Quote:It isnt that Kaine feels that Ben is bad but he is disappointed in him. In the limited series with Kaine as Scarlet Spider it was pretty clear that Kaine was trying to live up to who Ben had been, and the guilt he carried. Now Ben is back, isnt the whiter than white soul Kaine thought he was after the torture he went through, but now he is cured of clone degeneration after Kaine went through years of agony, only to be cured and now have a less painful version of it come back. Ben of course has a terrible experience, goes bad and then seemingly is returning to normal.
Quote:And Kaine who has always felt inadequate ever since the Jackal cast him out, he cant bear it.
Quote:And it isnt that Kaine hates Ben... its the opposite. He loves him and to see what Ben did as the Jackal rocked Kaines ideals and belief in how he could earn his own redemption. In fact it seems Ben says he can be redeemed and he gets the lucky break. Kaine has to fight every bloody inch for what he gets.
I like that idea but that's really not how we see Kaine's attitude addressed in the comics (even though I grant your way is better). Ever since Ben revealed himself as the Jackal Kaine has acted like Ben is evil incarnate and deserves to be murdered and he seems indifferent to the fact that a) Kaine's done a lot worse b) Kaine has seemingly been forgiven for a lot of it particularly by Peter the guy both of them measure themselves against. Kaine's redemption seems to be ignored by this story. If Kaine thinks he deserves redemption why doesn't he think Ben deserves it as well?
My problem with Kaine and Ben's current dynamic is that Kaine thinks Ben is worse than he is. He isn't. We're not seeing Kaine wrestling with any of the moral quagmires here...he wants Ben dead like he always has. At his worst Ben never enjoyed slaughtering or disfiguring people. He tried to help people in a misguided way and he definitely has a responsibility to everyone who died or whose lives he made worse. But he never did it out of malice (well ok that whole telling his goons to kill Peter was malice...really disappointed in that bit of writing).
Kaine always fixates on Ben. He hates Ben for being good. He hates Ben for being evil. He hates him when he's a clone and when he's not a clone.
Quote:What Kaine doesnt get is that the torture Ben has been through since he died in PP75 has possibly been deeper even than the years of pain Kaine went through. In a way Ben has fallen further, his actual soul is blackened and breaking but Kaine just sees those pretty boy looks and it burns him up.
Quote:Theyll be friends in the end. But then, they actually always have been. Apart from Kaine trrying to kill Ben regularly. Well they are more than friends I guess, brothers.
I don't think they should be friends per se. Kaine has tried to murder him a lot. But maybe they could bury the hatchet a bit.
Quote:I want to see Janine back and a follow up to Redemption Part 2.
Quote:Ben has a point about Kaine too. The way Kaine treated Janine and Ben and killed people, not a hero. But then he was in terrible pain. Its about empathy. Ben until recently always had empathy, it was made him such a great guy, better than Peter even imho. The best Spider-Man so far. But when he lost that, when the Jackal took that he fell, far and fast.
I miss that version of Ben as well. Peter had a life he had to protect like when he made his deal with Venom. Ben didn't have that luxury...he could afford to take the high road and defeat Venom.
(speaking of Janine...I have wanted her to return for the past 20 years...bring her back...with Ben's baby!)
Quote:THAT for Ben is pretty scary stuff. And Kaine is like... 'But you were meant to be better than that! You had all the breaks! You can't just be like me!!!
The problem is Kaine didn't really see Ben that way. He saw Peter that way. When he thought Peter was the clone (which he did throughout most of the clone saga) he wanted to do everything to make Peter's life better and for Peter for lack of a better phrase: be the clone that makes it.
All the clone retconning hasn't really affected Kaine's view on Ben. You would think Kaine would swap the feelings he has for Peter and Ben knowing that he was wrong and Peter is the real deal and Ben was a fellow clone...but nope. He still respects Peter (to an extent) and still hates Ben. His hate of Ben has been a constant throughout everything. He never got around to changing his mind about Ben.
I don't think he visits these boards anymore but I am interested in your analysis here. I think its physically true, in that it is taking place the way you are saying. Emotional truth and the way readers think about these characters is actually closer I suspect to my thoughts, which despite disagreeing with you were very kind about.
I would be interested to know PAD's view but oh well. lol.