The Thor Message Board >> View Thread

Author
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723


This is me playing devil's advocate, but is something I was looking for some other posters thoughts on.

Reading up on some films that postulate the idea that some groups of people (or a species in general) are so vile or hostile that mercy, understanding, and forgiveness are no longer sufficient/only enabling bad behavior by taking advantage of such traits and the only solution is the complete or near-complete destruction of said society or species. Basically, the universe would be better off without the entire group and letting them continue to live causing pointless suffering. This group only takes advantage of kindness, mercy and forgiveness without ever changing.

This is kind of common in sci-fi and fantasy. Orks, demons and Dalkes are some of the more famous examples.

My question, would the Nine Realms be better off if the Dark Elves and Fire Demons were rendered extinct?

Consider the following:

- Both groups have terrorized the Nine Realms since time immemorial by launching wars of aggression again and again.
- Both have shown absolutely no morals or limitations in the atrocities they are willing to commit.
- Both are dedicated not just to conquest, but outright extermination of other races for no reason other than they are not either Dark Elves or Fire Demons.
- Both races have a reputation for their murderous nature surpassing the other races.
- The other races, save perhaps the Giants, have not been shown near as aggressive or savage.
- Beating them back to their home realms time and again have done nothing to change their attitudes.

- The Fire Demon home realms is so inhospitable to non-native lifeforms that any sort of occupation is pretty much impossible.

- The Dark Elf culture is built on treachery and violence. Even the nicer ones of them are war-mongerers.

- The Dark Elves willingly made their leader a madman who committed genocide against his own people and whose track record would mean war and atrocities against the other realms. They supported him even after Thor had an opportunity to stop him. That makes many of these Dark Elves accomplices in Makelith's crimes.

- According to some modern morality, any sort of occumpation or conquest of the Dark elf and fire demons realms to forcible change their cutlure is wrong.

Taking all of this into consideration (and anything I may have missed) what is the solution to the Dark Elves and Fire Demons? Is it a case where the Nine Realms would be better off without them? At what point is enough enough with the the horrors these races cause and the other realms put an end to it one way or another?


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
skrayper


Member Since: Mon Jul 24, 2017
Posts: 11


Writing an entire race or culture as "evil" is inherently lazy story writing. All groups, all people, have good and bad within them. I was never a fan of D&D writing the entire Drow race, for example, as "evil" - logically, such a society would have a very difficult time existing over an extended period of time.

So, my question is - are you advocating for a genocide of these races, where heroic characters go around and murder Dark Elf and Fire giant children for the "greater good"? Or are you advocating for the writers to create some kind of natural disaster that leads to them being wiped out?

No offense, but I have no interest in seeing Thor cave in the skull of an infant with Mjolnir because it MIGHT grow up into something evil.


Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
ThorTheMightiestAvenger


Member Since: Wed Mar 30, 2016
Posts: 342









FOR ASGARD!!!
Posted with Apple iPad 603.2.4
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723


I have not read Civil War II. But from what I have read about it is Ulysses visions were highly flawed. A person with no history of violence of any kind could be pictured murdering someone for no other reason than the thought was thought hard enough in a passing moment.

The Dark Elves and Fire Demons have a well-established history of genocidal wars against other races for apparently no other reason than they want to do it. And they do it again and again and again.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723


Should Batman kill the Joker?

The argument goes that the Joker is an unrepentant mass murderer with a lengthy documented history of violence. He laughs in Batman's face that he is only going to escape again and commit more crimes. Batman knows in all likelihood Joker will escape Arkham Aslyum again to hurt more people. The corrupt Gotham justice system has failed to deal with him. Based on the Joker's pattern of behavior, the city would be safer if he were dead. Since Batman wants to keep the citizens of Gotham safe shouldn't he either kill the Joker or at least let him die when someone else shoots him instead of saving him?

The Doctor (from Doctor Who) knows the Daleks are a race designed in both nature and nurture to have a xenophobic hatred for every other non-Dalek race and desire to destroy them. Over millions of years, they have exterminated whole galaxies. The Time Lord High Council once sent The Doctor on a mission to prevent their creation, in violation of their non-interference policy, citing the threat the Daleks pose. Yet The Doctor refused to carry out his mission and constantly looks for a "good Dalek" only to be forced to kill large groups of them time and again and witness the horrors they inflict throughout time. The only known "good Daleks" were either brain damaged or specifically created to be more free thinking and went through experiences that would be very difficult to replicate.

Wouldn't the universe be better off without the Daleks? What price is the possibility of one "good" Dalek worth in blood other races pay? The Doctor also spares reoccurring enemies like Davors and The Master only to watch them abuse his mercy by repeating they crimes. At times, he even regrets his mercy seeing the harm it does others. And ironically, for a pacifist The Doctor has rendered a number of races extinct.

Marvel's Odin- The dragon Fafnir was once king of the land of Nastrond. Odin destroyed the land and all of its inhabitants for its wickedness.

In fact, this is a kind of common trait in mythology. The gods getting tired of a land's evil and wiping it out to start over.

Future Old Thor from the Gorr time line once boasted of rendering the Frost Giants extinct though he did not disclose the circumstances.

Thor: The Dark World - Bork nearly exterminated the Dark Elves (admittedly with some help from Malekith himself) and Odin did not consider it a bad thing considering the threat the Dark Elves posed and that it brought about thousands of years of peace. Thor and friends never really comment on it and when they finish off the Dark Elves are not broken up about it.


The Dark Elves and Fire Demons have a long history of wars of aggression against the other races of the Nine Realms. The Dark Elves willingly made Malektih, a known madman their king despite being presented with a another option. Waziria chose to take his place. The Fire Demons have time and again tried to burn the other realms. The Queen of Cinders and her army are gleeful about it.

Defeating the Dark Elves and Fire demons has not brought about any lasting peace. And both come across as far more dangerous than trolls or frost giants.

War Thor had an opportunity to trike a major blow against Malekith war effort by laying waste to Muspelphim only to be stopped by Jane-Thor. Currently, their is no large resistance to the Dark Council. Asgard is neutral. Alfheim already fell and the dwarves were not far behind. Jane-Thor and Odinson have been sidetracked by their own problems. War Thor was the only one that came across as making any progress.

Given what is known, what is the solution? Should War Thor have been allowed to strike that blow against all of Muspelheim? What is the price in Light Elf, dwarf, and Aesir blood? Could a lasting peace be established if Thor summoned a flood upon upon the Dark Elves and Fire Demons? What if Malekith and the Queen of Cinders started trying to use children has civilian shields or send them out to fight like Hitler did during World War II?

Again, I am playing Devil's Advocate and looking only at extreme cases. But it appears both races are for one reason or another so hostile that they start these horrible wars for no reason other than they want to compared to Light Elvs, Dwarfs and gods that mostly get along. The intelligence of the Dark Elves and Fire Demons makes them more dangerous then giants or trolls.

Is there a limit how how much mercy and tolerance should be shown them when their species choose to engage in their behavior time and again? Is there a solution? What if they are inherently that prone to violence?

These are the questions I am trying to look at.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
jazzbass6


Member Since: Tue Sep 30, 2014
Posts: 378



    Quote:
    Writing an entire race or culture as "evil" is inherently lazy story writing. All groups, all people, have good and bad within them. I was never a fan of D&D writing the entire Drow race, for example, as "evil" - logically, such a society would have a very difficult time existing over an extended period of time.


The WHOLE Drow society is based on "survival of the fittest" as per Lloth's tenants. So yes, a society can be inherently evil in this regard due to their culture with the outliers such as Drizzt and Zaknafein.


Posted with Google Chrome 61.0.3163.91 on Windows 10
skrayper


Member Since: Mon Jul 24, 2017
Posts: 11


First, I'll answer this:

"Should Batman kill the Joker?"

The Joker isn't "potentially" evil - he has committed evil acts that warrant justice be delivered for the victims.

The Daleks have been shown to be evil, but also have the occasional one who isn't. That said, Doctor Who is a VERY different story than a superhero one. Yes, I think it's silly when he was upset at his doppleganger when he blew up the Daleks who were about to wipe out all of existence. Daleks are just another example, however, of lazy writing.

Old School mythology isn't the same as Marvel's THOR - even Odin isn't the same as Thor. Odin's a douchebag. Thor's a hero.

You're asking a crap ton of questions, and my question in return is simply - is it something you want to READ? This is a comic book. Do you want to read about those kinds of events? Do you want to see Spider-Man running around, snapping children in half while the Hulk rips the arms off the elderly? Yeah, they might be evil - but it's not a good narrative.

The point is, a good writer would write stories that would make YOU, the reader, question the idea. If you consider it a good idea to wipe out a race, then that writer is not doing a good job. A better act would be to see Thor assisting a small but dedicated rebel group bent on overthrowing the Fire Giant Queen. That's a story worth reading. Not needs some killin'.


Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 170


But to answer your question...no. For every light there is darkness. For every good there is evil. Without evil, how can you define good? Without those races, it would be a very boring Asgard. And even if they can annihilate an entire race, no one has any moral ascendancy to do so. Isn't that what Loki tried to do in the first Thor movie (to annohilate the entire Jotunheim)? Didn't Thor rightfully defended the right to life, even those who are evil?


Posted with Google Chrome 59.0.3071.125 on Linux
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,100




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 170


I see trolls as being stronger than even the average strength of Asgardians. But they lose because Aagardian warriors are better fighters.

The same with Frost Giants. Their average warriors are far more powerful than the average Asgardians.

I doubt if an average dark elf's strength come close to an average Asgardian.


Posted with Google Chrome 59.0.3071.125 on Linux
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,100




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Marv


Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
Posts: 1,556


If I remember correctly, during the Reigning Ulik tells from the future that if Odin didn't just slaughter and invade all the realms, it was because he knew that each played a role in the tapestry. When Asgard was brought to Midgard and King Thor ignored his duties in Asgard, it left ALL the realms in disarray and brought destruction upon them all. In the same vein, as Asgard must exist to bring Life, Law and Honor to all the other realms, Svartalpheim and Muspelheim MUST exist to fulfil the cleansing role of Ragnarok, to bring space for the new growth afterwards.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11127/111276539/5561295-odinforce+life+force.png


Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723


Giants are strong...and that is about it.  Numerous stories have shown them to be kind of stupid: low-level of social organization, weak magic,  simplistic battles strategies and prone to random acts of violence.   Even their great king Laufey is little more than a brute.  Giants like Utgard-Loki are a rare exception.  Large groups may go on the rampage ever now and then, but to my knowledge they have never presented a threat to all life in the realms or try to exterminate it.  Most of the time Thor can handle them on his own.

Trolls are about the same except sometimes they have developed some advance technology. 

Both are dangerous and things one might wish to get rid of completely if your family was killed by them, but they are for the most part manageable. 

Now, compare that to Dark Elves and giants.

What the Dark Elves lack in strength they make up for in magic and intelligence.  They have intentionally tried to destroy all life in the realms several times.  Unlike giants or trolls they are actually intelligent enough to comprehend all they are doing...and they do it anyway.

Then you have Fire Demons.  They are unified, fanatical, powerful, and possess advanced technology.  Surtur is pretty much a complete immortal as powerful as Odin, and highly intelligent.  Surtur desires to set all life on fire and the fire demons are his army.   When active, the Fire Demons are probably the greatest threat in all the nine realms.


    Quote:
    And even if they can annihilate an entire race, no one has any moral ascendancy to do so. Isn't that what Loki tried to do in the first Thor movie (to annohilate the entire Jotunheim)? Didn't Thor rightfully defended the right to life, even those who are evil?


I would say there was a difference.  As Movie Odin pointed out, the Jotuns were contained to Jotunheim.  They were still living in the wreckage of the last war.  Thor on his own slew a great many of them.  There had been an uneasy peace for a thousand years.  They on their own did not strike me as a threat.  Only the greater trouble they could cause for an old and weak Odin.  So there was no need to destroy them.

For the Dark Elves and Fire Demons, two societies that are hellbent on destroying others with no regard to any rules of war and do not appear to be able to be contained....what is the price in Light Elf, Vanir, and Aesir blood it is worth especially if they insist on starting these wars time and time again when the other realms only want to live in peace without war?  

Surtur destroyed an entire GALAXY and who knows how many races.  He is more than willing to destroy the nine realms.  He only needs to succeed once now that the Ragnarok cycle is broken.  He is determined to do so.  What is the price of that threat hanging over the heads of the realms?

In the first Thor film yes Thor did stop Loki.   But against the more dangerous Dark Elves Bor was credited with their extinction.  Thor finished off the race.  I don't recall anybody being torn up over it.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723


Vampires are usually portrayed as a threat to humans because they murder them for blood and typically have no regard for human life. That is one reason Blade is a hero. Destroying all vampires is usually considered a good thing.

Dark Elves and Fire Demons have not been shown that different in the threat they pose and disregard for life.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723




    Quote:
    Daleks are just another example, however, of lazy writing.


I wouldn't always call it lazy writing. The show has gone out of its way to show Daleks why they are the way they are...and it makes sense.

I think it is more of a case of simplistic writing. Some forms of entertainment are to make you think. Others are for escapism. People want their heroes to be good and their villains to be evil without always getting bogged down in the moral quagmires that exist in real life. Other times it a limit of some sort on how much time you have to tell a story.]


    Quote:
    You're asking a crap ton of questions, and my question in return is simply - is it something you want to READ? This is a comic book. Do you want to read about those kinds of events? Do you want to see Spider-Man running around, snapping children in half while the Hulk rips the arms off the elderly? Yeah, they might be evil - but it's not a good narrative.


Do I want Spider-Man and other heroes running around like violent psychopaths ripping heads off? No, that is one reason I have not a fan of Garth Ennis. But I do think there is a place for stories that explore questions of violence and a more violent setting. Marvel's Thor is usually portrayed as a more straight-foward, clean-cut good guy. Writers tend to downplay his violent past, the beings he has killed, or the fact Mjolnir is meant to be a lethal weapon.

Jason Aaron opened the door to all of this when he started his long "War Is Hell" story. I figured a Thor comic discussion board would be a good place to discuss these questions he has raised. How does Thor balance his noble ideals and desire to protect against the harsh realities of war? Especially now that he does not have the armies of Asgard to rely upon? Is a more bloody War Thor necessary to win this conflict without dragging it out for years on in? It is worth it to deploy Ultimate Mjolnir as a WMD against the Dark Elves and Fire Demons to end toe war quickly and save as many Light Elves and Dwarves as possible? Especially since those two are the ones who started it, have their own people indoctrined, and hold to no rules of war? Is the idea of "honorable warfare" worth the cost in lives and blood of dragging it out?


    Quote:
    The point is, a good writer would write stories that would make YOU, the reader, question the idea. If you consider it a good idea to wipe out a race, then that writer is not doing a good job.


Then Jason Aaron is not doing a good job. He has spent several years showing the Dark Elves and Fire Demons as complete monsters that either willingly go along with this or are complicit with the war crimes of their leaders. He has shown both races to be not that different from the Daleks...a threat to all life that the universe would in all likelihood be better off without.

That said, I do think this is a story where the writer (Jason Aaron) Has been lazy. He keeps injecting modern ideas into an archaic high-fantasy story and just expects the reader to go along with it without bothering to fully explore it. Gods across the universe regardless of culture, skin tone, race, concept or creed are all jerks that mortals are better off without except he has never explored it from their point of view or addressed the MASSIVE elephant in the room that is Thor, or Hercules, or pre-character assassination Odin, or a number of other gods in general. He injects Democracy in the story to say it is better except does not bother to flesh it out so we don't know that the Congress of Worlds actually does. He injects modern feminism into a story only by derailing Odin, Thor and Asgardian culture in general. He builds up War Thor as the ultimate badass who is needed to end the war...only with no development at all claim he is some nutcase who is going to destroy the nine realms. And he keeps interrupting the flow of the story to highlight how great Jane is and how right she is at everything.

Worse, he has had time to address all of this. He only has chosen not to.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,100



    Quote:
    Vampires are usually portrayed as a threat to humans because they murder them for blood and typically have no regard for human life. That is one reason Blade is a hero. Destroying all vampires is usually considered a good thing.


In the comics, vampires are undead things without soul which shouldn't be around. Thus, even though nobody is aware of it, vampire hunters are actually performing a public service by sending them to their grave.

In the Blade movies, there was a secret war of the species with the vampires secretly trying to submit the humans and Blade was the daywalker stuck in the middle. The vampire hunters were some kind of secret group of resistants trying to stop the vampires from succeeding.


    Quote:

    Dark Elves and Fire Demons have not been shown that different in the threat they pose and disregard for life.


Dark Elves have a country, a civilization and a culture. They have women & children. Not all of them are warriors.
Obliterating them all would be the equivalent of a genocide and an atomic bombing.
Nothing suggests that they should deserve such a fate, even though they attacked Asgard multiple times.

I don't know if Fire Demons are supposed to be some kind of animals or if they could be considered intelligent people. Sometimes, I have the feeling that only Surtur has a mind & personality.
Just like Mephisto, Surtur might be nearly unkillable.
It is one thing to stop him from invading Asgard.
It is another to kill him on his own territory.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,077


Possibly, there are others though. One could argue they have more standard qualities. Like the Frost Giants are less destructive to the other realms than they are to Asgard. The fire side wants all to burn.

It gets on one of the issues as whose right it is to determine something like that. And even if one does can anything be done about it? In many settings for instance demons or devils are evil but are necessary and too powerful for mortals to do much with. And the supreme good forces (if they exist) are part of a cosmic balance.


    Quote:
    This is me playing devil's advocate, but is something I was looking for some other posters thoughts on.



    Quote:
    Reading up on some films that postulate the idea that some groups of people (or a species in general) are so vile or hostile that mercy, understanding, and forgiveness are no longer sufficient/only enabling bad behavior by taking advantage of such traits and the only solution is the complete or near-complete destruction of said society or species. Basically, the universe would be better off without the entire group and letting them continue to live causing pointless suffering. This group only takes advantage of kindness, mercy and forgiveness without ever changing.



    Quote:
    This is kind of common in sci-fi and fantasy. Orks, demons and Dalkes are some of the more famous examples.



    Quote:
    My question, would the Nine Realms be better off if the Dark Elves and Fire Demons were rendered extinct?



    Quote:
    Consider the following:



    Quote:
    - Both groups have terrorized the Nine Realms since time immemorial by launching wars of aggression again and again.
    - Both have shown absolutely no morals or limitations in the atrocities they are willing to commit.
    - Both are dedicated not just to conquest, but outright extermination of other races for no reason other than they are not either Dark Elves or Fire Demons.
    - Both races have a reputation for their murderous nature surpassing the other races.
    - The other races, save perhaps the Giants, have not been shown near as aggressive or savage.
    - Beating them back to their home realms time and again have done nothing to change their attitudes.



    Quote:
    - The Fire Demon home realms is so inhospitable to non-native lifeforms that any sort of occupation is pretty much impossible.



    Quote:
    - The Dark Elf culture is built on treachery and violence. Even the nicer ones of them are war-mongerers.



    Quote:
    - The Dark Elves willingly made their leader a madman who committed genocide against his own people and whose track record would mean war and atrocities against the other realms. They supported him even after Thor had an opportunity to stop him. That makes many of these Dark Elves accomplices in Makelith's crimes.



    Quote:
    - According to some modern morality, any sort of occumpation or conquest of the Dark elf and fire demons realms to forcible change their cutlure is wrong.


By some, not all. I am not sure it would be immoral. It sort of depends on what they are doing. It is not ok to force a person of a given culture to change who they are by force. It is ok to try and change them. As far as I can tell.

The issue here is not really so much culture but type. They are inherently one thing or another. A few odd balls may change but on the whole they are more akin to fire or season. They are what they are.


    Quote:
    Taking all of this into consideration (and anything I may have missed) what is the solution to the Dark Elves and Fire Demons? Is it a case where the Nine Realms would be better off without them? At what point is enough enough with the the horrors these races cause and the other realms put an end to it one way or another?


Maybe, but they likely do not have the tools to deal with it either. If they all joined up maybe but Surtur alone can beat any of them fairly quickly outside of Odin.






Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723




    Quote:
    Dark Elves have a country, a civilization and a culture. They have women & children. Not all of them are warriors.
    Obliterating them all would be the equivalent of a genocide and an atomic bombing.
    Nothing suggests that they should deserve such a fate, even though they attacked Asgard multiple times.


During World War 2, hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed due to Allied air bombing to destroy the Japanese ability to make war and demoralize the population. During the American Civil War, General Sherman embraced total war against the South on the grounds it would demoralize the Southern War effort and destroy their ability to make war. Both were done with the intent to end those wars as quickly as possible.

The Dark Elves have made Malekith their leader and have gone along with his war effort. I do not recall seeing any Dark Elves opposing it once Malekith became king. Even Wazira became complicit when she took Malekith's place in prison.

Complete extinction? That is probable overboard. But letting War Thor lay waste to their realm with Ultimate Mjolnir as a WMD? Given the circumstances it seems to be the only solution to end the war quickly. Malekith's strength grows, casualties mount, and the "good guys" have no other way known to stop him. Asgard remains neutral with no alternative leader to Cul unless Odin decides to intervene or they somehow convince Cul to take action. And would that really make things better?


    Quote:

    It is one thing to stop him from invading Asgard.
    It is another to kill him on his own territory.


In this case, why? Surtur has demonstrated an almost obsessive desire to cause Ragnarok or worse...something Odin has spent his life trying to prevent. He already destro7ed an entire galaxy and who knows how many races besides the Korbonites Beta Ray Bill belongs to. He is kind of like The Joker in you know throwing him in Arkham is only a temporary solution at best. The Museplhim armies support Surtur in his efforts. The army at least is so fanatical that they are eager to burn their own allies. Destroying them would make it much more difficult for Surtur to try and destroy everything.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723




    Quote:
    In many settings for instance demons or devils are evil but are necessary and too powerful for mortals to do much with. And the supreme good forces (if they exist) are part of a cosmic balance.


That has always kind of bothered me in those stories. On one hand, I get the reasons why. You need evil, pain, fear, adversity etc. for spiritual growth and to help define goodness and all that. On the other, it sort of implies a flaw in the system. The "better tomorrow" people dream of is impossible because evil is built into the system. There is always going to be some higher power screwing things up for mortals. In these cases, good is not a type of moderation between extremes, but itself an extreme that is just as bad if not worse than evil. In these settings evil cannot really be defeated, only checked in such a way so you learn to live with it.



    Quote:
    By some, not all. I am not sure it would be immoral. It sort of depends on what they are doing. It is not ok to force a person of a given culture to change who they are by force. It is ok to try and change them. As far as I can tell.


Treachery and violence appears to be a key part of Dark Elf culture judging by the current story. If they are not fighting each other they are fighting other races. Assuming, as sometimes happens in storiesthey kill anyone who tries to teach them other ways would it be right to conquer and change them by force?


    Quote:
    The issue here is not really so much culture but type. They are inherently one thing or another. A few odd balls may change but on the whole they are more akin to fire or season. They are what they are.


Would you please clarify? I am not sure what you are talking about.


    Quote:
    Maybe, but they likely do not have the tools to deal with it either. If they all joined up maybe but Surtur alone can beat any of them fairly quickly outside of Odin.



And assuming Odin was avaliable and willing to help?



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 170


Each one of whom are far more dangerous than all the dark elves and fire demons combined.

Sure, Galactus is not technically "evil" as he is just surviving by killing billions by consuming planets...but at the same time, he doesn't really care whether he destroys a race or not. He thinks everone is beneath his concern, and he will just consume an inhabited world over an uninhabited one if it meant that it will satisfy his hunger more. He is  an amoral being who devastates entire solar systems, galaxies, thousands or millions of worlds in his mad attempt to satiate his never ending hunger. And yet Reed Richards saved his life.

Celestials judge worlds whether they live or die. They experiment on countless races just because. They can wipe out worlds with a mere gesture. Should we exterminate all of them as well?

Thanos has actually killed half the population of the universe just to please his love Death. He continually aspire absolute power in order to...
Ummmm....i don't know his reasonings now...but it used to be to serve countless souls to his love Death...now, i reckon, just for abdolute power's sake. He should be put down like the dog he is.

Not all Elves are warriors. Not all of them kill. Killing is only justified for self-defense. If you exterminate an entire race for the actions of Malekith and his warriors, that is genocide. That's why Thor stopped Loki in the first movie. Not because of that truce between Asgard and Jotunheim. Killing an entire race is wrong.

As for the fire Demons, Surtur is the most dangerous by far, and is far more powerful than all the other fire demons combined....should we kill all pesky fire demons just because Surtur is a raging  multiversal arsonist? Odin could have killed Surtur, but always choose to imprison him...because killing one who is already down is murder, and wrong.



Posted with Google Chrome 59.0.3071.125 on Linux
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 170




Posted with Google Chrome 59.0.3071.125 on Linux
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723



    Quote:
    ivSure, Galactus is not technically "evil" as he is just surviving by killing billions by consuming planets...but at the same time, he doesn't really care whether he destroys a race or not. He thinks everone is beneath his concern, and he will just consume an inhabited world over an uninhabited one if it meant that it will satisfy his hunger more. He is  an amoral being who devastates entire solar systems, galaxies, thousands or millions of worlds in his mad attempt to satiate his never ending hunger. And yet Reed Richards saved his life.


Galactus is by all accounts a higher being who does what he does to survive.  He does not do it out of maliciousness like Malekith.   Galatctus has been known to even try to find ways to eliminate his hunger or tried to avoid colonized worlds, but it never works.  It has been stated and shown time and time again that for one reason or another the universe is better off with Galactus than killing him.  Not helping matters are mortals colonizing or destroying so many worlds.


    Quote:
    Celestials judge worlds whether they live or die. They experiment on countless races just because. They can wipe out worlds with a mere gesture. Should we exterminate all of them as well?


The Celestials are intended to be higher beings who function as a type of gods to the gods.  There experiments empowers mortal races giving them a better chance to survive in an extremely hostile universe.  Their judgement has never been made clear on what criteria they use.   Thor once tried to prevent the Celestials judgment of the planet Pangoria only for it to be revealed the Celestials only removed the evil elements and turned the planet itself into a paradise.   Overall, it has been suggessted the Celestial goals are benevolent and seek to encourage the evolution and development of life across the universe.

Last time I checked, Malakeith was neither a higher being, he did not do what he did out of survival nor are his intentions benevolent.


    Quote:
    Thanos has actually killed half the population of the universe just to please his love Death. He continually aspire absolute power in order to...
    just for abdolute power's sake. He should be put down like the dog he is.


I actually cannot see a reason why Thanos should be spared.  He is too powerful and intelligent to contain.  He seeks to destroy just because.  By the standards of his own kind he is an insane evil monster worse than the Celestials or Galactus.  He is the type monster Thor should hunt down and destroy.


    Quote:
    Not all Elves are warriors. Not all of them kill. Killing is only justified for self-defense. If you exterminate an entire race for the actions of Malekith and his warriors, that is genocide. That's why Thor stopped Loki in the first movie. Not because of that truce between Asgard and Jotunheim. Killing an entire race is wrong.


What if you stop short of wiping out the whole race and only destroying enough to destroy their will and ability to make war?  That is the problem War Thor faces.  War Thor has no vast army to fight and occupy the enemy country.  It is pretty much him with the WMD that is Ultimate Mjolnir.  Aside from him there are only a couple of other Thors who have their own issues and the small League of Realms.

Is it better to draw the war out in a years long struggle letting more light elves and dwarves be killed instead of ending it quickly in a couple of decisive blows?   What if the the Thors are captured or killed?  There goes most of the good guys war effort.


    Quote:
    As for the fire Demons, Surtur is the most dangerous by far, and is far more powerful than all the other fire demons combined....should we kill all pesky fire demons just because Surtur is a raging  multiversal arsonist? Odin could have killed Surtur, but always choose to imprison him...because killing one who is already down is murder, and wrong.


The Fire Demons have shown themselves complicit in his wars and an eagerness to burn everyone including their own allies.  About the only saving grace is however they or their society is built they require a strong leader before they act. 

As for Surtur, I was under the impression that one reason Odin imprisoned Surtur is Surtur is pretty much completely immortal or at the very least shown an uncanny ability to cheat death.  Imprisoning him is a way to keep an eye on him.  Otherwise, I could see Asgard executing Surtur since it still has the death penalty. 




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,100



    Quote:
    Complete extinction? That is probable overboard.


Indeed. It was your question. The answer is only my point of view.


    Quote:
    In this case, why?

because Surtur is too powerful on his own territory (probably as powerful as Odin on Asgard).
Each time, he was believed to be destroyed, he came back as if nothing happened. The Asgardians never defeated him on his own territory and, obviously, they are afraid of him and his twilight sword.


    Quote:
    During World War 2, hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed due to Allied air bombing to destroy the Japanese ability to make war and demoralize the population. During the American Civil War, General Sherman embraced total war against the South on the grounds it would demoralize the Southern War effort and destroy their ability to make war. Both were done with the intent to end those wars as quickly as possible.

I am sorry and I hope that you won't take it the wrong way but I prefer not to comment that further on the Thor board. From previous experience on the comicboards, it always leads to sensitive & problematic topics (history, personal philosophy, politics , ...) too far away from the entertainment of the comics themselves.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 170


...whether Galactus is malicious or merely indifferent, his actions result in  the extinguishment of billions and billions of lives. Do you think those who will die when their world is about to be consumed care whether Galactus is really evil or not? No. Of course they don't. And that is the crux of your point..."whether it would be better to exterminate the dark elves and the fire demons because they kill". The ones who are affected are the denizens of the other 7 realms of the 9 realms. So, you know, essentially just 7 planets. Galactus destroys millions and  millions of planets. Should the planets that are about to be destroyed just let Galactus consume them because he somehow serves a cosmic purpose in the universe? If they have the opportunity to kill Galactus before he comes to their planet, shouldn't they destroy him? That is essentially the same as your proposition in exterminating the entire race of dark elves and fire demons. It means little that Galactus is somehow some innocent victim of a cosmic joke.

And about Galactus being innocent...not really. Some writer may have written that he somehow wants to cure himself of his hunger...but most writers write him as indifferent, and totally without concern whether he consumes an inhabited world or not. Most writers depict Galactus not caring whether he kills billions. Sure, he doesn't have any ill-will against those he will consume (unlike the fire demons and dark elves)...but that's because Galactus thinks that they are beneath him. Would you have any malice in exterminating termites? No. Of course not. That's how Galactus is to his victims. He is not inherently "evil", since he doesn't have any malice, but only because he thinks very little of those he will consume.

But there are also other writers who depicts Galactus as being vengeful, like recently, Galactus went to future Earth to consume the one planet who denied him for several times. King Thor offered to find another world for him to consume, but Galactus wanted the earth particularly, because he was vengeful.

About the Celestials having some sort of benevolent motive...sure, in "Alone Against the Celestials", maybe....but all the other depictions of the Celestials are unconcerned about good or evil. Their ultimate goal is not known. Writers make it up as they go along, and with what works for their particular story. But most depictions show the Celestials are amoral. They don't care about good or evil. They just do things for their own selfish motives, nothing more. What benevolent motive did they have when future Celestials used future Galactus in trying to destroy the universe? (As told in Fantastic Four guest starring Thor and Iron Man) Their motives is not known to lesser beings? Maybe. But  should those lesser beings just let the Celestials exterminate them due to their unknown purpose? No. They are not malicious? Again, one cannot have malice towards insects. Should they just let them be experimented on? Should Marvel earth and the heroes let the Celestials destroy the planet? Not according to most strories in the past.

Just to be clear and lest there be any confusion, I am not espousing the idea that Celestials or Galactus should be exterminated. Exterminating entire  races, including those who are not guilty if it meant stopping those who have malicious intent is just plain wrong. I mentioned the Celestials and Galactus as extreme examples of threats that far outweigh the dangers posed by fire demons and dark elves, but exterminating them is still not the right thing to do.





Posted with Google Chrome 59.0.3071.125 on Linux
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723




    Quote:

    I am sorry and I hope that you won't take it the wrong way but I prefer not to comment that further on the Thor board. From previous experience on the comicboards, it always leads to sensitive & problematic topics (history, personal philosophy, politics , ...) too far away from the entertainment of the comics themselves.


I understand. I have run across the same issue.

To reiterate, I am playing devil's advocate. Aaron started opening up these questions with his current storyline and I wanted to know what some other Thor fans thought.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,723



    Quote:
    .That is essentially the same as your proposition in exterminating the entire race of dark elves and fire demons. It means little that Galactus is somehow some innocent victim of a cosmic joke.


I would beg to differ.  I specifically drew a different beteween some violent races and others.  That is why I did not mention the Frost Giants.  While violent, they can be managed.  Galactus and his heralds can be reasoned with or at least avoided.  Galactus is different than say his creation Tyrant or first herald the Fallen One who are evil entities that destroy for no other than they they want to.


    Quote:
    And about Galactus being innocent...not really. Some writer may have written that he somehow wants to cure himself of his hunger...but most writers write him as indifferent, and totally without concern whether he consumes an inhabited world or no But there are also other writers who depicts Galactus as being vengeful,

That is a problem all characters have.  Some writers portray Odin as a wise king.  Others as unreasonable, but still benevolent.  And others as an outright tyrant.


    Quote:
    About the Celestials having some sort of benevolent motive...sure, in "Alone Against the Celestials", maybe....but all the other depictions of the Celestials are unconcerned about good or evil. Their ultimate goal is not known. Writers make it up as they go along, and with what works for their particular story. But most depictions show the Celestials are amoral. They don't care about good or evil. They just do things for their own selfish motives, nothing more.

    quote] What benevolent motive did they have when future Celestials used future Galactus in trying to destroy the universe? (As told in Fantastic Four guest starring Thor and Iron Man)


Wasn't that  the rogue Dreaming Celestial who at the time was considered a villain even by the other Celestials?  I don't see how that can be used against the others.



    Quote:
    Their motives is not known to lesser beings? Maybe. But  should those lesser beings just let the Celestials exterminate them due to their unknown purpose? No. They are not malicious? Again, one cannot have malice towards insects. Should they just let them be experimented on? Should Marvel earth and the heroes let the Celestials destroy the planet? Not according to most strories in the past.

The right to fight for survival is a fundamental right of all living beings.  That is something the Living Tribunal itself made clear during the Infinity Gauntlet.  Just as humans have the right to fight the likes of Galactus and Celestials a virus would have the right to fight for its own survival.   


    Quote:
    Just to be clear and lest there be any confusion, I am not espousing the idea that Celestials or Galactus should be exterminated. Exterminating entire  races, including those who are not guilty if it meant stopping those who have malicious intent is just plain wrong. I mentioned the Celestials and Galactus as extreme examples of threats that far outweigh the dangers posed by fire demons and dark elves, but exterminating them is still not the right thing to do.

And just for me to be clear, I am still playing devil's advocate in a fictional univesre. 

But I still draw a difference. Galactus and Celestials are higher beings that, depending on the writer operate by an alien mindset. To them, humans, elves even gods are little more than insects, rats or cows.  Good and Evil are not dualities the higher beings of the Marvel Universe generally concern themselves with.  Malekith and the Dark Elves do not have that excuse. They do not have the same alien mindset.  They are not higher beings.   They know what they are doing is evil and do it anyway. 

Asgard does not have the power to police the universe.   Focusing on their own backyard is often the best they can do.  Threats like Galactus and the Celestials are beyond their power to cope with (usually).  That is why I focused on those threats instead of ones in the greater universe. 

Also, in any story that the heroes consider an option like this it should be considered a very last option where others have been considered and exhausted.  In the case of the Dark Elves and Fire Demons, there is a long list of things Asgard could try besides only beating them back to their home realms and waiting for them to attack again.

Honestly, that is one reason I have been disappointed in the War of the Realm's story.  Despite how long it it, Aaron has not bothered to explore the Fire Demons are Dark Elves beyond one-dimensional villains.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on MacOS X
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,100



    Quote:
    I understand. I have run across the same issue.

Thanks \:\-\)


    Quote:

    To reiterate, I am playing devil's advocate. Aaron started opening up these questions with his current storyline and I wanted to know what some other Thor fans thought.


I understand that too. \:\-\)


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2017 Powermad Software