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Post By
Trent Trueheart

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 584
In Reply To
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,937
Subj: Re: A liberals journalists "constructive" view of whats wrong with his party...
Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 at 01:25:02 am EST (Viewed 93 times)
Reply Subj: Re: A liberals journalists "constructive" view of whats wrong with his party...
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 at 01:38:01 pm EST (Viewed 102 times)



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        I think they should be able to make their case wherever. I think the issue I have with many of these "deabtes" is even if evidence is lacking. Folks do not really change their mind too often.

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        Agreed. The problem is further complicated by the fact that Trump doesn't really represent an ideology, much less an ideology that can be defended. He is aligned with some very ugly political entities, but he himself is more of an opportunist at best, brute authoritarian at worst.

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            This is true for Trump supporters or really most supporters of anything that they value. People rarely if ever change their minds. In particularly, most people react to facts counter to their beliefs by doubling down.

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            There are basically two or three methods of changing opinion on a large scale. Public shaming (making a behavior so socially toxic that it isn't openly engaged in; e.g. racism), and winning the argument through tangible policy results. A third method would be violence and war (see Civil War).



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    I would quibble a bit. While shaming makes some things seem not ok, we also have a counter push that such things should be ok and acceptible now. Not everybody is screaming for racism, but it is working its way in. And one can make various cases for racism lite.



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    Policy results CAN end a debate but not always. Just consider Roe vs Wade or the ACA. All one has to do is stoke ideological fear and it does not matter what the initial ruling or law was. Or if it works or is ok. Policy works both ways.



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    The only way I have found is if somebody has not really taken much of a side or interest. They are willing to hear things out most of the time. The other that helps with leeway, at least with some of my Trump supporting family, is in specific areas.



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    If having a discussion on climate change for instance. Dispel notions by first going through what the scientific method is and is not. That it works and then what they have found under it. This has not changed minds in my experience, but it at least sews a seed that it is not all conspiracy based and lies of the liberal media. They are more willing to buy that it is happening.



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    However, it is often hard to have a discussion that long. And have the patients to endure some of the questions that fire out of somebodies mouth. Often insulting you, myself in the example, in the process.


I recently listened to Kevin Smith talk to Megan Phelps-Roper on Smodcast and she talked about what got her to leave the Westboro Baptist Church. She mentioned that those that spewed hate at her on Twitter just made her beliefs stronger. She credits a few people who were willing to engage her on social media were able to make her question her beliefs. She also mentioned that you have to know how someone thinks in order to make the arguments that will change their mind. She has a TED talk where she probably explains it better.

That said, it sounds like a lot of work and very frustrating.


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      Actually changing opinion via discussion is difficult, especially when everyone is now entitled to their own facts. No one can agree on a baseline.

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        There are entities actively trying to make racism and ethnic bigotry socially acceptable, and I don't hesitate to demonize them. The argument cannot be won through debate.

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            Ironically, and I am picking on Trump supporters because I remember the polls, while many Trump supporters know he is lying. They do not care. What does one do to counter such things? It is not a lack of information at that point. It is a lack of caring and an indifference. So long as it is their guy.

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            Trump has lowered the bar for what is acceptable in politics, and that is why the push-back is so extreme.



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