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Post By
MysteryMan

Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 932
In Reply To
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,494
Subj: Re: Mixed feelings...
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 at 11:18:00 am EDT (Viewed 115 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Mixed feelings...
Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 at 12:24:06 pm EDT (Viewed 117 times)



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            Just wondering about everyone's position here.

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              While I sympathize with (Kaepernick's) initial reasoning, I'm not sure I agree with kneeling. Whatever social niggles the US has, the flag and National Anthem are as much to honor those who fought and/or died for the country.

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                That said, my opinion shifted once Trump weighed in. A President suggesting people be fired (i.e. punished) for kneeling during the National Anthem makes it a direct case of government interfering with freedom of speech, something those same soldiers fought and died defending.

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            I find it hard to feel for these rich millionaires and their complaints that THEY are mistreated. The same guys who are basically paid to play a game all through college while the rest of us have to actually work for our grades.

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          I am confused as to why this has a barring on if they have been mistreated in the past or know people who are. They have a platform where they can be noticed and they chose to. That is their right.

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        I am questioning their motives and "lack" of standing up for the injustices THEY have benefitted from.



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    Such as? But you are willing to accept the hypocrisy for the side condemning them? Trump for instance does not have legs to stand on with anything regarding the troops.


Straw man argument. Where did I say I accepted such hypocrisy?

Straw man argument 2. Where did I say anything remotely like he hada leg to stand on?


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        They could be fired for it too, but they are within their rights. I just think you are mixing loads of issues that have no barring here.

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        I pretty flatly stated it was within their rights. Not mixing anything.



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    Yes you are, you are bringing up money and other things that have no barring on the matter.


Money/power plays a part in everything sadly.


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          No this isn't a conspiracy theory a large percentage of athletes are given many special "privileges" etc...

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          Yes, but what does that have to do with what is happening here?

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        Their motives as I said above...they are self-motivated. They are hypocrites benefitting from the system and using this for self-promotion. But they sure wouldn't stand up against their own unfair advantageous treatment.



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    This is a fair bit of accusation. We know that this happens, but we do not know to the level you are implying here.


It's rampant and has been going on for decades. The news reports on just such things from time to time.


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    What are they getting out of this? They are getting hammered by people and so on. Originally it was just a few guys. They were gripped at but largely ignored. Trump made a comment and they all did it out of unity.


So you think they are getting nothing out of it? Truly?
For every person ripping on them is another like you defending them.


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    I just fail to see the crux of your argument at all. As everything you are saying can be turned easily on those criticizing them. I mean the people gripping at them are not saying much most of the time about that sort of thing anyway, they watch them play. Help pay their salaries and so on.


And they have a lot of people backing them. Heck its pretty safe to badmouth the president...get some great press and people talking about you and look like a hero to those who hate Trump. There is a lot to be gained...and yes they will lose from his supporters.

I don't see what's so hard to understand though, my argument is simply they are motivated by self interest not some altruistic motives.


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    Again, you are mixing various issues together. I am not sure why you do not see that. That they may have had advantageous treatment is not an issue with this. Unless you want to turn it on everything else too. In which case most people and individuals are hypocrites. Flat out.


Sometimes issues are intertwined...news flash. The world is not black and white. \:\)

They have had massive advantageous treatment...this is extremely prevalent starting at least at college if not well before.


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          That said...this kind of protest is a very peaceful one and they have every right to do so (and if they suffer commercial contract losses they should not complain). And they have every right to continue to do so. I am curious where this requirement of a national anthem at all sporting events even comes from in the first place. The Olympics? If so is a bunch of millionaires playing for a bunch of billionaires something we should even play the anthem at?

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            As for Trump...as sick as I am of the media attacking him like rabid dogs over every single thing he does...he's an idiot and his statements here prove it. If he had just said something along the lines of..."They have the right to do this. I feel it is wrong and diminishes those who fight for their very right to protest like this...but it is their right nonetheless." I think he would have a lot more agreement...instead we get a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum.

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          I am more sick of those up in arms about this but not as up in arms about other crimes in the NFL. Ray Rice was on video knocking his girlfriend/wife out cold and draggin her out of the elevator. Where were these Patriotic Defense Warriors then?

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        I agree 100%. But this also includes these players...where were they when this happened? They like pointing the finger but never at themselves.



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    Yet you give a pass to the holier than thou viewer who jumps at a chance like this to boycot but not over rape, assault, dog fighting and so on? Isn't that hypocritical of those throwing criticism and starting the whole thing? Trump in particular is the biggest of all and leading this holier than all charge.


Straw man argument 3. Where is the pass I gave? Please show me where I said..."I give a pass to the holier than thou viewer "insert viewer"?

Straw man argument 4. Where did I say it's ok to "rape, assault, dog fighting and so on?" Did you miss the part (which you even alluded to earlier) where I accuse them of getting unfair advantages?

Trump is an petulant child. They often have a holier than though attitude...it seems you missed that part too.


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    Some players have, maybe not enough. However, you are focusing soley on the blame in these issues on one side. The whole thing would not be happening at all if our president just stayed the crap out of things that do not concern him.


Thank you for saying what I already said and then acting like you said it first.


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    A few players were doing it, most of them did it as unity against what he said. Remember, the guy who said there were good people at a white supremacists rally but called kneeling NFL players SOBs.


Well technically he didn't say all football players were SOB's which would be an equivalent statement, but why do you keep acting like you are pointing out to me that what Trump said was moronic when I said this in my initial post? This is rather bad form in a discussion adding to the 4 straw man arguments you have made so far.


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        IMO, Trump should be attacked all of the time. His administration is basically, with or without the media, changing US politics for the worst. Just keep telling lies and expecting everybody to believe you. His base and supporters will believe and defend every lie anyway.

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          The toxicity is probably beyond recovery at this point.

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        All the time? Really? That's...rather single minded. He should just be attacked regardless of what he says? That's why he will stay in power. Attacking EVERYTHING all the time...will at the very least portray you as even less rational than he is.



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    You have the uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to. He deserves to be attacked all of the time because he is always and doing something worthy of it. He and his administration are constantly lying and hurting people.


You accuse me of not getting your point (uncanny ability to only hear/read what you want to)...then restate exactly what I understood yet again..."He deserves to be attacked all of the time". Can you see the problem with this?

No one is ALWAYS doing something worthy of being attacked. He is a buffoon and a moron in many ways, but he is not wrong about every single thing.

If you believe he is always 100% wrong about every single thing...that is by at least close approximation of the definition of Fanaticism.


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    That you seem to want to gloss over most of it for only the big stuff is just enabling and saying that the other stuff is not a big deal.



I could say you gloss over the things he sometimes does that are actually positive. Whereas I see he does BOTH. Far far far too much negativity and wrong. But I am sure in your reply you will "gloss" over this.


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    As I have told you many times in other threads, a few down. Those that voted for Trump are the only ones responsible here. They made their choice knowing full well what sort of monster he was and believing his lies.


You can tell me as many times as you like and you will be wrong that many more times. They are a large PART of the reason of course. The other is the opposing party put a terrible candidate forward, that they have turned deaf ears on the needs of large segments of the people who actually VOTE whereas Trump pandered to them.

I also find it funny...how you say people believed his lies but voted for him anyways...huh? what?

So which is it?

Are they evil deplorables who voted for Trump the monster?
or
Were they duped?

You seem to accuse them of both in the same breath but these 2 don't mix well.


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    Sad part is, more American's did not vote for him.


It's because we are a representative Democracy and not a true Democracy.


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