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Post By
Sumidor

Member Since: Sat Feb 25, 2017
Posts: 115
In Reply To
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,486
Subj: Re: Regarding that mess in Virginia
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 at 09:44:32 pm EDT (Viewed 93 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Regarding that mess in Virginia
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 at 02:00:52 pm EDT (Viewed 174 times)



    Quote:
    So...being surrounded by armed individuals with torches and starting the beating is a both sides do it situation?



    Quote:
    By almost all accounts, outside of Trump's and some fairly conservative ones, the violence seems to have overwhelming come from the white supremacists.


This just isn't true. Your comments in other posts in this thread show that you are not familiar with all the facts, and this post continues along the same lines.

This article from the LA Times demonstrates how unclear the whole situation is.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html

From the link, we should ignore those on the right blaming the left, and similarly ignore those on the left blaming the right. Those people are more likely to have an agenda behind their responses here. The quotes I am choosing are in no way meant to blame the counter protesters for starting the violence. I don't know that we'll ever have a clear picture how it started, and my opinion is that both groups came looking for violence. But the quotes I choose are meant to show that it was not so obviously one-sided as you believe.

- Jordan Green in the Nation, a leftist publication: “A phalanx of black-helmeted white supremacists — members of the Traditionalist Workers Party, Identity Evropa, American Vanguard, and other hate warriors — commanded the steps at the southeast corner of the park, repelling attempted incursions by Wobblies, communists, and a multiracial cast of irregulars eager to fight back. Water bottles and other projectiles flew in both directions, while police tear-gas canisters thudded into an adjacent parking lot, oftentimes lobbed back into the park by plucky leftists.”

So here we have someone on the left saying the attacks he witnessed were done by those on the left against white supremacists who were holding their ground in the park. Interesting how leftists who throw tear gas canisters at people are "plucky"!

- Leftist anti-fascist organizers from Washington, D.C.: “Before the attack occurred, we chased the Nazis out of their park, removing their platform. They were on the move toward a community with many people of color. We mobilized to intercept. We were at our most powerful, all of us together chanting with enthusiastic support from the people of Charlottesville. That was the moment that we were attacked.”

This is a confusing one, but the whole incident is confusing. But this is someone of the left stating they chased the nazis out of "their" park. So we had hate-filled idiots contained in a specific area where they had a permit, but the leftist chased them out. The counter protesters here appear to be the aggressors. But then he claims they were attacked, so this is a bit muddy.

- Redneck Revolt is mentioned as an armed leftist group that brought rifles.

- University of Virginia student Isabella Ciambotti: “I was on Market Street around 11:30 a.m. when a counter-protester ripped a newspaper stand off the sidewalk and threw it at alt-right protesters. I saw another man from the white supremacist crowd being chased and beaten. People were hitting him with their signs. A much older man, also with the alt-right group, got pushed to the ground in the commotion. Someone raised a stick over his head and beat the man with it, and that’s when I screamed and ran over with several other strangers to help him to his feet.”

This appears (we can't know 100%) to be an unconnected observer witnessing violence from the counter protesters.

From what I have managed to learn on the situation, there was no one single fight. Small skirmishes broke out in various locations. Maybe sometimes multiple small fights converged into a larger fight. It seems to be a big mess. But the view that only one side came armed, and only one side is responsible for the violence is simply not the truth.


    Quote:
    And it is not hard to find that in interviews either, many were looking to hurt more people and bragging about it.



    Quote:
    Violence is never good, but I feel that by saying everybody in this instance is equally bad is ignoring most news stories of the event and dignifying what the Neo-Nazi and similar groups were doing. I mean there were more of them and they were heavily armed but the other side swang back too.


Stating the truth about what happened is *NOT* dignifying neo-nazis. I am not ignoring "most new stories", but you seem to have missed quite a few. I've posted links to the NY Times, AP, LA Times, and have quoted a CNN reporter. It's not hard to find evidence of violence by the counter protesters from unbiased sources.


    Quote:
    I do not see a direct connection to the guy that shot the House Rep. It was deplorable too but was not part of an organized movement of violence and hate. He appeared to be a sick and twisted man but that was most of it.



    Quote:
    That there is now a debate to sort of dignify what happened with the both side thing in this instance seems a bit insulting to what the US should stand for.


The truth is insulting? We should ignore evidence, and we should ridicule the President for speaking truths that we don't want to hear? Whatever it is you're claiming the US stands for, that isn't it.


    Quote:
    That there are extreme liberal views or those that take them too far is true, but that is not really at the heart of this discussion at the moment or make it ok either. As a country we are also afraid to talk about far right domestic terrorism as well.



    Quote:
    I think the most disturbing thing is how the president has handled this. Calling out both sides and waiting ages to do it. He has no problem calling out immigrants or Muslims for things that an individual did or in some cases outright falsehoods but will not condemn anything done by those that even extensively fall under the same umbrella.



    Quote:
    That should scare everyone. And that some support what he is saying is scary.