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Post By
zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,289
In Reply To
Sumidor

Member Since: Sat Feb 25, 2017
Posts: 115
Subj: Re: This is my take
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 at 03:09:47 pm EDT (Viewed 120 times)
Reply Subj: Re: This is my take
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 at 06:10:11 pm EDT (Viewed 194 times)



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      Trump said, “You had a group on one side that was bad, and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. And nobody wants to say that, but I’ll say it right now.” That false equivalency is revealed as soon as you answer which side hit people with a car and killed someone from the other. Hint: it wasn’t the “very violent” side.



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    The fact that one hateful person one side proved to be more deadly does not change the fact that both sides were violent.


Again, you're equivocating between the two as if the violence were equal. The violence was definitely not equal. And you somehow want to exempt "one hateful person" as if otherwise the white supremacists were okay or at least as okay as those protesting against them.


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    Neither article is from what anyone could consider a right-wing source, yet both frame the two groups similar to Trump.



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    The AP story says "Adversaries fought", and they "beat each other with clubs". There is no weight of blame placed on the pro-nazi group. Similarly the Times story places no weight of blame on the pro-nazi group. And they recognize the frequent violence of Antifa.


Wow, this is taking these news stories completely out of context. The AP and NYT focused these stories on the counter protesters amidst a lot of stories about both sides, and if you didn't cherry pick, you'd would acknowledge that the coverage blamed the alt-right more. Actually, you do that later in your post, so you're contradicting yourself.


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    That Antifa is very violent is a fact. That there was violence on both sides is a fact.


You're trying to excuse Trump exactly the way I said Trump defenders do, by proclaiming that technically something Trump said is true without understanding what that truth means.


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      Trump has called out everyone under the sun by name when he wants to lambast them. He criticized Obama for not using the words “Islamic terrorism.” Trump never minces words unless he’s purposefully equivocating. What is he equivocating here? Racist hatemongers and their protesters when he says that “many sides” are to blame for the violence in Charlottesville and he emphasized the words “many sides” by repeating them.



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      On a very technical level, that’s true. If protesters weren’t there, they wouldn’t have clashed with the racists. If Heather Heyer had not been there, an alt-right neo-Nazi would not have killed her. But she was there and she was killed. Is she responsible or is James Fields, Jr., the man who purposefully ran her over with a car? Trump thinks both Heyer and Fields are to blame!



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    It is disgusting to say that Trump put any blame on Heather Heyer. The different sides Trump referres to is to the hateful nazi group, and to the Antifa group.


Trump's exact words are "You had a group on one side that was bad, and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. And nobody wants to say that, but I’ll say it right now." He doesn't separate Heather Heyer there. He didn't even speak her name. That's how important she was to him.


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      Trump’s blaming both sides is only important if the message he’s trying to convey is a wink to the white supremacists who helped put Trump in office that he is sympathetic to them. And this is exactly how many white supremacists have interpreted it.



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    Incorrect. Trump's blaming both sides is important to anyone interested in the truth of what happened that day.


It's important to the white supremacists that the President of the United States is putting them on even moral footing with those protesting against them and you're siding with them on that here.


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      Former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke responded, “Thank you President Trump for your honesty and courage to tell the truth.” White nationalist leader Richard B. Spencer wrote, “Trump’s statement was fair and down to earth.” Chuck Schumer fittingly remarked, “By saying he is not taking sides, Donald Trump clearly is. When David Duke and white supremacists cheer, you’re doing it very, very wrong.”



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    I've mentioned in previous posts that the faults of individuals should not be placed on the politicians they support. Seddique Mir Mateen, the father of Omar Mateen, who shot up the Orlando nightclub, was a big Hillary supporter. He also supports the Taliban. Should we make a connection between the Mateens and Hillary which puts their beliefs on her? No, we shouldn't.


No, we shouldn't WHEN those politicians aren't supporting them as is the case with Hillary you mention. Do you understand the mental gymnastics you had to undergo to try to make that false analogy? Neither Mateen attribute their stances to Hillary nor did Hillary ever make sympathetic statements toward them. Trump is clearly enabling white supremacists with his equivocation and his entire racist approach to campaigning and governing. Are you seriously going to tell me that Trump doesn't race bait?


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    Robert Byrd was also a member of the KKK and Hillary Clinton's mentor. Bill Clinton excused Byrd's membership in that ugly organization by saying he did it just to get elected. Is spouting ugly racist slogans and recruitment for the KKK okay as long as it gets you elected as a democrat? The Clintons seem to think so. The outrage regarding KKK supporters is strangely one-sided.


Robert Byrd should be condemned for his affiliation with the KKK. Trump should be condemned for his equivocation with the KKK.


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    William Fulbright has been cited by Bill Clinton as one of his mentors. Hillary's name shares the title of the "J. William Fulbright-Hillary Rodham Clinton Public Policy Fellowship". Fulbright was a horrible racist who opposed Hawaii statehood due to the non-white inhabitants. He also not only signed the Southern Manifesto, he helped edit it. Yet the Clintons get a pass here again. I'm not claiming guilt by association. I'm not saying the Clintons are racists because they freely associate with many racists, but that seems to be your logic.


Nope, you're engaging in a complete straw man argument. The Clintons never praised Fulbright for his racism. The alt-right praises Trump for his.


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    I propose we keep conversations to the direct people being discussed, and not try to paint people with sins of associates or supporters.


This is so disingenuous. Trump is associated with the sins of his supporters because he does things that they like that are directly related to their sins.


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      That Trump even took two days to denounce the white nationalists who lauded his name at the Charlottesville rally speaks volumes. Republican Senator Orrin Hatch tweeted, “We should call evil by its name. My brother didn’t give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home.” But it’s clear now that Trump’s denunciation of white supremacists on Monday was forced upon him by staff, that he resented it,



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    It's not clear that it was forced upon him or that he resented that. You don't know that. You're simply making things up. If I'm wrong, provide evidence. I'm looking for evidence, not what you think or feel. Otherwise this is no different than birthers claiming they "know" Obama's sympathies are with muslim terrorists. Your're trafficing in the same style personal attacks.


Here's your evidence:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/us/politics/trump-charlottesville-white-nationalists.html?mcubz=0

After a storm of criticism over his remarks, Mr. Trump’s aides persuaded him to moderate his message by assigning explicit blame for the violence to far-right agitators, which led to a stronger denunciation of hate groups — emailed to reporters and attributed to an unnamed “spokesperson.”

When that failed to quell the controversy, aides, including Mr. Trump’s new chief of staff, John F. Kelly, pressed him to make another public statement. Mr. Trump’s daughter Ivanka and son-in-law, Jared Kushner, urged him to take a more moderate stance, according to two people familiar with the situation. But as with so many other critical moments in Mr. Trump’s presidency, the two were on vacation, this time in Vermont.

Grudgingly, Mr. Trump agreed.


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      he couldn’t keep that bottled in and went on his tirade yesterday. The message is clear. The context – Obama birtherism, Mexican rapists, the Muslim ban, the transgender ban, the wall – is clear. Trump’s only defense is to engage in the vagueness of plausible deniability. For any other contemporary president, this would have been a no-brainer. Other Republicans like Jeff Flake, Cory Gardner, Lindsay Graham, Will Hurd, John Kasich, John McCain, Jerry Moran, and Marco Rubio all criticized Trump by name for his reaction.



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      Trump defenders can only talk about how some of what he said was technically true while completely missing the spirit of what he said.



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    The spirit of what he said? I think this is a little like the three blind men and the elephant. I heard him say:



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    - "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides." You may not like that he places blame for violence on both the nazi group and Antifa, but he certain condemned hatred and bigotry. Why is that ignored?



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    - "No matter our color, creed, religion or political party, we are all Americans first."



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    - "we want to see what we’re doing wrong as a country, where things like this can happen."



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    - "We have to respect each other. Ideally, we have to love each other."



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    - "I love the people of our country. I love all of the people of our country."

That Trump loves all of the people of our country is a lie on the face of it. He tweets about people he hates all the time. Trump only loves his immediate family and himself most of all. And Trump WAS praised for issuing this statement however belatedly with his poor excuses, but then he effectively took it all back when he went on his subsequent rant. You absolutely don't seem to get that because you always de-contextualize Trump in trying to exonerate him.


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    The way the speech has been reported it's as if he didn't say any of that.


Because it became clear that he didn't believe it! Well, it was clear to many already, but Trump made it even more clear.


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    As if all he did was include Antifa in his blame of the violence. But that was only a small part. Much of the speech was about love and uniting as a country.


See, this is what I mean about Trump supporters only seeing the literal and technical but missing the tone and the form and the context.


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    There was outrage that he blamed both sides for the violence. Many people wanted him to call out the nazi group specifically, and so in his following speech he did. And in that speech he said:



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    - "We must love each other, show affection for each other and unite together in condemnation of hatred, bigotry and violence. We must rediscover the bonds of love and loyalty, that bring us together as Americans."



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    - "Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the K.K.K., neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."



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    - "We are a nation founded on the truth that all of us are created equal. We are equal in the eyes of our creator."



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    - "we will work together so that every citizen in this blessed land is free to follow their dreams, in their hearts, and to express the love and joy in their souls."



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    Yet still, you want to believe Trump is racist. I'm guessing nothing will convince you otherwise.


I know Trump is a racist because of his entire history! Of course he's going to deny it, and of course only after reluctantly being forced to do so. Are you going to deny he engaged in the race baiting lie that is Obama birtherism? That he generalized Mexican immigrants as rapists? That he called for a Muslim ban and then doubled down on it as ban to his judicial detriment? That he denied even knowing who David Duke was when he did? That Trump said an American judge couldn't be unbiased because of his Mexican heritage? Trump and his father’s company have a long history of racial discrimination in renting out their properties. Trump called for the execution of the Central Park Five, 1 Hispanic and 4 black youths, who were accused of raping a jogger. Even after DNA evidence exonerated them after years of false imprisonment and another man confessed to it and DNA evidence confirmed it, Trump still claims they are guilty as late as 2016. Trump once said, "I’ve got black accountants at Trump Castle and at Trump Plaza – black guys counting my money. I hate it. The only guys I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes all day."


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      Some other Republicans get this. Republican Rep, Ed Royce, wrote, “The President needs to clearly and categorically reject white supremacists. No excuses. No ambiguity.” Jeb Bush wrote, “I urge POTUS to unite the country, not parse the assignment of blame for the events in Charlottesville.” Mitch McConnell stated, “There are no good neo-Nazis, and those who espouse their views are not supporters of American ideals and freedoms.” Mitt Romney tweeted, “No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.”



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    I reject the simplistic idea that anyone who engages in violence against those with nazi beliefs is automatically morally different. The biggest nazi killer in history was Joseph Stalin. Are we to glorify Stalin for being against nazis? Are we to say that Hitler and Stalin are in "morally different universes"? Both were evil men. Is my saying "Both were evil men" a pro-nazi statement?


This is such an absurd analogy I'm incredulous. Now antifa is Stalin. Stalin should be commended for fighting the Nazis in World War II. That doesn't mean he wasn't as bad as Hitler in other ways! In the context of apportioning blame for World War II, if I said that there was violence on both sides in World War II, what do you think I'm implying to you?

But I get it. I don't like antifa and I disapprove of their methods, but willingness to resist violent neo-Nazis and white supremacists with violence, while lamentable, is still morally better than BEING violent neo-Nazis and white supremacists. You disagree. You think there's no moral differentiation. I think that makes you either a racist or someone who is so blind in his devotion to Trump that you will rationalize anything he says.


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    Individuals should be judged individually. Just because Antifa were against the nazi group does not make Antifa "good guys".


But protesting against neo-Nazis makes them better than neo-Nazis! They are not equal! Trump was equating them.


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      Even if a few Southerners don’t see statues of Confederate leaders and generals as racist, that’s an extreme degree of compartmentalizing. These Confederates fought to uphold slavery. That’s is their claim to fame and they shouldn’t be honored for that. Aside from the rare neo-Nazi, you don’t see Germans clamoring for Hitler statues even though Hitler is part of their heritage. Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis committed treason, they were traitors to their country, their actions in the Civil War led to the deaths of thousands upon thousands, and they tried to perpetuate slavery, the most abhorrent institution ever established in the United States of America. Why should that be honored? Also note that most of these statues and monuments were erected between 1900 and 1930, the era of Jim Crow laws, and again between 1956-1965, the era of the civil rights movement. These were times when racial conflict was highest and the messaging behind these monuments is white supremacy.



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      Trump said there were “very fine people on both sides,” which is a purely subjective claim that can’t be proven, but again, it clearly sends a positive message to the white supremacists. Anyone’s willingness to march alongside the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis chanting “Sieg Heil” and “Blood and Soil” and “Jews will not replace us” while carrying swastikas calls into question where their moral compass lies. Here are some examples of the hate on display at that rally:



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      https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/16/16155942/charlottesville-protests-nazis-vice



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      Trump’s insinuation that George Washington is under attack because Robert E. Lee is under attack is about as disingenuous as James Woods implying that the Marine Corps War Memorial is the equivalent of Robert E. Lee statues in the eyes of the left.



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    It is not disingenuous. Proposals for such things are happening here:



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    http://earhustle411.com/local-bishop-calls-chicago-mayor-remove-george-washingtons-name-removed-black-neighborhood-park/



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    And here:



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    http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SF-official-suggests-taking-slaveholders-names-9206217.php



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    Where George Washington is not "relevant or meaningful".



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    It seems Trump is right. Will you admit that for this one case?


So you found two people who want to remove George Washington's name. There are crazy people on the left and right who have all sorts of crazy stances. There is no significant movement on the left to remove George Washington monuments. These two people are not representative of a movement.


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      George Washington owned slaves in a time in which that was acceptable and he freed his slaves in his will. George Washington signed the Slave Trade Act of 1794 to curb the slave trade, and he did not actively fight to sustain slavery as an institution when times had changed to make slavery an even graver moral issue. A George Washington statue is not implicitly pro-slavery any more than it’s pro-dentures. It’s to celebrate Washington’s part in the American Revolution and creating the United States of America. A Robert E. Lee statue is implicitly pro-slavery. What are you celebrating about him if not that? That’s what he fought for, that’s what he’s known for, and he’d be an afterthought to history had he not done so.



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    Trump didn't equate Robert E. Lee to George Washington. You are making a false argument. Trump stated that the current movement to get rid of Confederate statues would eventually lead to similar attacks against Washington and Jefferson. As shown above, he was absolutely, provably right.


Nope. There were people who wanted monuments to Washington removed even before Charlottesville. There absolutely is no current movement to remove George Washington monuments around the country. Again, you cite two people and you think Trump is by the barest technicality correct on something and so he's correct about everything. Wrong.


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      Let’s face it, we have a Racist in Chief now.



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    Let's face it....your personal attacks and name calling are on the level of those who called Obama "muslim in chief". Name calling is childish and immature.


Calling Trump a racist is not a personal attack, it's an accurate description. For once, you can't say this is only a take on Trump by liberals or attack the liberal media like you usually do. This is the bipartisan take. Half of the notable leaders of the Republican Party have spoken out and condemned Trump for this. In addition to all the context I listed above, which you ignore about Trump, there's his blocking funding that fights white supremacist groups:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/charlottesville-latest-donald-trump-slashed-funds-groups-fighting-white-supremacy-rally-riot-a7894271.html