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Post By
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,108
In Reply To
Paladin

Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,117
Subj: Re: Systemic racism
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 03:45:50 pm EDT (Viewed 126 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Systemic racism
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 03:15:05 pm EDT (Viewed 125 times)



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            I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.

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            I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.

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                I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.

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                Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.

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                  For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.

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                    For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.

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                      A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.

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                        This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.

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                          The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.

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                              "Give an example of systemic racism."

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                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

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                                  Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.

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                              I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.

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                                It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.

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                                  I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.

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                                    The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.

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          Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race.

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        It was found to be based on race during investigations. As minority poor regions were exclusively targeted.



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    really? How did they determine that? Do they not do this to poor whites? I think most districts have unofficial quotas. If cops arent giving out tickets it looks like they arent doing their jobs.


In the example I gave the community is majority economically poor African American's. There is a more well off portion that is majority white.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/ferguson-police-racial-discrimination.html?mcubz=2

That is a summary article.


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    But I'll take your word on that (as I'm too lazy to check:-)


I linked an article so you would not have to. It at least covers the jist of it.


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          I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.

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            Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.

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          I guess I am a little like the interviewer, then. I have been told there are racist barriers in the institutions of the USA, so I just take that as a given. But when asked to give evidence I don't have any facts to quote, which is I guess what I was interested in.

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        There are but they are not quite as overt. For whatever reason we expect things to be as clear as say Jim Crow laws. They are not. It is harder to prove them now but it does not mean they are not there.

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            I don't agree or disagree (it's a subject I have no first-hand experience in), I was just interested if there was evidence beyond the anecdotal examples the interviewer (and yourself) have given. Basically I wanted to see if anyone had stats to counter Elder's. I mean its one thing to say stats are flawed but what else do you have to go on then? A feeling? Subtle racism that you know is there? your gut?

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            I have no first hand experience but have heard enough anecdotal evidence and enough somewhat valid statistics to make it questionable at the least.



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    I think Elder's point was that it is anecdotal. Which is why it doesnt stand up to scrutiny (or in court).


The court thing is a bit false. At least if I understand right. Even if a police officer does something wrong, it is hard to have them punished for this offense. Given the nature of the job etc. So, not sure it is a good measure.

It is not really anecdotal. As there are enough statistics available to make it clear that something is wrong. The jump that is harder to make is how do you prove that somebody was acting with racist intent?

Statistics can only give a glimpse into that, not be the end all be all. And this is part of the problem with the concept of racism etc. anyway.

I would argue that many of the counter points can also be anecdotal or cherry picked as well. Ironically, the cases of police shootings are often highly biased. I mean in the coverage and nature of them. There tends to be a bias in reporting on these sorts of things that can make them seem more common than they are. This is true of many things though.


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      I would need to listen through again to go point by point.



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    You don't have to. It was a fairly simple question. I was looking for someone to give a concrete example.


There are, the issue with them is. Somebody could potentially point to something else as an issue and argue them away. These are more subtle things and are not as easy to demonstrate causation.

I could link to articles covering examples and you could easily google and probably find an article that does not see racism anywhere in the US anymore.


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      You use the best representational numbers you can get with the understanding that the numbers are flawed. Any responsible analysis or anybody reporting on them has to make that clear. These sorts of things are not reported the same and that leads to problems with comparing apples to oranges.

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        One just needs to be very careful. Anybody coming off as knowing the absolute truth without acknowledging that material is not being honest.

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            I don't know, I was just looking for a clear answer to Elder's challenge.

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            I must have missed his challenge. He seemed like he was ranting more to me. Almost everything he was saying was highly slanted towards a conservative ideology.



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    That might have been part of the problem. You were dismissing him as a conservative so his stats don't matter. This seems to be the problem. Left and right aren't bothering to listen to each other because they are painting the other side with broad strokes.


That is not what I said if you read what I wrote above in the fullest. At one point I said he is taking the conservative ideological approach. Which does not make his stats better or worse, but it gives a slant to it and a warning of potential cherry picking.

When somebodies ideology is such than one should not accept it on face value. That is my point. The whole left or right thing is bull crap for the most part. If people would lay out a complete story and honestly address all the data, the flaws in it and the flaws and limitations of whatever system in question than there can be honest talk where ideology may inform.


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      That does not mean it is wrong, but it means that nothing should be taken for sure without review. I do not mean looking at both sides sources. Try to find reasonable sources and check it out.


I agree, all I am saying is that in this case we are only looking at a conservative point of view on this. From one person, with a sometimes questionable track record. Does that mean that he is in and of itself wrong?

Not at all, it does mean that one should not take it at face value. I have seen Bill O'Reily dress down people and make them look like idiots before. Does not mean he was right about it on the surface or wrong.

People accept too much. And we accept too much in general from individuals that are not necessarily experts in the area. This area is hardly settled in academic circles. Let alone public ones.


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    Again, I was looking at it from the interviewers perspective. If you put me on the spot, I probably would have had some vague (anecdotal) ideas and he was prepared to counter.


That is more a failure on the interviewers part than anything. That said, the interviewer may not be prepared to deal with a given individual. I am not saying this guy is right or wrong. This is not an issue that I am an expert on either.

All I am saying is that it is just as incorrect to accept it at face value.





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    thanks, nice article.



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    thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.


There are stats and graphs in the article. I am not sure what stats you are looking for.


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    I do feel there must be more to it that gut feelings and anecdotal evidence. But until it is demonstrated, I'll have to say Mr Elder has stats on his side.


Did you read the article I put up? What sort of stats are you looking for here and to prove what. Maybe I am unclear.

Also unclear as how you can brush off an article with stats as having no statistics.

Also review this and the studies linked to there in.

http://americablog.com/2015/05/institutional-racism-by-the-numbers.html

I am a little concerned that you can be so swayed from one interview and that is it though.




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