs be and under his own power - not necessarily to cross the universe - rather just to be able to at least get across the galaxy at least... I feel you could restore some of his onetime space-travel capacity without sacrificing the ethics built up over the last three decades. All they have to do is say he is limited, by basic physical laws, to travel within the galaxy and/or nearby space sectors that contains the earth's solar system, or somesuch.
In doing this they can allow for some leeway for science-fiction story opportunities offworld while retaining his relative limitations when the next major 'Imperiex' or Cosmic disaster sails onto the DC universe horizon...

But it's definitely time for fresher story opportunities.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


Even during the time right before the Rebirth saga though, Kal was shown to be able to fly at least faster than light, and during the OWAW, he flew many times faster than that while in deep space!

During that time, it seemed like all space trsvel restrictions had been eliminate don him, no longer was limited as the John B version one was...




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


Why not, as he had that power before, and used it at times to great effect!


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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 38,175



I've pointed before that there is a problem that has developed with the character and his positioning, by both creators and editors, since the 'Rebirth' relaunch. It lies partly with both the attitudes and creators we have currently being rigidly ingrained with the thinking and ethic of the post-crisis landscape of the DC Universe, with its reduced levels of power and aptitude for their frontline heroes, and additionally lies with the move to marry that post-crisis with the better aspects of the pre-crisis.
With Superman we see an uncomfortable attempt to balance these aspects - he is presented as scientifically gifted, yet seldom exploits this intelligence. We see hints (as with General Zod and his family) that he may well be capable of interplanetary flight under his own power, yet it is yet to be confirmed as a fact, much less exploited. Much of his earlier years and life in Smallville are yet vague, some elements have suggested he was never Superboy for example, but what is fact?

And yet perhaps the simple truth to the vagueness of his ability for deep space travel under his own power lies in the simple fact that the publisher is forcing him to adhere to strict newtonian physics. Hence even if he, or Green Lantern for that matter, is capable of flight at speeds of 25 times lightspeed... that is still a speed which is insignificant on the galactic scale.
The reason Superman needs Green Lantern to open a pathway to OA just this week isn't necessarily that he couldn't get there under his own power, rather that it would take far far too long for him to do so!

This obstacle called physics is not a new problem. Even in the bronze-age there was a noticeable shift in how Superman's trips into deep space were undertaken, as more and more the depictions would make the point that to do so he would either detect a convenient spacewarp, or use hyperspace, as under his own power the journey would take far far too long. If indeed it was possible at all... so in a sense the differential between the Superman of then, and the Superman of Now, is that today's Superman has no such convenient cosmic gateways by which he can access. Not under his own power and initiative.

But as I say some middle-ground could surely be found, one that would satisfy and balance the need for character limitations, and the requirements for a wider range of storytelling options to be made more readily available. As here in 2017 it s becoming more and more the case that Superman as a character, and pre-eminent SuperHero, is all too often an awfully limited and constrained figure for what he is. \(coffee\)















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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


I would like DC to just give to us the Superman who can travel FTL while in outer space, and have it explained that he can do those things due to the fact that he can somehow manipulate energy /matter without being aware of it, in order to obtain "earp speed"

They have shon him able to conatin a minature black hole, and lift planets still, so why not be able to also now do that?


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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040


Aside of personal preference, I haven't read any reason that show any detriment to Superman being able to travel through time. Other characters have the ability to travel through time, and it isn't an issue, why does Superman need to be kept from the power of time travel, when it would allow for more avenues of storytelling?

The last good Superman time travel story I read was "Time and Time Again". Superman traveled through time, and there weren't any ill effects to the story, the character, or the reader.

Let Superman be super.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


I just do mot gey this compliant of him being too powerful, like Thor and Silver Surfer aren't?


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JS


Member Since: Thu Oct 29, 2009
Posts: 218


The problem is, unrestricted time travel is a major story-breaker power. How do you create challenges for a hero who can just undo all his mistakes, rewind time every time things don't go his way, and retry things over and over unlimited times until he gets everything right? Even the Flash doesn't do that ever since Flashpoint.

In the Silver Age, this wasn't a problem since Superman explicitly couldn't change the past, so time travel was only useful for gathering intel. Nowadays, people even change the past without going back in time.



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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040



    Quote:
    The problem is, unrestricted time travel is a major story-breaker power. How do you create challenges for a hero who can just undo all his mistakes, rewind time every time things don't go his way, and retry things over and over unlimited times until he gets everything right? Even the Flash doesn't do that ever since Flashpoint.


Yet, we still have heroes and villains who can travel through time and affect it. The problem is in the storytelling, not the power. One thing I would not is that no one can just undo mistakes; that is one of the bigger lessons of time travel


    Quote:
    In the Silver Age, this wasn't a problem since Superman explicitly couldn't change the past, so time travel was only useful for gathering intel. Nowadays, people even change the past without going back in time.


Still, not a reason to leave off from time travel. You're focusing on all the possible negatives. Why not have a go at the positives?





R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040


It's exclusively a Superman fan/reader issue. Some fear the Silver Age like Batman fans used to fear the 1966 show. They believe that somehow, if Superman is allow to really flex his muscles, it will spell doom as opposed to being entertaining. It's doesn't make much sense at the end of the day, but eventually Superman will get back and lads will realize there was nothing to worry about.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040



    Quote:

    I don't feel he needs to regain time-travel no, but at this point in his history I do feel the time is past when he should be able to travel into deep space when needs be and under his own power - not necessarily to cross the universe - rather just to be able to at least across the galaxy at least... I feel you could restore some of his onetime space-travel capacity without sacrificing the ethics built up over the last three decades. All they have to do is say he is limited, by basic physical laws, to travel within the galaxy and/or nearby space sectors that contains the earth's solar system, or somesuch.
    In doing this they can allow for some leeway for science-fiction story opportunities offworld while retaining his relative limitations when the next major 'Imeriex' or Cosmic disaster sails onto the DC universe horizon...


That's interesting. I am positive that if you were given Superman, with the ability to travel through time, and you were mandated to use this ability, you could turn out a top story without slating the ability or the character.


    Quote:
    But it's definitely time for fresher story opportunities.


Oh yes. Agreed.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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JS


Member Since: Thu Oct 29, 2009
Posts: 218


Time travel stories can be interesting and fun, certainly. But it's got to be handled well, otherwise the story logic can easily fall apart.



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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 38,175




    Quote:

      Quote:

      I don't feel he needs to regain time-travel no, but at this point in his history I do feel the time is past when he should be able to travel into deep space when needs be and under his own power - not necessarily to cross the universe - rather just to be able to at least across the galaxy at least... I feel you could restore some of his onetime space-travel capacity without sacrificing the ethics built up over the last three decades. All they have to do is say he is limited, by basic physical laws, to travel within the galaxy and/or nearby space sectors that contains the earth's solar system, or somesuch.
      In doing this they can allow for some leeway for science-fiction story opportunities offworld while retaining his relative limitations when the next major 'Imeriex' or Cosmic disaster sails onto the DC universe horizon...



    Quote:
    That's interesting. I am positive that if you were given Superman, with the ability to travel through time, and you were mandated to use this ability, you could turn out a top story without slating the ability or the character.


I cut my comics superhero teeth in the mid to late Bronze-age era, where the fantastical was mandatory in storytelling, and a sense of wonder at entering the worlds of Superman and the Fantastic Four was a matter of course. Put aside The Mighty Thor and a look at superhero comics over the last three decades shows that those past requirements - a sense of wonder and the everyday fantastical - are qualities that have been largely relegated from modern storytelling.
The first Superman comic I discovered new on the shelves was Superman #382 - Lois Lane:Witch of Metropolis, before that it had all been books to be found, and exchanged, in used booktraders, and market stalls. It never occurred to me that there were new and up-to-date fresh books to be had...
The point is that Superman #382 is, in its basic elements, a bog-standard Superman tale of the era. All of the elements used within are familiar to Superman books of that era. What the writer and artist make of those familiar tropes and props though is a story that doesn't feel at all stale or familiar, it works. The plot is moving around the fact that a mishap while time-travelling has resulted in Superboy's mind now inhabiting his adult self, while the adult self is locked into the past in Superboy's body back in Smallville. It's not the first time this lot had been used, a similar device was seen back in Action Comics #466. But both these stories explore Superman as a character, while also fuelling the imagination as the reader wonders at how this is all going to be resolved. It's a story that uses the time-travel concept in a roundabout way, it's a mechanism for a story idea to be explored, not a magic wand plot point.

I was brought up on all this stuff, and those stories, to me, still hold up and still entertain. But then to me those worlds - Superman and the Fantastic Four - were all about imagination and escapism. It's a style of presentation and content that modern books now have an inbuilt recoil against. It's no coincidence I feel that the Fantastic Four slowly ebbed away into irrelevance over the last two to three decades, and while Superman generally fared better the books today show the strain to me as while the main title characters remain as compelling as ever the style and content feel... lacking. Superman has the feel being needlessly stuck in a perpetual state of fourth gear, when he is so easily capable of being engaged in first gear and aiming for his potential as a storytelling force.

I associate Superman with imagination, a sense of wonder, just as I associate the Fantastic Four with imagination and a sense of wonder.

Modern superhero comics though are geared to neither, the will isn't there to even aim for it....

...The Mighty Thor being all too often the honourable exception!




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,682




    Quote:
    Aside of personal preference, I haven't read any reason that show any detriment to Superman being able to travel through time. Other characters have the ability to travel through time, and it isn't an issue, why does Superman need to be kept from the power of time travel, when it would allow for more avenues of storytelling?


JS answered this very nicely. \:\)


    Quote:
    The last good Superman time travel story I read was "Time and Time Again". Superman traveled through time, and there weren't any ill effects to the story, the character, or the reader.


Ah, but Superman didn't time travel under his own power in that storyline, nor could he control where he went when it happened.


    Quote:
    Let Superman be super.


He can be "Super" just fine without it and has done just fine for decades without being able to time travel. I'm fine if Superman uses the Cosmic Treadmill once in a blue moon, but never under his own power.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,682



Do you know why we don't have the Pre-Crisis Superman anymore? He was boring. DC realized this so rebooted the entire DC universe and de-powered him. After 30+ years, he would have been back by now and he hasn't because DC knows a hero that can blow out an entire solar system with a sneeze doesn't work anymore and never will again.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040



    Quote:

    Do you know why we don't have the Pre-Crisis Superman anymore? He was boring. DC realized this so rebooted the entire DC universe and de-powered him.


This is overwhelmingly false. I've had the chance to speak with writers like Elliot S! Maggin to confirm it. DC had their reasons for changing Superman, but it sure as heck wasn't because he was "boring". That and Superman was depowered before. The Bronze Age Superman wasn't as powerful as the Silver Age Superman by far, as he was lessened in power in the "Sandman Saga". It's the hackneyed strawman argument with Superman, that somehow more power makes him boring, when it's poor storytelling that's responsible for that result.


    Quote:
    After 30+ years, he would have been back by now and he hasn't because DC knows a hero that can blow out an entire solar system with a sneeze doesn't work anymore and never will again.


Always the extremes. . .and the notion is incorrect. We've seen the post-Crisis Superman push a universe single-handed, and there was no uproar. Why some Superman readers are so needlessly rigid, I just don't know.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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omike015 

Mod of Steel

Location: The Bottle City of Kandor
Member Since: Sun Oct 10, 1999
Posts: 4,372



    Quote:
    The problem is, unrestricted time travel is a major story-breaker power. How do you create challenges for a hero who can just undo all his mistakes, rewind time every time things don't go his way, and retry things over and over unlimited times until he gets everything right? Even the Flash doesn't do that ever since Flashpoint.



    Quote:
    In the Silver Age, this wasn't a problem since Superman explicitly couldn't change the past, so time travel was only useful for gathering intel. Nowadays, people even change the past without going back in time.

You just answered your own question.






omike015
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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040


Excellent. I wish I could have stated my position as you have just done, in my response to others here on the board. Thanks for this.




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,682




    Quote:
    This is overwhelmingly false. I've had the chance to speak with writers like Elliot S! Maggin to confirm it. DC had their reasons for changing Superman, but it sure as heck wasn't because he was "boring". That and Superman was depowered before. The Bronze Age Superman wasn't as powerful as the Silver Age Superman by far, as he was lessened in power in the "Sandman Saga". It's the hackneyed strawman argument with Superman, that somehow more power makes him boring, when it's poor storytelling that's responsible for that result.


Which is too often the case because most writers don't know how to write a hero that has no limits. No challenge. Some writers are even on record stating Superman is too boring BECAUSE he's too powerful. So, maybe, just maybe, there's more to my side of the argument than there is yours since I have actual evidence to support it.


    Quote:
    Always the extremes. . .and the notion is incorrect. We've seen the post-Crisis Superman push a universe single-handed, and there was no uproar. Why some Superman readers are so needlessly rigid, I just don't know.


Pushed a universe single handed? That never happened and trust me, I'd know. And the reason some of us are "rigid" is because there are numerous problems with writing Superman who has no limits. Okay, so, he lifted a planet in one issue then struggles with an aircraft carrier the next. Blame different writers if you wish, but sometimes, the same writer is responsible for the inconsistency. And I've noticed a trend when it comes to Superman. The more powerful he is, the more inconsistent his power level. And then we reach the point of just how utterly absurd it is to be able to move a planet. Why does Superman need to be so strong? What's the point? Did you know he'd wipe out of every life on Earth if he did that? Just the kinetic energy from a thrown punch alone would be enough to wipe out an entire city, even if Superman held back. So forget about him fighting super villains in downtown Metropolis. You can hire all the great writers in the world but you can never erase how absurd a planet pushing Superman actually is. But instead of acknowledging it, the comic writers ignore it and that makes it worse, not better. Ignoring a problem only makes it bigger.

Superman doesn't need to be time traveler, he can use a device for that. He doesn't need to be a planet pusher either, it's too absurd.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,040



    Quote:
    Which is too often the case because most writers don't know how to write a hero that has no limits. No challenge. Some writers are even on record stating Superman is too boring BECAUSE he's too powerful. So, maybe, just maybe, there's more to my side of the argument than there is yours since I have actual evidence to support it.


I don't see how there's more to your argument. If a writer says Superman is boring or difficult, he shouldn't be writing him and stick to someone in his range of skill and talent. It doesn't reflect on the character, but the writer. You, yourself, state that writers don't know how to write characters with "no limits", which is a reflection on them, not the characters. If you agree with them, that's one thing, but that doesn't make them, or you, correct in your stance.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Always the extremes. . .and the notion is incorrect. We've seen the post-Crisis Superman push a universe single-handed, and there was no uproar. Why some Superman readers are so needlessly rigid, I just don't know.



    Quote:
    Pushed a universe single handed? That never happened and trust me, I'd know.


Oh yes, it did. And it was awesome.


    Quote:
    And the reason some of us are "rigid" is because there are numerous problems with writing Superman who has no limits.


The only problem is a lack of imagination and staid readers that encourage it.


    Quote:
    Okay, so, he lifted a planet in one issue then struggles with an aircraft carrier the next. Blame different writers if you wish, but sometimes, the same writer is responsible for the inconsistency. And I've noticed a trend when it comes to Superman. The more powerful he is, the more inconsistent his power level. And then we reach the point of just how utterly absurd it is to be able to move a planet. Why does Superman need to be so strong? What's the point? Did you know he'd wipe out of every life on Earth if he did that? Just the kinetic energy from a thrown punch alone would be enough to wipe out an entire city, even if Superman held back. So forget about him fighting super villains in downtown Metropolis. You can hire all the great writers in the world but you can never erase how absurd a planet pushing Superman actually is. But instead of acknowledging it, the comic writers ignore it and that makes it worse, not better. Ignoring a problem only makes it bigger.


What you're on about here can be applied to any character with any level of ability. You're aggrandizing it because you want Superman at a level of ability that you're comfortable with, which is fine, but that doesn't make your position sound.


    Quote:
    Superman doesn't need to be time traveler, he can use a device for that. He doesn't need to be a planet pusher either, it's too absurd.


Which is your opinion, and one in the minority, and when Superman does such things as push a planet, the outcry is from those who don't want or like it, not because the story was poor. Superman using a device to time travel is somehow better than him having the ability? Semantics. You just don't want or like him having the ability.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


Well, post Crisis Kal held a black hole in his palm, with GL help moved the earth, flew Ftl, so he already is getting closer to PC days, so why not just complete the transistion back now?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,778


Superman even in his peak Silver Age levels, still had villains to challenge him, and His Green K and Magic weaknesses were very real to him...

Why not have it sameway today?


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dblackstar2002


Member Since: Mon Dec 11, 2017
Posts: 34


Along with super intelligence, super speed rivaling but not quite as fast as the flash and dam near planet pushing strength! They have watered Superman down so much, He is just another hero! When you have fans complaining about how he handled the rest of the Justice League in the movie, You know you have gone too far! Superman was always supposed to be the most physically powerful being on earth! He looses something when you screw with his power levels!!!!!


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