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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,194


Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

Namor joined the X-Men during Fraction's run (Now that I think about it, when and why did he leave?), and it seems that he'll be joining another X-team soon. Thinking about it though, I'm not really sure if this makes sense. Yes, Namor was the first mutant, but he's not exactly what you would call a team player. I don't really see him caring all that much about either man or mutantkind. He's too antisocial to really be a team player, and most of the time he just seems to want to be left alone. He also seems to go through periods (Probably because there's no consistent characterization with him. Magneto and Lady Deathstrike seem to have this problem as well.) where he's a borderline villain. I just don't think that he's a good fit and that maybe he shouldn't become a regular part of the X-Universe. What do you guys think?


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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,037



    Quote:
    Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.


Thanks! Same to you!


    Quote:
    Namor joined the X-Men during Fraction's run (Now that I think about it, when and why did he leave?), and it seems that he'll be joining another X-team soon. Thinking about it though, I'm not really sure if this makes sense. Yes, Namor was the first mutant, but he's not exactly what you would call a team player. I don't really see him caring all that much about either man or mutantkind. He's too antisocial to really be a team player, and most of the time he just seems to want to be left alone. He also seems to go through periods (Probably because there's no consistent characterization with him. Magneto and Lady Deathstrike seem to have this problem as well.) where he's a borderline villain. I just don't think that he's a good fit and that maybe he shouldn't become a regular part of the X-Universe. What do you guys think?


Part of X-Universe: Yes, I favor that.

Part of any X-Team: No, I don't favor that.

He should be available to a select few mutants when they need help, and, by the same token, if he asks, they should return the favor. I place both Jean and Jeen in this category. I don't know who else. Storm?

I'm very up in the air as to whether I will buy X-Men Red at all. The team roster is so random it just doesn't attract me at all. I wanted a Jean team full of Jean's people. I got a ragtag lot of whom Namor might actually be the most defensible member, because he deeply respects Jean.






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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,992



    Quote:
    Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.


Also from me.


    Quote:
    Namor joined the X-Men during Fraction's run (Now that I think about it, when and why did he leave?), and it seems that he'll be joining another X-team soon. Thinking about it though, I'm not really sure if this makes sense. Yes, Namor was the first mutant, but he's not exactly what you would call a team player.


Calling Namor the first mutant was just a sales pitch during the 1980s when Marvel thought they could gain more attention for him (also for Cloak and Dagger) by retroactively declaring them mutants and thereby tying them to what at the time was Marvel's top-selling franchise. Within the Marvel Universe Wolverine, Mystique, Destiny, Apocalypse and probably a few more are all older than Namor.


    Quote:
    I don't really see him caring all that much about either man or mutantkind. He's too antisocial to really be a team player, and most of the time he just seems to want to be left alone. He also seems to go through periods (Probably because there's no consistent characterization with him. Magneto and Lady Deathstrike seem to have this problem as well.) where he's a borderline villain. I just don't think that he's a good fit and that maybe he shouldn't become a regular part of the X-Universe. What do you guys think?


Namor may not be much of a team player, but that is true of a lot of X-Men etc., e.g. 1970s Wolverine, Thunderbird I, Sunfire, Northstar, Magneto etc. etc. And Namor actually does not have that bad a record as a team member, having served on the Invaders and the Defenders before he joined the X-Men. The problems that he had were also sometimes preconditioned by him being the ruler of Atlantis, as Atlantis has differnent interests than surface-dwellers both mutant and non-mutant.

Namor has been a morally "grey" character from the beginning and would occasionally wage war on the surface world ever since the Golden Age. Some people say that that is what set Timely/Atlas/Marvel apart from the rest of the superhero field since the 1930s, that their heroes weren't always sterling examples of rectitude but had a dark side.

Well, looks like he's going to be part of X-Men Red, a title I don't intend to read, so for me the matter is mostly academic...






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The Black Guardian 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,755


I don't really want him around.
But I don't really not want him around.

To make him fit in the past, they had to invent this retcon history of him being courted by the Hellfire Club. Shaw manipulated him. Emma manipulated him. And it all ended with the Phoenix Phoe-asco. I really can't see why he'd want to be associated with the X. Were I him, I'd be telling the X-Peoples to GTFO of my life.

'Course, the Phoenix might be a bright spot after the Cabal nonsense.

Blech.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,022




    Quote:
    Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.



    Quote:
    Namor joined the X-Men during Fraction's run (Now that I think about it, when and why did he leave?), and it seems that he'll be joining another X-team soon. Thinking about it though, I'm not really sure if this makes sense. Yes, Namor was the first mutant, but he's not exactly what you would call a team player. I don't really see him caring all that much about either man or mutantkind. He's too antisocial to really be a team player, and most of the time he just seems to want to be left alone. He also seems to go through periods (Probably because there's no consistent characterization with him. Magneto and Lady Deathstrike seem to have this problem as well.) where he's a borderline villain. I just don't think that he's a good fit and that maybe he shouldn't become a regular part of the X-Universe. What do you guys think?


Avengers. Yes. He's the Avenging Son.


X-Men. No. I've always seen him being a mutant to be a technicality. He's an Atlantean/Human hybrid and as a result has a mutation of wings on his ankles that comes from neither parent's species. Big whup.

Namor cares about Atlanteans not Mutants IMO.



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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,037



    Quote:
    Avengers. Yes. He's the Avenging Son.


I'd say there has to be a personal relationship that draws him in. Either that or a direct threat to the oceans or Atlantis.


    Quote:

    X-Men. No. I've always seen him being a mutant to be a technicality. He's an Atlantean/Human hybrid and as a result has a mutation of wings on his ankles that comes from neither parent's species. Big whup.


Yet wings were enough for Warren Worthington to become an X-Man. I think the main reason Namor wouldn't care about his mutant status is that he lives in the ocean. He's unaffected by stupid human prejudices. As for Atlantean prejudices, they come into play with regard to his half-human status.


    Quote:
    Namor cares about Atlanteans not Mutants IMO.


What's the current status of Atlantis? Does it even exist?







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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 838


He also served as an Avenger. That’s where I first encountered the character and I liked his time on the team.


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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,992



    Quote:
    He also served as an Avenger. That’s where I first encountered the character and I liked his time on the team.


I shamefacedly have to confess that I don't remember anything of his time on that team, but then there were long periods when I did not read The Avengers. I was aware that he had been a member, but thanks for clearing up that he was a team player at the time. Also, my unstated reason for focusing on the Invaders and the Defenders was that these were teams that Namor helped found and set up.

Namor's team-related activities go even further. He used to be partnered with Doctor Doom - definitely not a team player - for quite some time, i.e. most of the run of the original Super-Villain Team-Up, and he also belonged to that retconned-in cabal, the Illuminati.




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The Black Guardian 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,755



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Avengers. Yes. He's the Avenging Son.



    Quote:
    I'd say there has to be a personal relationship that draws him in. Either that or a direct threat to the oceans or Atlantis.

It might have something to do with Crosta, the Atlantean mutant... or Loa, the New X-Men student that was sort of his Jubilee for a bit.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Namor cares about Atlanteans not Mutants IMO.



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    What's the current status of Atlantis? Does it even exist?

It was rebuilt after Hyperion destroyed it. We saw it in the recent Nick Fury series.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,022






Atlantis gets destroyed almost as much as Xandar. I keep wondering where Namor finds the Atlanteans to fill the city with.



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The Black Guardian 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,755


I suppose it's really easy to evacuate the city. For all intents and purposes, the entire population "flies" (technically swims). It's easy for them to scatter, and they're not limited to 2 dimensions and highways.

Plus, I'd imagine most Atlanteans are rural just like surface dwellers. We've seen various Atlantean cities over the years, and not just because they were getting destroyed. Just like surface dwellers have NY, Miami, Dallas, etc., Atlanteans have Atlantis (cities, plural*), Tha-Korr, Skarka, Amphitrite, etc. I'm sure they have farming communities and the like, too. Atlantis is a continent. Heck, it's more than a continent: it spans multiple oceans.

* "Atlantis" seems to be a very common Atlantean city name, and there are many Atlantises, like "Springfield."


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,022




    Quote:
    I suppose it's really easy to evacuate the city. For all intents and purposes, the entire population "flies" (technically swims). It's easy for them to scatter, and they're not limited to 2 dimensions and highways.


Didn't Hyperion raise the city in the air and smash it last time? Hard to outswim that.


    Quote:
    Plus, I'd imagine most Atlanteans are rural just like surface dwellers. We've seen various Atlantean cities over the years, and not just because they were getting destroyed. Just like surface dwellers have NY, Miami, Dallas, etc., Atlanteans have Atlantis (cities, plural*), Tha-Korr, Skarka, Amphitrite, etc. I'm sure they have farming communities and the like, too. Atlantis is a continent. Heck, it's more than a continent: it spans multiple oceans.



    Quote:
    * "Atlantis" seems to be a very common Atlantean city name, and there are many Atlantises, like "Springfield."


I want to argue that point because I'm pretty sure it's not true and the human city of Atlantis that fell into the sea was the site where the Atlanteans founded their own Atlantis but there are like 3 Lemuria's so I'd best not go down that rabbit hole.



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The Black Guardian 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,755



    Quote:


      Quote:
      I suppose it's really easy to evacuate the city. For all intents and purposes, the entire population "flies" (technically swims). It's easy for them to scatter, and they're not limited to 2 dimensions and highways.



    Quote:
    Didn't Hyperion raise the city in the air and smash it last time? Hard to outswim that.

I'm sure many swam away before it came out of the water. It's not like Atlanteans just walk around.

Anyway, this was undone by time travel. In the revised event, Hyperion waited until everybody evacuated before he destroyed it.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Plus, I'd imagine most Atlanteans are rural just like surface dwellers. We've seen various Atlantean cities over the years, and not just because they were getting destroyed. Just like surface dwellers have NY, Miami, Dallas, etc., Atlanteans have Atlantis (cities, plural*), Tha-Korr, Skarka, Amphitrite, etc. I'm sure they have farming communities and the like, too. Atlantis is a continent. Heck, it's more than a continent: it spans multiple oceans.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        * "Atlantis" seems to be a very common Atlantean city name, and there are many Atlantises, like "Springfield."



    Quote:
    I want to argue that point because I'm pretty sure it's not true and the human city of Atlantis that fell into the sea was the site where the Atlanteans founded their own Atlantis but there are like 3 Lemuria's so I'd best not go down that rabbit hole.

We've been told of cities called Atlantis in multiple oceans. There's one in the Atlantic (where Byrrah is from), the Pacific (where Namor grew up), Tha-Korr (off the coast of Antarctica) has been called Atlantis on occasion (maybe writers just never cared).


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,022



    Quote:

    We've been told of cities called Atlantis in multiple oceans. There's one in the Atlantic (where Byrrah is from), the Pacific (where Namor grew up), Tha-Korr (off the coast of Antarctica) has been called Atlantis on occasion (maybe writers just never cared).


Pretty sure Lemuria is the one in the pacific. Byrrah and Namor are from the same Atlantis in the Atlantic and grew up together (I believe there is something about Byrrah's mother being a consort of Namor's grandfather...basing that detail on what was said in Saga of the Submariner #2). When Lemuria was introduced I'm pretty sure they made a point about Lemuria being in the Pacific and Atlantis being in the Atlantic.

I think Namor just later moved his city sometime in the modern era to the Pacific after it was decimated a previous time.



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The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 23,755



    Quote:

      Quote:

      We've been told of cities called Atlantis in multiple oceans. There's one in the Atlantic (where Byrrah is from), the Pacific (where Namor grew up), Tha-Korr (off the coast of Antarctica) has been called Atlantis on occasion (maybe writers just never cared).



    Quote:
    Pretty sure Lemuria is the one in the pacific. Byrrah and Namor are from the same Atlantis in the Atlantic and grew up together (I believe there is something about Byrrah's mother being a consort of Namor's grandfather...basing that detail on what was said in Saga of the Submariner #2). When Lemuria was introduced I'm pretty sure they made a point about Lemuria being in the Pacific and Atlantis being in the Atlantic.



    Quote:
    I think Namor just later moved his city sometime in the modern era to the Pacific after it was decimated a previous time.

Namor was born in Tha-Korr, the city off the coast of Antarctica, but moved in early childhood to the Atlantis in the Pacific, per the 2003 Namor series.


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America's Captain 

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Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,037



    Quote:

    Namor was born in Tha-Korr, the city off the coast of Antarctica, but moved in early childhood to the Atlantis in the Pacific, per the 2003 Namor series.


So were the Japanese his first WW2 foes?






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,022




Yes they had that polar city and it was destroyed by the Serpent Crown or something.

But they moved to the Atlantic after that.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,022


There may be a retcon in place after the golden age but when Namor popped up in Fantastic Four Atlantis was between North America and Europe.






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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 838



    Quote:
    I shamefacedly have to confess that I don't remember anything of his time on that team, but then there were long periods when I did not read The Avengers. I was aware that he had been a member, but thanks for clearing up that he was a team player at the time. Also, my unstated reason for focusing on the Invaders and the Defenders was that these were teams that Namor helped found and set up.



    Quote:
    Namor's team-related activities go even further. He used to be partnered with Doctor Doom - definitely not a team player - for quite some time, i.e. most of the run of the original Super-Villain Team-Up, and he also belonged to that retconned-in cabal, the Illuminati.


His time on the team was interesting, from what I remember anyway. He joined after Atlantis "kicked him off the throne" (again) if I'm remembering it right. A lot of his motivation for sticking around was because Cap was on the team.

His time on the Avengers included his getting closer to Marinna (marrying her?). One of my favourite storylines was his involvement with the Avenger's Assault on Olympus.




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