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Post By
Reverend Meteor

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,043
In Reply To
Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 10,411
Subj: Re: If I correctly understood the stories written by Stan Lee, it depends if the story is set during WWII or after
Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 at 10:32:13 am EDT (Viewed 719 times)
Reply Subj: If I correctly understood the stories written by Stan Lee, it depends if the story is set during WWII or after
Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 at 04:10:11 am EDT (Viewed 764 times)

    Apparently, during WWII, Dr. Zemo was no fighter at all.

    After he fled to South America, he had free time to learn karate.

    Obviously, it wasn't sufficient to fight against Captain America.

    My feeling is that Heinrich was a failed attempt by Stan Lee to replace the WWII Red Skull with a newcomer in the Avengers book.

Not IMO. They're not really cut from the same cloth. Heinrich Zemo was a scientist. He was a Wernher von Braun meets Nikola Tesla type. Johann was a nobody until Hitler molded him into a soldier. Hitler turned a violent loser with nothing going for him into history's greatest monster with Johanh. With Heinrich he let a selfish scientist loose and let him do what he wanted without fear of breaking the law.

They're both Nazis but to me Heinrich wasn't gutter trash like Johann. He was a scientist.

And personally I've always liked that Heinrich killed Bucky and not Red Skull. That was a victory the Red Skull could never really claim over Cap (not that he hasn't tried). Someone else beat him to that one.

    Read again the Silver Age Avengers stories with Red Skull in mind instead of Zemo ... and, mostly, they still work. The only added bonus is that Zemo is clearly as much a scientist as he is a fighter and a political leader.

But the Red Skull wasn't really a scientist from what I recall. He's not of the mad scientist archetype...Heinrich is. Heinrich served a slightly different role than Johann.

For example you can't do say a story where Cap or SHIELD is sent in to retrieve a device the Red Skull has built. The Red Skull's a dummy...he's not an inventor.

    I don't know why Stan Lee & Jack Kirby decided to create a new character instead of bringing back the Red Skull.

Because Heinrich is a mad scientist (and quite frankly) the better character of the two. Heinrich doesn't have much depth but he has more than the Red Skull IMO.

    Actually, the red skull mask being stuck on his head by Adhesive X would have made more sense than Zemo's purple cowl. The Red Skull being the killer of Bucky would have been more interesting also.

No I think that would have been something the Red Skull always rubbed his face in and it would always look stupid for Cap to let the Red Skull live. With Heinrich dead Bucky's death could actually be avengged.

That's why I think the plan all along was to create Dr. Zemo, pin Bucky's death on him, kill Zemo off and then let Cap move past Bucky's death.

    Obviously, Stan Lee & Jack Kirby were not convinced by Zemo and they killed him (his death is definitive contrary to other comics deaths).

    Then, Red Skull came back, first in a Spider-Man book (he is revealed as the killer of Peter Parker's parents ! It is only later and by a different writer that the story is retconned) and then in the Captain America book (he worked with THEM/AIM/HYDRA).

    So, the whole plan was probably to replace Zemo by Red Skull as the new archvillain of Captain America, SHIELD and, thus, the Avengers. The Red Skull would have probably become an archfoe of Spider-Man also, if Stan Lee had remained a writer on the books.

I don't think so. Zemo was killed off a year or so after being introduced. I think it's plausible that the plan was to kill him off all along.

    Fortunately, Helmut (post-Phoenix story) became a much more interesting character.

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