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Post By
Reverend Meteor

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,065
In Reply To
Menshevik

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,994
Subj: Re: Thomas and Englehart
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 at 12:36:43 pm EST (Viewed 98 times)
Reply Subj: Thomas and Englehart
Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 at 11:19:48 am EST (Viewed 89 times)






    Quote:
    It would be nice if someone could provide statements from Steve Englehart and Roy Thomas on the matter, but it does not seem likely to me that this is what happened. Englehart had been collaborating with Roy Thomas until shortly before the relevant issue (Avengers #134) as Thomas was editor of that title through most of Englehart's run right up until #132. So there is a certain probability that Thomas and Englehart had already discussed Englehart's plot outline for #134 when Thomas made way for the new editor, Len Wein.



    Quote:
    Not only that, Roy Thomas had not just edited all those issues, he had also scripted the last two stories he edited (Avengers #132 and Giant-Size Avengers #3, both shipped with a February 1975 cover date) over Englehart's plots. And whom do we find in Avengers #131 and #132 as well as GSA #3? Kang, Rama-Tut and Immortus (Immortus revealed that he was the future persona of the other two in GSA #3) as well as the Golden Age Human Torch (forming part of Kang's Legion of the Unliving along with, among others, Wonder Man). So in effect Englehart in #134 provides the payoff for something Thomas had helped set up himself as editor and writer.



    Quote:
    Also, let's look back to something earlier. In Avengers #93, written by Roy Thomas and edited by Stan Lee, Henry Pym undertakes his journey to the inside of the inert Vision in order to get him going again. In one brief scene he is shown reacting with shock to something that he discovers on the way. Something the readers are not shown. This was later not unsatisfyingly explained as evidence that the Vision's body is that of the original Human Torch. Now here's the question: if it wasn't that, what else could Roy Thomas (the well-known Golden Age aficionado) have intended here?


I think that's a bit of a reach. Jim's body should have looked more or less human. That's what Horton's plan was for Jim...for all his systems to more or less look organic. When Hank reaches Vision's chest plate he says it looks like Fritz Lang's 1927 movie Metropolis.

Byrne seized on that when he made his retcon in Avengers West Coast #48 by having Phineas Horton say that Jim's body was made of artificial organs (presumably plastics) and not mechanical parts (Horton said Vision was a mix of artificial organs and mechanical parts). Hank postulates in Avengers West Coast #50 that Ultron used Hortons molds and the chemicals he used to create the Human Torch (and triggered Frankie's powers) to create Vision. The level of complexity Hank saw in Vision's body should be not have been found in Jim's original form. And where's Vision's blood? Jim had something that passed for blood...he donated it to Spitfire.

If anything whatever weird thing Hank saw in Vison's brain in Avengers #93 supports Stern's control chip idea. Hank saw something that didn't belong there. Which is also supported by Vision being mind controlled into stealing Adamantium for Ultron in Avengers #66. Even way back in Avengers #93 Thomas is telling us there is something in Vision's brain that is not supposed to be there.



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