Fantastic Four: TWGCM >> View Post
Post By
Chris Tolworthy

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,416
In Reply To
Ancient One

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,430
Subj: Re: Part 2.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 at 10:05:30 pm EST (Viewed 94 times)
Reply Subj: Part 2.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 at 07:16:10 pm EST (Viewed 101 times)

Previous Post

1) "But the “equitorial” typo is not like that. A letterer just copies, he does not check grammar or spelling".

Seriously? Part of your case is that letterers are illiterate?

In an incident like the 'Bob Banner' one, yes, I'd be 90% certain that it was down to the writer. Letterers go from book to book and my not know what all the characters' names are. But in the case of simple mis-spellings (And in the Super-Man case), it could have been anyone. Writer, artist/plotter or letter. Definitively pinning the blame on Lee for typos comes across as a rather cynical attempt to apportion every single piece of blame for every single thing that can possibly go wrong in the production process on one man.

Page 15 is printed upside down? It's Lee's fault. If he'd only put arrows on the page!!! Staples off center? If only Lee had hired a better printer... and so on.

2) "The final two panels break a principle of good design (known as the “180 degree rule” in cinematography): a character who is on the left in one shot should not be on the right in the next shot as if the camera has flipped over".

Even if Lee HAD edited the scene that way, it doesn't make any difference to the narrative. And again, pinning the blame definitively on Lee is impossible. You even unwittingly provide an example of Kirby himself committing the same 'error' later in your paper (See attachment 2). And you can't blame Lee at all for that one. He had nothing to do with Captain Victory.

3)"Iron Man is clearly based on an earlier Kirby character, Metallo, in Action Comics 252".

Kirby didn't create Metallo. That was Robert Bernstein and Al Plastino. And they created him in 1959, a time when Kirby couldn't and wouldn't work for DC due to the Sky Masters conflict.

4) The creation of the X-Men.

Going by your assessments of the creation of Fantastic Four and Hulk, you seem to be seeing the creative process between Lee and Kirby as: Lee would say 'Give me a new book'. Kirby would then go off and create the story and pencils singlehanded, and Lee would merely dialogue and edit. And you seem to imply strongly they used the same method on X-Men. If so then your whole piece comes across as self contradictory, and nothing more than another hatchet job on Lee.

You claim Kirby had no need to swipe ideas from competitors, and I'd fully agree with that. You make the claim that Kirby took his ideas for a team of mutants from earlier stories he'd done. Okay, all well and good. But then you also claim that Lee probably swiped the ideas for X-Men from DC's Doom Patrol and fed those ideas to Kirby. Which makes no sense. How could Lee possibly do that if Kirby was presenting him with practically finished books?

So EITHER Lee created X-Men and Kirby worked out the details, OR Kirby created X-Men based on his own ideas, and Lee is not guilty of plagiarism. It has to be either one or the other but Again, you seem hell bent on attributing everything good to Kirby and everything bad to Lee, no matter how implausible or impossible the scenario. And as there's not one scrap of solid evidence for anything you assert in this chapter, the whole exercise appears to be nothing more than character assassination.

5) "When working for Lee, Kirby and Ayers (his frequent inker) tried to put their names very discretely on the cover and the splash page, but as noted before, Lee had their names painted over. Lee occasionally let a cover signature pass, until the month before Fantastic Four was released (covers dated October 1961). From that point Lee never allowed cover signatures again. Probably the last example of a cover signature before the ban is from Rawhide Kid 122".

This simply isn't true. Attached is the cover to Two-Gun Kid #67, from 1964, with Kirby and Ayers' signatures clearly in evidence. Artists like Al Hartley and Stan Goldberg signed practically every cover they did - or a good many of them at any rate. Don Heck's signature is on Tales to Astonish #49, and Ditko's is on Amazing Spider-Man #9, amongst others. We seem to be getting deeper into the realms of conspiracy theory as we go along.

Okay, so it's late, and I need to get some sleep.

More tomorrow.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Much appreciated. I'm making a revised version that will fix a lot of these problems, and be a little less angry' \:\) Hopefully get that done tomorrow.

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