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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445


I would have her first four-issue arc be about dealing with her return and with the X-Men. She gets caught up on the status quo, she hugs, cries and punches a few fellow mutants. Maybe the Juggernaut shows up and she single-handedly defeats him WITHOUT any sign, sniff or even passing hint of the Phoenix. And then she leaves the X universe.

No Mr. Sinister lurking around the corner, no Mastermind or Shadow King in the mirror. No More X-Universe.

Who would be an awesome character to pair up in a Hard Traveling Heroes themed arc (issues 5-10)? I am leaning toward She-Hulk, all grey and out of sorts. Oe maybe Captain Monica....minus Blue Marvel...with the exception of a few cameos. Somehow they are drawn together.

Better yet, maybe her new pal and potential traveling companion is Zemo.
Maybe they have a weird connection....working arrangement with each other. They meet and she's like, "I don't work with Nazi blood" and remarks under his sock and replies "I don't work with planet eaters". Both want to fix the world but in different ways than before, no ties to the past for either. It's like the Thunderbolts for two. And they somehow explain away Zemo's out of character behavior for the last 4-6 years too.

I would have some weird circumstance and have her linked to the ghost of Rick Jones...like Rick and Capt. Marvels....just for an arc before Rick is saved (STILL NO PHOENIX, NEVER ANY PHOENIX!!)

And throughout the Rick arc, you have her teasing her about all the stupid things the X-Men have done over the last 13 years since she was dead.




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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 491


Jean Grey, in a desperate gambit to save her friends from the Shadow King, uses the Phoenix force to deliberately cut off ALL telepaths from the Astral Plane and from their Telepathy.

This has some immediate devastating effects. 1) Psylocke, White Queen, the Stepford Cuckoos are all powerless without their telepathy 2) Jean no longer as the Phoenix Force, which is now stuck shielding all mutants from the Astral Realm and their telepathy and 3) Professor X's spirit is trapped in an eternal battle with the Shadow King with no relief. In fact, it is Professor X's last thought to Jean is pleading with her "Do NOT LEAVE ME ALONE", and this is heard by all the X-Men.

So we're left with everyone is suspicious of Jean Grey. Telepaths (like Psylocke) want to kill her for taking away their telepathy. Anti-Mutant groups are praising her for "stopping the mutant menace." The X-Men themselves love and miss her, but she cannot come home to the X-Mansion because too many mutants (even on their own team) hate her for what she did. Storm outright hates her for condemning Professor X to death and maiming mutants. Rachel hates her for destroying the Phoenix force and being so negligent with it.

The ONLY person to come to her defense is Emma Frost. She knows what it is like to live as a pariah. She knows what it is like to lose your body and your telepathy. She also hates Jean Grey, but she also wants her powers back. So they go on a journey.

Jean Grey, Emma Frost, and Tessa/Sage(who is being paid by Emma Frost) to find a way to get telepathy back to Mutants. Their main adversary is Cassandra Nova, who is either a manifestation of Emma Frost's telepathy or the actual Cassandra Nova, who can body swap with other people.

- l.k.



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America's Captain 

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Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
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    Quote:
    I would have her first four-issue arc be about dealing with her return and with the X-Men. She gets caught up on the status quo, she hugs, cries and punches a few fellow mutants. Maybe the Juggernaut shows up and she single-handedly defeats him WITHOUT any sign, sniff or even passing hint of the Phoenix.


Sounds good so far.


    Quote:
    And then she leaves the X universe.


I'm good with this too, because - and I sincerely and strongly believe this - if a mutant can't be successful in a non-mutant context, then that mutant is at best B-list, probably more like C-list.

Does Wolverine - say what you will, he's unquestionably A-list - work in a non-mutant context? Yes, of course he does. He can be placed in any conceivable context, just as Spider-Man (or any A-lister) can. In fact, versatility of this sort may well be a criterion for being A-list in the first place.

If Jean can only work in a mutant context, then she is, at best, B-list - and why bother resurrecting a B-list character? (By this logic, of course, Bucky should have stayed dead - and lo and behold, I do in fact contend that Bucky should have stayed dead.)


    Quote:
    No Mr. Sinister lurking around the corner, no Mastermind or Shadow King in the mirror. No More X-Universe.


I'm still with you.


    Quote:
    Who would be an awesome character to pair up in a Hard Traveling Heroes themed arc (issues 5-10)? I am leaning toward She-Hulk, all grey and out of sorts. Oe maybe Captain Monica....minus Blue Marvel...with the exception of a few cameos. Somehow they are drawn together.


Yuck. I hate Thelma & Louise stories.


    Quote:
    Better yet, maybe her new pal and potential traveling companion is Zemo.
    Maybe they have a weird connection....working arrangement with each other. They meet and she's like, "I don't work with Nazi blood" and remarks under his sock and replies "I don't work with planet eaters". Both want to fix the world but in different ways than before, no ties to the past for either. It's like the Thunderbolts for two. And they somehow explain away Zemo's out of character behavior for the last 4-6 years too.


OK. I have to acknowledge the sheer exuberant originality of that suggestion. Never in a million years would I have come up with Jean and Zemo as a duo. So which one is Zemo - Thelma or Louise?

More on this below.


    Quote:
    I would have some weird circumstance and have her linked to the ghost of Rick Jones...like Rick and Capt. Marvels....just for an arc before Rick is saved (STILL NO PHOENIX, NEVER ANY PHOENIX!!)


NEVER ANY PHOENIX! What a sweet motto. I love it.

But here again - Jean and Rick Jones? Exuberant originality continues to demand acknowledgment.


    Quote:
    And throughout the Rick arc, you have him teasing her about all the stupid things the X-Men have done over the last 13 years since she was dead.


So Rick would provide the snark factor. Interesting. I'm getting a Difficult People (Netflix original series) vibe, but with neither character gay.

OK. So do I have any better ideas?

No. I've been wracking my brain and I just can't come up with any Jean Grey solo story that's worth telling.

Because she doesn't exist solo. She only exists in relation to other characters, primarily Scott, Professor X, Logan - and the Phoenix, cosmic entity, although Hank, Bobby, and Warren were always pretty important too.

This is similar to how Wanda only existed in relation to Pietro, the Vision, and Wonder Man. Or how Susan Richards only existed in relation to Reed, Johnny, Ben, Franklin, and Valeria.

Hmm. Jean and Zemo. Hmm. This may sound crazy, but I think there's a story to be told here. Jean will only be interesting if she's given an agenda. That's what she never had, except when driven by the Phoenix. An agenda. Which is what Wanda never had, until she went insane. And what Susan Richards never had, except when she turned evil.

So the agenda will be: Jean and Zemo take over the world - for the good of sapient beings everywhere. What do you think?






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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445


I'd buy that....dark and different and pretty damn earth shattering.


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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445


I am happy that you are happy, you are kind in your praise. Sadly, we both know there is a snowball chance in hell Marvel would ever make anything so original for Jean. She will be tied to the X-Men and the Phoenix like a large anchor dragging her down into uselessness once more. What a waste.


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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445



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America's Captain 

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The Black Guardian 

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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445



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America's Captain 

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Grey Gargoyle


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brokenrobot


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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,343



    Quote:
    I'm good with this too, because - and I sincerely and strongly believe this - if a mutant can't be successful in a non-mutant context, then that mutant is at best B-list, probably more like C-list.



    Quote:
    Does Wolverine - say what you will, he's unquestionably A-list - work in a non-mutant context? Yes, of course he does. He can be placed in any conceivable context, just as Spider-Man (or any A-lister) can. In fact, versatility of this sort may well be a criterion for being A-list in the first place.



    Quote:
    If Jean can only work in a mutant context, then she is, at best, B-list - and why bother resurrecting a B-list character? (By this logic, of course, Bucky should have stayed dead - and lo and behold, I do in fact contend that Bucky should have stayed dead.)


At first glance I found this theory intriguing, but on reflection I'm not so sure. By that logic Angel and Iceman - who worked as Champions and Defenders just as well as they did as X-Men - would have been A-listers since the 1970s while Professor X and Cyclops would merely be B-listers, at best, because they really have yet to show that they can successfully work in a non-X context. Yet Charles and Scott are characters who have to a large extent defined the X-books (they ARE a crucial part of the context) while Warren and Bobby are more like optional extras (or X-tras) in the wider scheme of things.(1) So while the definition looks at an interesting aspect of gauging a character's dramatic/narrative usefulness, it is incomplete by itself and has to be supplemented by others.

(1) Same fans also would say that Batman does not work (or at least only at a fraction of his normal form) outside of Gotham City and the Batman family books, snorting derisively when they see or utter the three words "Batman in space", but Batman is undoubtedly an A-list hero.




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,444




I've been wanting a Zemo/Jean story for years.

Helmut becomes the Phoenix Entity and takes back the Phoenix codename and Jean becomes his wife Baorness Zemo. (Fixer is Best Man, Storm is maid of honor. Beast officiates) Jean's not a fan of his politics but she likes his moxey and never give up attitude.

When they were dating Jean tells Helmut all about her complicated life. About being dead. He tells her he's been there. About being cloned and her ex marrying said clone. He tells her about his ex wife pretending to be his dad in a woman's body. She tells him how much she hates Emma Frost and he tells her how much she sounds like Karla Sofen and that they're both catty bitches who tear people down and have nothing to offer. She tells him about how devalued she is with her daughter from the future taking her codename, her teen self showing up, the Phoenix entity taking over her life. He tells her how he felt when Dallas Riordan stole his Citizen V codename. how it felt when the Crimson Cowl took over the Masters of Evil and how Bucky coming back robbed his family of their super villainy street creed. She tells him about she felt like Scott made a fool out of her with his emotional affair with Emma. He tells her about how he was trying to save the world and Songbird betrayed him. She tells him about how much it sucks that all her family has been murdered...he tells her about going back in time and realizing all his ancestors were dinks. Jean realizes he's just as scarred as she is but he wears his scars as a badge of honor.

Zemo not liking time travelers any more than I do convinces Jean how horrible all these monsters are and sets about killing all of Jean's alternate timeline relatives or reincarnations...teen Jean, Hope, Rachel, X-Man, Cable, Stryfe, and just to be safe Hyperstorm and Tyler Askani's corpses and puts them through his father's greatest invention...Woodchipper X a device so powerful that it not only destroys a thing but it also destroys every iteration of that thing in the multuiverse so no other version of it can ever exist again anywhere else either.

With Zemo as her man they decide to honeymoon in the Shi'ar empire incinerating the royalty and the Imperial Guard for all the times they've made Jean miserable like putting her on trial or slaughtering her family. Using the Phoenix Force (and maybe a cosmic cube the Red Skull let him borrow) Zemo brings back Jean's real relatives her parents, her sister and brother in-law, her niece and nephew. Jean becomes pregnant with twins. Helmut bring his father Heinrich back from the dead to meet his grandchildren John and Hilda...but then they argue and Helmut just ends up killing him again.

After weakening the Shi'ar Empire Zemo takes over where Jean's former brother-in-law Vulcan left off. Earth is made part of the Shi'ar Empire. Helmut using a show of force as the Phoenix Entity makes the Kree, Skrull, Badoon empires submit. They all become one intergalactic empire with Earth as the homeworld. Zemo and Jean with the Phoenix Force rule the empire fairly for a thousand years and prosperity reigns. And they keep Captain America alive because he's so jealous that Helmut brought peace to the universe...Helmut wants him to experience the joy forever.



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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    At first glance I found this theory intriguing, but on reflection I'm not so sure. By that logic Angel and Iceman - who worked as Champions and Defenders just as well as they did as X-Men - would have been A-listers since the 1970s while Professor X and Cyclops would merely be B-listers, at best, because they really have yet to show that they can successfully work in a non-X context. Yet Charles and Scott are characters who have to a large extent defined the X-books (they ARE a crucial part of the context) while Warren and Bobby are more like optional extras (or X-tras) in the wider scheme of things.(1) So while the definition looks at an interesting aspect of gauging a character's dramatic/narrative usefulness, it is incomplete by itself and has to be supplemented by others.


I don't personally consider Scott or Xavier to be A-list. Just as I don't consider Johnny Storm to be A-list. They're defined by their original context and can't expand beyond it. As for Warren and Bobby, well, when I said "work" I meant successfully. Sure, they were members of the Champions - and the book was cancelled. They were members of the Defenders - and the book was cancelled. So yes, they appeared in other contexts - but they weren't successful. I say this despite my love of the original Champions.

By contrast, Spider-Man and Wolverine were added to the Avengers, and that book became a top seller almost overnight! Additionally, Spider-Man had his Marvel Team-Up book in the 70s, in which he explored every context imaginable, and it lasted for 150 issues. Wolverine's solo career has taken him all over the Marvel Universe, well beyond the limits of strictly mutant concerns.

Oh, and Batman had The Brave & The Bold in which he explored all sorts of contexts for 126 issues.

I realize there's a chicken and the egg problem here. Do characters work successfully in varied contexts because they're A-list, or are they A-list at least partially because they can work successfully in varied contexts? In which direction does the causality flow? Nevertheless, show me a character who only works successfully in a narrow context, and I will show you a character who is not A-list.







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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    I've been wanting a Zemo/Jean story for years.


See? That's what I'm talkin' about.


    Quote:
    Helmut becomes the Phoenix Entity and takes back the Phoenix codename and Jean becomes his wife Baorness Zemo.


NEVER THE PHOENIX!

Just sayin'.


    Quote:
    (Fixer is Best Man, Storm is maid of honor. Beast officiates) Jean's not a fan of his politics but she likes his moxey and never give up attitude.


Now we're getting somewhere. I mean, really, Zemo is only maybe one step down from Logan. (Let's not conveniently forget Wolverine's dark moods. Usually they end with a bloody mess on the floor.)


    Quote:
    When they were dating Jean tells Helmut all about her complicated life. About being dead. He tells her he's been there. About being cloned and her ex marrying said clone. He tells her about his ex wife pretending to be his dad in a woman's body. She tells him how much she hates Emma Frost and he tells her how much she sounds like Karla Sofen and that they're both catty bitches who tear people down and have nothing to offer. She tells him about how devalued she is with her daughter from the future taking her codename, her teen self showing up, the Phoenix entity taking over her life. He tells her how he felt when Dallas Riordan stole his Citizen V codename. how it felt when the Crimson Cowl took over the Masters of Evil and how Bucky coming back robbed his family of their super villainy street creed. She tells him about she felt like Scott made a fool out of her with his emotional affair with Emma. He tells her about how he was trying to save the world and Songbird betrayed him. She tells him about how much it sucks that all her family has been murdered...he tells her about going back in time and realizing all his ancestors were dinks. Jean realizes he's just as scarred as she is but he wears his scars as a badge of honor.


That paragraph was a thing of beauty.


    Quote:
    Zemo not liking time travelers any more than I do convinces Jean how horrible all these monsters are and sets about killing all of Jean's alternate timeline relatives or reincarnations...teen Jean, Hope, Rachel, X-Man, Cable, Stryfe, and just to be safe Hyperstorm and Tyler Askani's corpses and puts them through his father's greatest invention...Woodchipper X a device so powerful that it not only destroys a thing but it also destroys every iteration of that thing in the multuiverse so no other version of it can ever exist again anywhere else either.


Catharsis!

I don't hate the time traveling stuff as much as you do, Reverend, but OK, let's run with it.


    Quote:
    With Zemo as her man they decide to honeymoon in the Shi'ar empire incinerating the royalty and the Imperial Guard for all the times they've made Jean miserable like putting her on trial or slaughtering her family. Using the Phoenix Force (and maybe a cosmic cube the Red Skull let him borrow) Zemo brings back Jean's real relatives her parents, her sister and brother in-law, her niece and nephew. Jean becomes pregnant with twins. Helmut bring his father Heinrich back from the dead to meet his grandchildren John and Hilda...but then they argue and Helmut just ends up killing him again.


NEVER THE PHOENIX!

Just sayin'.

But to be honest, I think Jean and Zemo could take over the Shi'Ar Empire without the Phoenix Force. Watching them try would make for a great story. Remember, aside from those stinking Phoenix stories, I'm pretty sure we've never seen Jean Grey cut loose with her telepathy unhampered by arbitrary moral rules. (Nor with her telekinesis either.) For example, I bet she could kill Gladiator by making him doubt himself so completely that his heart stops.


    Quote:
    After weakening the Shi'ar Empire Zemo takes over where Jean's former brother-in-law Vulcan left off. Earth is made part of the Shi'ar Empire. Helmut using a show of force as the Phoenix Entity makes the Kree, Skrull, Badoon empires submit. They all become one intergalactic empire with Earth as the homeworld. Zemo and Jean with the Phoenix Force rule the empire fairly for a thousand years and prosperity reigns. And they keep Captain America alive because he's so jealous that Helmut brought peace to the universe...Helmut wants him to experience the joy forever.


I would let this end game be witnessed via time travel into the future, but I wouldn't let the comic actually reach this point in the present day.

What I like about your scenario is, it gives Jean an agenda, which is what she needs. Also, as must be obvious, I don't have anything invested emotionally in her remaining a heroine. All I ask is, if she becomes some sort of villain - let her be good at it. Let her be one of the ones who actually carves out a realm to rule. Doom had Latveria. Let Jean and Zemo have the Shi'Ar Emprire - which, let's face it, is a billion times cooler than Latveria.






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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,343



    Quote:

      Quote:
      At first glance I found this theory intriguing, but on reflection I'm not so sure. By that logic Angel and Iceman - who worked as Champions and Defenders just as well as they did as X-Men - would have been A-listers since the 1970s while Professor X and Cyclops would merely be B-listers, at best, because they really have yet to show that they can successfully work in a non-X context. Yet Charles and Scott are characters who have to a large extent defined the X-books (they ARE a crucial part of the context) while Warren and Bobby are more like optional extras (or X-tras) in the wider scheme of things.(1) So while the definition looks at an interesting aspect of gauging a character's dramatic/narrative usefulness, it is incomplete by itself and has to be supplemented by others.



    Quote:
    I don't personally consider Scott or Xavier to be A-list. Just as I don't consider Johnny Storm to be A-list. They're defined by their original context and can't expand beyond it. As for Warren and Bobby, well, when I said "work" I meant successfully. Sure, they were members of the Champions - and the book was cancelled. They were members of the Defenders - and the book was cancelled. So yes, they appeared in other contexts - but they weren't successful. I say this despite my love of the original Champions.


Well, it's your personal definition, so you are free to stick to it and I am free not to. However, while I don't have any sales figures for the last years of the Defenders, but to me at the time it looked as if the series had not been cancelled because it was unsuccessful (it was a title I still enjoyed), but by editorial fiat. They lost half their team (the Angel, Iceman and the Beast, not to mention team leader Candy Southern) because the characters were needed for the launch of X-Factor. (X-Factor #1 and New Defenders #152, the final issue, came out the exact same month). So I got the feeling that the Defenders were at least partly cancelled to ensure that the readers would follow the three ex-X-Men to the new X-Factor book. The problem with that was that the launch of X-Factor for a while undid most of how Warren, Bobby and Hank had evolved since they left the X-Men in X-Men vol. 1 #94 as the creators were very much on a trip to recreate the X-Men of their youth (they removed Hank's fur, tried to revive the old Scott-Jean-Warren triangle, and even brought back Hank's 1960s girlfriend Vera Cantor).

The Human Torch also had his solo outings, first in Strange Tales and later as a frequent participant in Marvel Team-Up (he was, IIRC, the most frequently used hero after Spider-Man there and would usually headline the title in the ten or twenty issues where Spidey did not appear). And currently he is appearing in Uncanny Avengers (where I like him a lot).

But using your definition, I am pretty sure that Jean can never become an A-lister. As things stand, her "constituency" in the majority consists of people who love her because of her history as an X-Man, and if she does find success it will largely be because of that, and, as we've seen on another thread, many of those who want her to return say that she has to return because the X-books need her. So I have to wonder whether Marvel or even a majority of fans wants Jean to appear in a title away from the X-Men (either solo or in a team with random non-mutant characters) and if a book like the ones pitched here actually is launched and becomes viable, I think it will be lucky if it lasts a year or two before Jean is drawn back into the family of X-books - i.e. less time than Warren or Bobby spent on the Champions and Defenders.



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The Black Guardian 

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Posts: 20,573


According to an interview in Back Issue, Perlin recounts that Defenders was dropped to make room for the New Universe lineup.


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America's Captain 

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    Quote:
    Well, it's your personal definition, so you are free to stick to it and I am free not to. However, while I don't have any sales figures for the last years of the Defenders, but to me at the time it looked as if the series had not been cancelled because it was unsuccessful (it was a title I still enjoyed), but by editorial fiat. They lost half their team (the Angel, Iceman and the Beast, not to mention team leader Candy Southern) because the characters were needed for the launch of X-Factor. (X-Factor #1 and New Defenders #152, the final issue, came out the exact same month). So I got the feeling that the Defenders were at least partly cancelled to ensure that the readers would follow the three ex-X-Men to the new X-Factor book.


Hmm. OK. You make a good point. I saw Black Guardian's reply, which suggests making room for New Universe drove the cancellation. Probably both X-Factor and New Universe were to blame.

So now I'm wondering why the Champions were cancelled.

You know - maybe character success is less natural selection and more political buffoonery than I was thinking.


    Quote:
    The problem with that was that the launch of X-Factor for a while undid most of how Warren, Bobby and Hank had evolved since they left the X-Men in X-Men vol. 1 #94 as the creators were very much on a trip to recreate the X-Men of their youth (they removed Hank's fur, tried to revive the old Scott-Jean-Warren triangle, and even brought back Hank's 1960s girlfriend Vera Cantor).


The whole 1986 thing was ridiculous. It really was a very bad year. Except for Ralph Snart.


    Quote:
    The Human Torch also had his solo outings, first in Strange Tales and later as a frequent participant in Marvel Team-Up (he was, IIRC, the most frequently used hero after Spider-Man there and would usually headline the title in the ten or twenty issues where Spidey did not appear). And currently he is appearing in Uncanny Avengers (where I like him a lot).


I can't bring myself to read an Avengers book lately - but I like the general concept of Johnny Storm travelling around through a variety of books. I didn't like him with Medusa as I couldn't get past my initial impression that Medusa was robbing the cradle, but the general concept of Johnny having a place to appear was pleasing to me. Maybe his next stop will be an X-book. Oddly enough, as I sit here pondering what characters I'd most like to see him teamed with, I end up picturing him with the old entertaining version of the furry Beast (which of course means the Avengers version) along with Warren and Bobby - and yeah, that works, at least for me.


    Quote:
    But using your definition, I am pretty sure that Jean can never become an A-lister. As things stand, her "constituency" in the majority consists of people who love her because of her history as an X-Man, and if she does find success it will largely be because of that, and, as we've seen on another thread, many of those who want her to return say that she has to return because the X-books need her. So I have to wonder whether Marvel or even a majority of fans wants Jean to appear in a title away from the X-Men (either solo or in a team with random non-mutant characters) and if a book like the ones pitched here actually is launched and becomes viable, I think it will be lucky if it lasts a year or two before Jean is drawn back into the family of X-books - i.e. less time than Warren or Bobby spent on the Champions and Defenders.


Yeah - so now I'm picturing a new X-book specially designed with the Reverend and Black Guardian in mind: it would feature 1963 teen Jean, 1975 twenty-something Jean, Rachel, and Hope, with the working title of "Quadrijeania."

(AC ducks, covers, and runs.)






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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,343



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Well, it's your personal definition, so you are free to stick to it and I am free not to. However, while I don't have any sales figures for the last years of the Defenders, but to me at the time it looked as if the series had not been cancelled because it was unsuccessful (it was a title I still enjoyed), but by editorial fiat. They lost half their team (the Angel, Iceman and the Beast, not to mention team leader Candy Southern) because the characters were needed for the launch of X-Factor. (X-Factor #1 and New Defenders #152, the final issue, came out the exact same month). So I got the feeling that the Defenders were at least partly cancelled to ensure that the readers would follow the three ex-X-Men to the new X-Factor book.



    Quote:
    Hmm. OK. You make a good point. I saw Black Guardian's reply, which suggests making room for New Universe drove the cancellation. Probably both X-Factor and New Universe were to blame.


Sounds like it.


    Quote:
    So now I'm wondering why the Champions were cancelled.


Here I would guess it really had something to do with disappointing sales. Depending on whether you consider titles like The Defenders "A" or "B-list" during the prime of the title in the 1970s, the Champions never were more than a B or C-list team; the book never made the jump from every other month to monthly (and even a niche title like The Eternals was published monthly in the 1970s).


    Quote:
    You know - maybe character success is less natural selection and more political buffoonery than I was thinking.


Well, decisions by editorial and management definitely enter into it (just look at the way The Fantastic Four were cancelled due to orders from on high).


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The problem with that was that the launch of X-Factor for a while undid most of how Warren, Bobby and Hank had evolved since they left the X-Men in X-Men vol. 1 #94 as the creators were very much on a trip to recreate the X-Men of their youth (they removed Hank's fur, tried to revive the old Scott-Jean-Warren triangle, and even brought back Hank's 1960s girlfriend Vera Cantor).



    Quote:
    The whole 1986 thing was ridiculous. It really was a very bad year. Except for Ralph Snart.


Oh yes, I just looked back, there was this continuous editorial infighting, especially on the Spider-Man books which led to the sacking of Tom DeFalco as head writer and the fumbling of the resolution of the Hobgoblin mystery the following year, and ultimately to the sacking of Jim Shooter as E-in-C (might have been a different story if his pet project, the New Universe, had not been such a failure).


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The Human Torch also had his solo outings, first in Strange Tales and later as a frequent participant in Marvel Team-Up (he was, IIRC, the most frequently used hero after Spider-Man there and would usually headline the title in the ten or twenty issues where Spidey did not appear). And currently he is appearing in Uncanny Avengers (where I like him a lot).



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    I can't bring myself to read an Avengers book lately - but I like the general concept of Johnny Storm travelling around through a variety of books. I didn't like him with Medusa as I couldn't get past my initial impression that Medusa was robbing the cradle, but the general concept of Johnny having a place to appear was pleasing to me. Maybe his next stop will be an X-book. Oddly enough, as I sit here pondering what characters I'd most like to see him teamed with, I end up picturing him with the old entertaining version of the furry Beast (which of course means the Avengers version) along with Warren and Bobby - and yeah, that works, at least for me.


Well, the Beast and Wonder Man are apparently joining the cast of Uncanny Avengers, so maybe you should give that title a try. And pick up the last few TPBs (Duggan's run). Rogue and Johnny really have a nice interplay; he had been romantically involved with Rogue in one of those so-and-so-many-months gap you get from time to time (i.e. before he became involved with his ex-girlfriend's older sister), and now they're close friends. Speaking of Medusa: How much older than Crystal is she supposed to be?


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      But using your definition, I am pretty sure that Jean can never become an A-lister. As things stand, her "constituency" in the majority consists of people who love her because of her history as an X-Man, and if she does find success it will largely be because of that, and, as we've seen on another thread, many of those who want her to return say that she has to return because the X-books need her. So I have to wonder whether Marvel or even a majority of fans wants Jean to appear in a title away from the X-Men (either solo or in a team with random non-mutant characters) and if a book like the ones pitched here actually is launched and becomes viable, I think it will be lucky if it lasts a year or two before Jean is drawn back into the family of X-books - i.e. less time than Warren or Bobby spent on the Champions and Defenders.



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    Yeah - so now I'm picturing a new X-book specially designed with the Reverend and Black Guardian in mind: it would feature 1963 teen Jean, 1975 twenty-something Jean, Rachel, and Hope, with the working title of "Quadrijeania."



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    (AC ducks, covers, and runs.)


LOL


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The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,573


Everything I've read suggests Champions was cancelled due to sales. Most of the series' existence was spent as a bimonthly book (every other month), which is what Marvel did with low sellers back then. There was an attempt to generate interest just before the end, by guest starring in other titles, and when that failed, the plug was pulled. The ending was sort of abrupt, and the team didn't disband until after the series ended.

The series had many problems that caused the low sales. There never was a good reason for the team to be together. There was instability in the creative team (like a dozen different combos between the 17 issues). The cast probably played a role, too. And no really good stable villains.


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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445


Love It! I knew you would take the ball and run with this one Reverend.


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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445





    Quote:
    Yeah - so now I'm picturing a new X-book specially designed with the Reverend and Black Guardian in mind: it would feature 1963 teen Jean, 1975 twenty-something Jean, Rachel, and Hope, with the working title of "Quadrijeania."



    Quote:
    (AC ducks, covers, and runs.)


Bwahahahahahahahahaha


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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 445


It's funny, in my youth I loved the Champions. Just the idea of such a diverse, downright bizarre mix of a long time Marvel heroes coming together tickled my adolescent funny bone. But looking back, they were poorly written and as you said, Guardian, never given much to a motivation. How many times can a team fight Swarm?


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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,538



    Quote:

      Quote:
      So now I'm wondering why the Champions were cancelled.


    Here I would guess it really had something to do with disappointing sales. Depending on whether you consider titles like The Defenders "A" or "B-list" during the prime of the title in the 1970s, the Champions never were more than a B or C-list team; the book never made the jump from every other month to monthly (and even a niche title like The Eternals was published monthly in the 1970s).


Bi-monthly publishing has always seemed self-defeating to me. It's much harder to get readers emotionally invested in something that won't come around again for two months. But yeah, I guess the Champions were B-list at best. I blame Ghost Rider. (At the time, Johnny Blaze was keeping his human mind and speech patterns while skull-faced, which made him far less cool to read about.)


    Quote:
    Oh yes, I just looked back, there was this continuous editorial infighting, especially on the Spider-Man books which led to the sacking of Tom DeFalco as head writer and the fumbling of the resolution of the Hobgoblin mystery the following year, and ultimately to the sacking of Jim Shooter as E-in-C (might have been a different story if his pet project, the New Universe, had not been such a failure).


Jim Shooter is an enigma to me.


    Quote:
    Well, the Beast and Wonder Man are apparently joining the cast of Uncanny Avengers, so maybe you should give that title a try.


I'll at least thumb through it at the shop.


    Quote:
    And pick up the last few TPBs (Duggan's run). Rogue and Johnny really have a nice interplay; he had been romantically involved with Rogue in one of those so-and-so-many-months gap you get from time to time (i.e. before he became involved with his ex-girlfriend's older sister), and now they're close friends. Speaking of Medusa: How much older than Crystal is she supposed to be?


Back in the day, it seemed to me that Crystal was Johnny's age and Medusa was Reed's age. Now throw Rogue into the mix. Was she an item with Johnny when she was supposed to be a teen-ager? Johnny just seems to date anything that moves. Bea Arthur might be next. Followed by Ms. Marvel on the day she turns 18. Followed by Carol Danvers. Followed by a resurrected Agatha Harkness. Followed by Squirrel Girl. Followed by Aunt May. Followed by Mystique.

And then Marvel will reveal that Johnny swings both ways and we'll have everyone's dream couple, fire and ice, you guessed it, Johnny and Bobby, which will melt the interwebs.






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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,343



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        So now I'm wondering why the Champions were cancelled.



      Quote:
      Here I would guess it really had something to do with disappointing sales. Depending on whether you consider titles like The Defenders "A" or "B-list" during the prime of the title in the 1970s, the Champions never were more than a B or C-list team; the book never made the jump from every other month to monthly (and even a niche title like The Eternals was published monthly in the 1970s).



    Quote:
    Bi-monthly publishing has always seemed self-defeating to me. It's much harder to get readers emotionally invested in something that won't come around again for two months. But yeah, I guess the Champions were B-list at best. I blame Ghost Rider. (At the time, Johnny Blaze was keeping his human mind and speech patterns while skull-faced, which made him far less cool to read about.)


Back in the 1960s and 1970s, before the direct market, it was the normal procedure to test the waters, especially with something different from the normal fare, but if the sales weren't big enough to warrant going monthly, then the title could be in trouble. Sometimes a monthly title would also go bi-monthly in the hope of overcoming a difficult patch. Still, there were some fine bi-monthly titles (for instance Dr. Strange became bi-monthly with its first relaunch). Examples:

Fantastic Four vol. 1 - went monthly with #6
The Incredible Hulk vol. 1 - cancelled with #6
The Amazing Spider-Man vol. 1 - went monthly with #4
The Avengers vol. 1 - went monthly with #6
The X-Men vol. 1 - went monthly with #14, cancelled with #66, re-started as a bi-monthly reprint title with #67 nine months later, started bringing new material with #94, went monthly again with #112
Daredevil vol. 1 - went monthly with #11, bi-monthly again with #147, monthly again with #170
Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD, started monthly, went bi-monthly starting with #5, went reprint with #16, cancelled a few issues later
Silver Surfer vol. 1 - went monthly with #7
Marvel Team-Up - went monthly with #7
The Defenders vol. 1 - went monthly with #7, bi-monthly again with #11, monthly again with #15

You'll note that X-Men vol. 1 was a slow starter on both its launches, making the jump to monthly on its 14th and 19th (20th, counting GSXM #1, as you really should) issue, respectively. The Champions were cancelled with #17, but I guess that the X-Men at the same time were slowly but steadily picking up readers while the Champions' sales dropped.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Oh yes, I just looked back, there was this continuous editorial infighting, especially on the Spider-Man books which led to the sacking of Tom DeFalco as head writer and the fumbling of the resolution of the Hobgoblin mystery the following year, and ultimately to the sacking of Jim Shooter as E-in-C (might have been a different story if his pet project, the New Universe, had not been such a failure).



    Quote:
    Jim Shooter is an enigma to me.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Well, the Beast and Wonder Man are apparently joining the cast of Uncanny Avengers, so maybe you should give that title a try.



    Quote:
    I'll at least thumb through it at the shop.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      And pick up the last few TPBs (Duggan's run). Rogue and Johnny really have a nice interplay; he had been romantically involved with Rogue in one of those so-and-so-many-months gap you get from time to time (i.e. before he became involved with his ex-girlfriend's older sister), and now they're close friends. Speaking of Medusa: How much older than Crystal is she supposed to be?



    Quote:
    Back in the day, it seemed to me that Crystal was Johnny's age and Medusa was Reed's age. Now throw Rogue into the mix. Was she an item with Johnny when she was supposed to be a teen-ager? Johnny just seems to date anything that moves. Bea Arthur might be next. Followed by Ms. Marvel on the day she turns 18. Followed by Carol Danvers. Followed by a resurrected Agatha Harkness. Followed by Squirrel Girl. Followed by Aunt May. Followed by Mystique.


Not counting her pubescent kisses with Cody Robbins and that other boy in Caldecott County, and also not counting her hitting on Longshot during the Outback era (which AFAIK she only did to annoy Dazzler) the first time Rogue had romantic feelings anyone was during the Savage Land trilogy, particularly in UXM #274-275, when she was around 20 IIRC. Of course that was for Magneto, so from her POV the age-difference with Johnny is negligible. Johnny is Spider-Man's age, and in MC-2 and the Renew Your Vows reality Peter is a happily married father. The thing between Rogue and Johnny happened in the gap before Uncanny Avengers vol. 1 #1 (the start of the abysmal Remender run).


    Quote:
    And then Marvel will reveal that Johnny swings both ways and we'll have everyone's dream couple, fire and ice, you guessed it, Johnny and Bobby, which will melt the interwebs.





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The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,573


I think it comes down to the times being different. If people can't wait that long, then there's probably something wrong with their attention span.


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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 557


Seriosuly, keep her dead. Especially with Cyclops gone.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,922



    Quote:
    I would have her first four-issue arc be about dealing with her return and with the X-Men. She gets caught up on the status quo, she hugs, cries and punches a few fellow mutants. Maybe the Juggernaut shows up and she single-handedly defeats him WITHOUT any sign, sniff or even passing hint of the Phoenix. And then she leaves the X universe.


I would have Jean in her role as White Phoenix of the Crown leaving the White Hot Room and exploring the new Marvel multiverse, its cosmology, and the Phoenix's role in it. Basically it would be Marvel's version of DC's Sandman dealing with the cosmic/mystical end of things in a poetic fashion. Celestials, the Stranger, Shuma Gorath, the Cancerverse, Elder Gods, Love and Hate, Eternity and Death, and many new characters, many of them abstracts or powerful mystical entities, would appear.



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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,538



    Quote:
    I would have Jean in her role as White Phoenix of the Crown leaving the White Hot Room and exploring the new Marvel multiverse, its cosmology, and the Phoenix's role in it. Basically it would be Marvel's version of DC's Sandman dealing with the cosmic/mystical end of things in a poetic fashion. Celestials, the Stranger, Shuma Gorath, the Cancerverse, Elder Gods, Love and Hate, Eternity and Death, and many new characters, many of them abstracts or powerful mystical entities, would appear.


You get major points from me by just mentioning Shuma Gorath. I love that name. I've loved it since I first encountered it in Steve Englehart's Doctor Strange comic.

I have no idea what the White Hot Room is.








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