Subj: Re: Captain America, Hiroshima and Chuck Austen..Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 at 08:23:41 am EDT (Viewed 475 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Captain America, Hiroshima and Chuck Austen..
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 at 05:00:43 pm EDT (Viewed 477 times)
Quote:I actually agree, that cap would not have stayed Cap if he had not been frozen, and I would like to expand on that, but first I would like to address some other things, including how frozen Cap could be okay with it.
Quote:I also think that there is precedent in comics to back me. And there are a few other things I would like to address, but first the precedents.
Quote:-In INVADERS NOW! it is revealed that the Invaders killed a whole town (murdered as Cap put it). He showed deep regret, even willing to sacrifice his life to bring them back, but acknowledged the the necessity of the time.
Quote:-IN ALL-WINNERS SQUAD: BAND OF HEROES (an incredibly underrated mini-series that didn't even get an end due to economic issues), there is a mystery of what happened to a hero, while it is never revealed, it is clear it was nothing good. It is also made known, Cap was at the least aware of it.
Quote:- This may seem cheap, but in Gruenwald's run, he did kill a man to sve a life, and this is just a larger example of that.
Quote:For the other things to clear up...
Quote:Yes, the bombing of Nagasaki was necessary. It is a misconception that a single blast, or even two ended the war. In actuality it was the threat of a third dropped on Tokyo (which we actually didn't have) that sealed the deal. That was because that is where the government was. They really didn't care about their people.
Quote:I also strongly reject the idea it was dropped out of racism. Partially because the original paln was to drop it on Berlin if need be, partially because it is wrong.
I agree. Maybe it's (what's the annoying phrase they use today) the optics of it.
It wasn't racist. It just SEEMED racist. We dropped it on Japan not Germany. But I know I know the bombs weren't completed before Germany surrendered while Japan had yet to do so.
Quote:But if you want some coaxing, before each drop, the US warned the Japanese government (who did nothing to evacuate) and dropped flyers telling civilians to leave the day before. Those attempts to save lives are not usually done when you view a group as sub-worthy of life or deserving of something.
I didn't know that detail. So good job.
Quote:Also you mentioned the Congolese, who very likely were also providing uranium for the A-bomb Japan was working on (I would have to double check, but I believe they were at least somewhat close).
I don't think the Japanese (or the Germans) were close to building the nuclear bomb. I think after the bomb was dropped there is a report that Heisenberg while imprisoned in the UK let it slip after Hiroshima that he didn't think Germany had enough nuclear fissile material to make it happen.
Of course if the Germans or Japanese were close to a nuclear bomb I doubt they would let the other know.
Quote:But as you said it was already a business. And by bringing up innocent people as you did, a very valid point, however that returns one of my points.
Quote:What of the people in internment camps? What of the people in occupied areas and their horrors? What of the comfort women? They were sex slaves, that would not be freed until the war ended.
Great points. The Japanese were committing atrocities.
Quote:If there is one thing Cap's morals dictate it the value of innocent life. And THEIR right to freedom. THEIR right to peace. Even if the price is disturbingly high. Admittedly, whether the price is fair is a matter of
Quote:And you are right he wouldn't know. He very likely would have known about Dresden, which was the same idea, just with lower murder-tech.
Quote:Honestly, I think the idea that he would sacrifice so much, just to hold onto his world view is selfish.
Quote:Now onto my points about Cap.
Quote:1. I think that Cap can justify it unfrozen, because he knows the horror it ended and understands it, but would also think if he had been unfrozen he could have found another way. But he wouldn't have, so...
Quote:2. If not frozen, and he DID find out about it, he would have accepted the necessity of it. I also believe he would not stay as Captain America.
Quote:After WWII the US began using its foreign policy to change society away from a third World War. Much of this was providing foreign aid to other countries (that is why it is currently part of our defense budget), the best examples being The Marshall Plan, dropping supplies to East Berlin as the Soviets tries to starve them in 47, and The Peace Corps.
Quote:Ironically, even Korea and Vietnam acted as ways to challenge a larger conflict.
Quote:Truman was one of the major proponents of this, having had dealing with Stalin and dropping the bombs as two of his first major choices as president. (He also tried to push civil rights harder, but most of it got stonewalled by Congress, just an interesting fact).
Quote:I think this is the route Steve would have chosen. An acceptance of what happened, but having been so shook, he chose more subtle ways to save the world, to PREVENT the next big war.
Quote:I know that it has become common place to cast Steve as a Soldier above all else, but I don't see him as such. I see him as most of what that generation's soldiers were, a man who did what he ha d to do, and will keep doing it as long as he has the responsibility, but more over someone who wants an end to the fighting and a nice quite life.
Quote:So, thoughts? opinions? Did I prove my larger point that this is a far more complex and twisty idea that those who tried to tackle it in comics gave it credit for? That if tou are going to do it, you REALLY need to let it breathe?
Yeah it's a complex issue.
Quote:This has been an interesting back and forth. Can I at least get that?
um...sure. I have taken no offense.
Well, unfortunately this is the internet so someone has to take offense. Therefore, I will be offended by my remarks. Where do I get off.
It was admittedly a long time ago I read about Japan's atomic bomb project, so I won't swear to anything involving it except that it existed.
This was a fun chat.