Quote:My MAIN problem with Fraction's run was Castle killing the girl. The rest...It's just a matter of artistic tastes and interpretations but there was no reason to show me a Frank Castle who kills a girl and doesn't own up to it which means TURNING HIMSELF IN. One panel that destroyed EVERYTHING the character stood for. I can flinch on many other things, but I won't budge my opinion for that scene. It's a comic book, not 19th century litterature. If I don't see a panel of Castle having a nightmare or whatever, I assume he shrugged it off. I don't expect subtlety from a Punisher comic. It's there. He killed that girl. I was hoping he only knocked her out, faked it...It was really disheartening to me when I realized he did this. And I also realized that it would lead to Stuart vs Castle. Recycling Frank vs Microchip from Countdown.
Did Castle turn himself in when he was set up to believe he had killed a family in Central Park all those years ago? My recollection was that he was detained but didnt throw himself at the mercy of the authorities. If thats the case then I dont see how Frank not handing himself in on this occasion is any different. I know ultimately on the first occasion he hadn actually killed anyone, but he *believed* he had - so why didnt he hand himself in? That occasion was arguably worse than Fractions example as Frank was in control and had just been careless.
Additionally, whilst it was a MAX title, Frank was also convinced that he had killed an innocent in the 'Girls with White Dresses' arc. He felt bad about it for sure, but he didnt hand himself in to face conventional justice.
Quote:Punisher not killing supervillains: notice I didn't write KNOWN villains. To me, Fractions HATE MONGER story had the potential to show Castle killing dozens of deserving scum. I know the Punisher will never do anything of consequence ever in the Marvel U...Maybe Hate Monger could have been a longer nemessis. Or Fraction could have created some villains for Frank to kill. That would have been FINE BY ME. Or Z-grade villains. Fine by me. I was more hopeful of Frank having an impact then because how it was sold to us, but I could have lived with made up villains and clones and drones...Nameless mooks...Just not innocent girls while being brainwashed. That...left a sour taste.
But Frank DID kill the Hatemonger AND a bunch of henchmen AND Stiltman AND a load of villain in the Bar With No Name (until it was retconned) AND the Plunderer AND Goldbug AND some aliens in the WWH tie-in - all in the space of a dozen issues. Plenty of 'mooks' both named and unnamed.
I'm actually struggling to think of another run of a dozen issues with a higher bodycount actually.
Quote:All I want now from a Punisher comic, 616 or Max (not even Ultimate or 2099): cold, methodical Frank and zero collateral damage. No flash, no shock, just solid storytelling. Castle doesn't matter in the larger universe? Fine. I'm at peace with Frank not being important. I'm happy having Castle in a niche, killing nameless MGH dealers, butting heads with DD and SPIDEY, etc. I don't need to have my mind blown, I just don't want my favorite character soiled anymore by writers who don't really CARE about him or his history.
In light of the fact that the difficulties in fully intergrating the Punisher into the Marvel Universe - almost entirely the result of Marvels reluctance to let him kill anyone - then I too would rather have a solid street level title with Frank taking on and disposing of organised crime, like Ruckas run.
Those issues in COUNTDOWN? Yes, he was turning himself in. He was intercepted by Fisk's thugs, but he was heading to a police station and was going to turn himself in. "It ends like it began, with the blood of innocents." That story ended with Castle facing Shotgun: "I should be easy to take down." He was going to accept Punishment.
That MAX issue, by Hurwitz, he was on the verge of suicide, but then he thought of doing his won autopsy and it exonorated him.
Turn himself in, killing himself, bottom line, any version of Frank Castle I give a damn about has him willing to put himself down or out of the game if he kills innocent people. Any story you can think of when he killed innocent people by his own hand-if there are that many of those-and just walked away, is probably a story I hate or would hate. Dixon, Grant, Baron, Potts have none of those. There are doubts about Ennis MAX (that Boat Castle blew up in BARRACUDA, a story I hated.)
HATEMONGER ARC: Take out that huge turd stain that was that girl's death-which Castle didn't own up to-I could have liked it a bit more. I didn't even mind the Cap uniform. Makes sense to me that all of the service men in the Marvel U would look up to CAP. Most of the wetwork was done by Bridge and Stuart. Not a problem. I always cheered outloud when that Bar was blown up...Until I read about the SHE-HULK retcon. And STILT-MAN's death was the reason why I was somewhat hopeful...I started HATING the series after and dropped it before its cancellation.
I was having a discussion over the movie, PUNISHER WAR ZONE. I can hate the movie for its style and depiction of the characters...But Castle being a cop killer and, again, letting himself off the hook is what I can NEVER forgive. Same for Fraction. I can forgive the goofy humour and stuff...EVERYTHING. You can tear apart all of my points and make me change my mind. EXCEPT that girl's death and Castle not taking responsability.