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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,579
In Reply To
America's Captain 

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 10,068
Subj: Re: A-listers and others (and thanks to Black Guardian!)
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 02:22:56 pm EDT (Viewed 118 times)
Reply Subj: Re: A-listers and others (plus addition)
Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 at 12:33:29 pm EDT (Viewed 108 times)


      Well, it's your personal definition, so you are free to stick to it and I am free not to. However, while I don't have any sales figures for the last years of the Defenders, but to me at the time it looked as if the series had not been cancelled because it was unsuccessful (it was a title I still enjoyed), but by editorial fiat. They lost half their team (the Angel, Iceman and the Beast, not to mention team leader Candy Southern) because the characters were needed for the launch of X-Factor. (X-Factor #1 and New Defenders #152, the final issue, came out the exact same month). So I got the feeling that the Defenders were at least partly cancelled to ensure that the readers would follow the three ex-X-Men to the new X-Factor book.

    Hmm. OK. You make a good point. I saw Black Guardian's reply, which suggests making room for New Universe drove the cancellation. Probably both X-Factor and New Universe were to blame.

Sounds like it.

    So now I'm wondering why the Champions were cancelled.

Here I would guess it really had something to do with disappointing sales. Depending on whether you consider titles like The Defenders "A" or "B-list" during the prime of the title in the 1970s, the Champions never were more than a B or C-list team; the book never made the jump from every other month to monthly (and even a niche title like The Eternals was published monthly in the 1970s).

    You know - maybe character success is less natural selection and more political buffoonery than I was thinking.

Well, decisions by editorial and management definitely enter into it (just look at the way The Fantastic Four were cancelled due to orders from on high).


      The problem with that was that the launch of X-Factor for a while undid most of how Warren, Bobby and Hank had evolved since they left the X-Men in X-Men vol. 1 #94 as the creators were very much on a trip to recreate the X-Men of their youth (they removed Hank's fur, tried to revive the old Scott-Jean-Warren triangle, and even brought back Hank's 1960s girlfriend Vera Cantor).

    The whole 1986 thing was ridiculous. It really was a very bad year. Except for Ralph Snart.

Oh yes, I just looked back, there was this continuous editorial infighting, especially on the Spider-Man books which led to the sacking of Tom DeFalco as head writer and the fumbling of the resolution of the Hobgoblin mystery the following year, and ultimately to the sacking of Jim Shooter as E-in-C (might have been a different story if his pet project, the New Universe, had not been such a failure).


      The Human Torch also had his solo outings, first in Strange Tales and later as a frequent participant in Marvel Team-Up (he was, IIRC, the most frequently used hero after Spider-Man there and would usually headline the title in the ten or twenty issues where Spidey did not appear). And currently he is appearing in Uncanny Avengers (where I like him a lot).

    I can't bring myself to read an Avengers book lately - but I like the general concept of Johnny Storm travelling around through a variety of books. I didn't like him with Medusa as I couldn't get past my initial impression that Medusa was robbing the cradle, but the general concept of Johnny having a place to appear was pleasing to me. Maybe his next stop will be an X-book. Oddly enough, as I sit here pondering what characters I'd most like to see him teamed with, I end up picturing him with the old entertaining version of the furry Beast (which of course means the Avengers version) along with Warren and Bobby - and yeah, that works, at least for me.

Well, the Beast and Wonder Man are apparently joining the cast of Uncanny Avengers, so maybe you should give that title a try. And pick up the last few TPBs (Duggan's run). Rogue and Johnny really have a nice interplay; he had been romantically involved with Rogue in one of those so-and-so-many-months gap you get from time to time (i.e. before he became involved with his ex-girlfriend's older sister), and now they're close friends. Speaking of Medusa: How much older than Crystal is she supposed to be?


      But using your definition, I am pretty sure that Jean can never become an A-lister. As things stand, her "constituency" in the majority consists of people who love her because of her history as an X-Man, and if she does find success it will largely be because of that, and, as we've seen on another thread, many of those who want her to return say that she has to return because the X-books need her. So I have to wonder whether Marvel or even a majority of fans wants Jean to appear in a title away from the X-Men (either solo or in a team with random non-mutant characters) and if a book like the ones pitched here actually is launched and becomes viable, I think it will be lucky if it lasts a year or two before Jean is drawn back into the family of X-books - i.e. less time than Warren or Bobby spent on the Champions and Defenders.

    Yeah - so now I'm picturing a new X-book specially designed with the Reverend and Black Guardian in mind: it would feature 1963 teen Jean, 1975 twenty-something Jean, Rachel, and Hope, with the working title of "Quadrijeania."

    (AC ducks, covers, and runs.)


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