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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392


Spoke with Steve Epting some years ago and he advised that Proctor wasn't initially going to be an alternate Dane Whitman, hence why he gave him black hair (instead of Dane's brown). So any theories who else he might initially have been planned as?

Also guesses for who the other Gatherer members were counterparts of?
•    Magdalene – Marissa Darrow
•    Swordsman/ Phillip Jarvert - ?
•    Coal Tiger – Black Panther
•    Cassandra – fans suggest Madame Web but I'm not convinced
•    Sloth - ?
•    Anti-Vision – Vision but was A-V based on Simon Williams' engrams?
•    Tabula – I'd suggest Arnim Zola's android Primus
•    Rik – Rick Jones
•    Sliver - ?
•    Tarkas - ?
•    Korg - ?
•    Jocasta – pretty obvious but whose engrams was the alternate based on?

Also, one of the most interesting but later ignored aspects of the Gatherers Saga was the idea that two alternative versions of the same character couldn't exist for long in the same reality. We'd had that hinted at before, as far back as Mr Fantastic and the Brute, but this storyline looked for a while like it might use that front and centre; again it was forgotten in the chaos that came after.

I was also disappointed that we never found out why dark Dane might take the name - or title – of Proctor. A proctor is an official appointed to maintain good order, especially in an academic situation, so more generally conferred upon a scholar than a warrior.





Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Spoke with Steve Epting some years ago and he advised that Proctor wasn't initially going to be an alternate Dane Whitman, hence why he gave him black hair (instead of Dane's brown). So any theories who else he might initially have been planned as?



    Quote:
    Also guesses for who the other Gatherer members were counterparts of?
    •    Magdalene – Marissa Darrow
    •    Swordsman/ Phillip Jarvert - ?
    •    Coal Tiger – Black Panther
    •    Cassandra – fans suggest Madame Web but I'm not convinced
    •    Sloth - ?
    •    Anti-Vision – Vision but was A-V based on Simon Williams' engrams?
    •    Tabula – I'd suggest Arnim Zola's android Primus
    •    Rik – Rick Jones
    •    Sliver - ?
    •    Tarkas - ?
    •    Korg - ?
    •    Jocasta – pretty obvious but whose engrams was the alternate based on?


There seems to be a misconception that Primus was an android. Fabian Nicieza for one thought he was when he used him in New Warriors.

But Primus is actually an organic being going by his earliest appearances.



    Quote:
    Also, one of the most interesting but later ignored aspects of the Gatherers Saga was the idea that two alternative versions of the same character couldn't exist for long in the same reality. We'd had that hinted at before, as far back as Mr Fantastic and the Brute, but this storyline looked for a while like it might use that front and centre; again it was forgotten in the chaos that came after.



    Quote:
    I was also disappointed that we never found out why dark Dane might take the name - or title – of Proctor. A proctor is an official appointed to maintain good order, especially in an academic situation, so more generally conferred upon a scholar than a warrior.





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naiche




Liked the gatherer-storyline, but have no answers about the counterparts - but where are Arkon the magnificent, Thundra and their dimension in all these universes-storylines???


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Snowblind




The earlier parts of the Gatherer arc make it seem it's going to tie into the Celestial Madonna story. When Javert is shown a hologram of Moondragon he calls her Mantis, and his partner is (probably) named after Mary Magdalene. Maybe some of the other Gatherers would be connected to that same period in Avengers history?

> • Swordsman/ Phillip Jarvert - ?

I never understood the deal with the Swordsman. Dane makes a big deal about Javert having the exact same fighting style as Duquesne so they're definitely counterparts, but later on they're treated like two separate people. And why two different names?

I always wondered about Exodus, too. When the Avengers first meet him, Dane says something about him seems familiar. That's explained in the post-Ultraverse Black Knight one-shot as Dane's hazy memory of the 12th century. I always thought Exodus and Proctor looked a lot alike, which was probably just cuz Epting designed both of them (Thane Ector has kind of a similar look too I guess), but maybe there was originally going to be a connection? I doubt Exodus was originally supposed to be Eobar Garrington's 800 year old former bff, and he's another biblical name to boot.

Did Epting say anything else interesting about that Avengers team? I talked to Bob Harras at a con a long time ago and always wished I asked him more about it. Only things I remember from the conversation was that nobody told him about Bloodwraith until that Avengers Annual was already done and that the Black Knight wouldn't be in any Avengers cartoon because the people making the cartoons didn't care about the Black Knight.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Also guesses for who the other Gatherer members were counterparts of?

Not all of them were intended to have counterparts.

•    Swordsman/ Phillip Jarvert - ?
It was pretty much said that the Swordsman we knew was his counterpart.

•    Cassandra – fans suggest Madame Web but I'm not convinced
Makes complete sense to me. At the time, I think she was the most well known Cassandra, especially with telepathy.

•    Sloth - ?
I've heard it suggested that he was an Irish Beast.

•    Tabula – I'd suggest Arnim Zola's android Primus
The Super-Adapatoid?

•    Sliver - ?
I'm in the Mantis club, frankly.

•    Korg - ?
The Thing has been suggested, but I'm not convinced.

You forgot Ute, who was of course Uatu.




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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    It was pretty much said that the Swordsman we knew was his counterpart.

Yet one has an entirely different name than the other!?


    Quote:
    Makes complete sense to me. At the time, I think she was the most well known Cassandra, especially with telepathy.

Yes but she was about a foot or more shorter than Cassandra Webb!?


    Quote:
    I've heard it suggested that he was an Irish Beast.

So the "real McCoy" (i.e. Gallowglass)?


    Quote:
    The Super-Adapatoid?

Makes some sense but didn't seem to have the S-A's power at its disposal when first introduced!? I'd prefer it to Primus since he was initially organic, but I recall that later got changed when he was being used by the Mad Thinker!?


    Quote:
    I'm in the Mantis club, frankly.

Truly? Why the odd codename then? A Mantis that wasn't trained by the Priests of Pama? If so, how did she end up recruited?

I'm sort of doubtful given Harras introduced Mantis again in his later run for The Crossing!


    Quote:
    The Thing has been suggested, but I'm not convinced.

Yeah he had the ability to also shoot energy from his hands which doesn't sound very Grimmy;/ Perhaps a Lava Man?


    Quote:
    You forgot Ute, who was of course Uatu.

Ute makes me laugh given it's meaning here in Australia;)




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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    The earlier parts of the Gatherer arc make it seem it's going to tie into the Celestial Madonna story.

I likewise felt the same but what made you think that in particular besides Swordsman?


    Quote:
    When Javert is shown a hologram of Moondragon he calls her Mantis,

How mistake Heather Douglas for Mantis?


    Quote:
    and his partner is (probably) named after Mary Magdalene

Magdalene was a weird choice of name given she was never ever referred to in RTL apocryphal material as an warrior woman.

Plus if you think about it, Mantis really fitted the role of Baigent and Leigh's gnostic Magdalene if you think how the Celestial Madonna Saga first played out!


    Quote:
    I never understood the deal with the Swordsman. Dane makes a big deal about Javert having the exact same fighting style as Duquesne so they're definitely counterparts, but later on they're treated like two separate people. And why two different names?

Yes my own exact thoughts at the time! So wassup?


    Quote:
    I always wondered about Exodus, too.

I have an actual theory about Exodus. When he was initially introduced in Fatal Attractions, a point was made of him being suggested to be Native American (by Warpath in X-Force #25 which Fabian revealed online was part of the background briefing he got from Scott Lobdell about that character).

Chris Claremont revealed in his famous 1996 interview with Ulrik Kristiansen and Tue Sorenson that a lot of his plots ideas ended up getting used after he was fired, but somewhat altered so they didn't have to credit him.

Claremont more recently revealed (in 2013 to David Rettenmaier) that as his original run began with Thunderbird, it was going to end with Thunderbird. There would be this huge, twenty year space in between of stories minus John Proudstar, but he had this epic in mind, and wanted Thunderbird appearances to be like bookends to his classic run. So what if his plot to bring Thunderbird back was altered and John became Exodus!? And the plot then got dropped!

All a mess in the end, mind you.


    Quote:
    When the Avengers first meet him, Dane says something about him seems familiar.

Yeah who knows what was intended there since when would Dane have likely met a Native American in the Crusades!?


    Quote:
    I always thought Exodus and Proctor looked a lot alike, which was probably just cuz Epting designed both of them (Thane Ector has kind of a similar look too I guess),

Yeah the hairstyle and the eyes;)


    Quote:
    but maybe there was originally going to be a connection? I doubt Exodus was originally supposed to be Eobar Garrington's 800 year old former bff, and he's another biblical name to boot.

See above re: Claremont


    Quote:
    Did Epting say anything else interesting about that Avengers team? I talked to Bob Harras at a con a long time ago and always wished I asked him more about it. Only things I remember from the conversation was that nobody told him about Bloodwraith until that Avengers Annual was already done and that the Black Knight wouldn't be in any Avengers cartoon because the people making the cartoons didn't care about the Black Knight.

But didn't he create Bloodwraith? Or was that character created by a committee? And did Dane get written out of the title because of a cartoon? But it hadn't been released by the end of the Gatherers Saga? That's all very bizarre.

All Epting confirmed was Proctor wasn't initially going to be Dane, and Bob only confirmed Rik to be Rick Jones but provided no clues about the others. He also asked the same question about Swordsman but Bob was cagey on that too.

I always felt the Gatherers Saga was intended to be the first stage of The Crossing myself, so the two villain groups were interconnected (and hated Busiek's later turn that the latter were all Space Phantoms and would love to work with interested board members to begin coming up with an alternative fix that doesn't resort to that).




Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    There seems to be a misconception that Primus was an android. Fabian Nicieza for one thought he was when he used him in New Warriors.But Primus is actually an organic being going by his earliest appearances.

Yep aware but IIRC the android mistake ended up becoming continuity after that!?




Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    The earlier parts of the Gatherer arc make it seem it's going to tie into the Celestial Madonna story.

Okay bear with me on this everyone and feel free to weigh in:) There're a few things worth noting about the original crossover, The Crossing.

That is, while Malachi & Tobias are obviously intended as the sons of Vision, their solar eyebeams possessing a creepy similarity to the android who cries, wondering if anyone's given thought to the idea that their mother was intended as Mantis and not Wanda (and that they were not in fact Thomas and William as fans surmised at the time)? Recall, while Kang refers to them throughout the crossover as his adopted sons, at no point does "She Who is This One"!

Recall too how the continuity implant from Avengers Forever series that Kang’s allies were a bunch of Space Phantoms just doesn’t work. Take for instance the powers of Space Phantoms. When Space Phantoms returned to Limbo it was regularly pointed out that they always materialised in the exact location their subject had been shunted to there, something never shown in either The Crossing or Avengers Forever for ANY of the characters they were revealed to be masquerading as; and in fact The Crossing regularly showed Luna, Malachi & Tobias, Elder Cotati/Swordsman and Mantis stepping directly back into Limbo through portals from Earth with nary a subject in sight. If this wasn’t enough, you’ll find a scene in Iron Man #325 where Kang joins his adopted son, Tobias, in a rigorous combat training session, and only the two of them are present. At the end of it, Kang berates Tobias for being too soft and unprepared to be a fit heir to him… Well, if they actually were Immortus and a Space Phantom as Busiek contends, why would they keep on pretending under such circumstances, with nobody to fool around?!

While The Crossing unfortunately ended up a disaster for all the reasons we know (but also I suspect in part, due to the Heroes Reborn reboot) it raised some fascinating plot points, including:

1. Why Kang was opposing the Elder Cotati and the Priests of Pama – and married to Mantis – when in Fantastic Four #325 he was allied with them against her?

2. Why for that matter would Kang be intent on erasing Vietnam from history when this was his new wife’s birthplace, the location of the Temple of Agaphaur where she trained to become the Celestial Madonna, and most important of all where his agent, Tony Stark, became Iron Man?

While attempts to address this occur in Avengers #395 when Mantis reveals she joined Kang "to take revenge on the Vision for spurning her for the Scarlet Witch, driving her to marry the Cotati Swordsman and giving birth to the Celestial Messiah", why did she show no signs of being pissed at him, or Wanda for that matter, when they were teammates in West Coast Avengers during Englehart's own run? The last time we’d seen her (i.e. Fantastic Four #325 and Fantastic Four Annual #25) she was intent on getting her son BACK from the Elder Cotati, so the seeds were obviously planted there for her turning against them. But why regret conceiving her son and go on to join Kang who had most recently been their ally?

3. At the time it made me further wonder whether it all alternatively suggested that Mantis had approached Kang after Fantastic Four #325, offering herself in place of his beloved Ravonna, in return for him wiping out all traces of her life, including the Temple of Agaphaur, DuQuesne, etc. (the deal also perhaps including Kang rewriting her history so she had conceived children to the Vision instead, since it was pretty obvious that’s who Malachi and Tobias were intended as and not Thomas and William as most fans thought at the time).

The only problem this raises is why Kang would switch sides to become her ally, or marry her for that matter, when she would attempt to undo the birth of the Celestial Messiah which he was intent on securing, or more recently undo her marriage to him and end up with the Vision after all!?

4. Then there’s the still unresolved plot point from Force Works #18, a chapter of The Crossing storyline constructed in 1995 under the auspices of then-Avengers group editor, Mark Gruewald, which has Suzi Endo and Rachel Carpenter (Spider-Woman II's daughter) discovering temporal radiation emanating from a previously-unknown sub-basement containing Virgil, a "global chronography analysis and control suite" created by Timely Industries, a company founded by Tony Stark in 2009. We know "Victor Timely" to be one of Kang the Conqueror's aliases from the early 20th Century. That is, in Avengers Annual #21, written by Gruenwald, Kang journeys back to January 1, 1901 to found the town of Timely in Wisconsin under this same alias, slowly releasing technological innovations through Timely Industries. If Timely Industries wasn’t founded until 2009, it must have been constructed to exist in numerous time periods at once, an anachronism back in 1901. While this is somewhat head-exploding, and a really awesome concept, the corollary that should really bake every continuity nerd’s noodle out there is that Mark Gruenwald not only had KANG THE CONQUEROR revealed to have founded Timely Industries but had TONY STARK revealed as founding this same company. Gruenwald, whose particular remit was keeper of continuity NEVER made these sorts of errors so he must have intended to retcon Kang’s identity as Nathaniel Richards and reveal that Tony Stark eventually goes on to become Kang. The question then becomes if Tony was so obsessed with preventing people from using his technology in Armor Wars, why would he then go to the trouble of going back in time to foment Marvel's technological revolution from 1901?

As for why and how the Celestial Messiah becomes the menace Kang & Co. claim, how does he come to be such a threat to TIME (and where does Alioth fit into all this)?

Then there’s the question of how the Gatherers plot ties into all this when you consider it was during this tale that the Watcher called forth by Proctor restores the Avengers Mansion but with the mysterious door in its basement. The mansion was identical to the lost one (Beast even found his lost Mickey Mantle baseball card) except for some minor changes like computer settings and quinjet codes which suggested the mansion came from a parallel universe. This then raises the issue of whether the door was already in that mansion before Ute brought it to Earth, whether Kang chose to place the door there at that time, or whether the Gatherers coming to Earth was also Kang-related. If so, how/ why?!

There’s also the question of Proctor's tale highlighting the issue originally introduced in Avengers #2 that two alternative versions of the same character couldn't exist for long in the same reality, when Space Phantom duplicated someone that subject was transported immediately to Limbo. Where could it have lead for the specific purposes of this plot?

Re: Moonraker/ Slade Truman joining Force Works and later being revealed to have been taken over by Gustav Brandt/ Libra, how and why? He kept unknowingly negating events that had already happened (similar to adult-Luna doing so when she earlier appeared to Hercules). How could this tie in? Who else do we know capable of negating events? If both were opposed to Kang, and working for his enemy, does this suggest it was Immortus if the events were then being erased? If so, who was Immortus working for?

And why truly did Neut kill Gilgamesh? If Gilgamesh had been training Kang’s army surely he would have known how important it was to hide this from the Avengers also! So why go after him so viciously for this when he hadn't sold them out to the Avengers?




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

      Quote:
      It was pretty much said that the Swordsman we knew was his counterpart.

    Yet one has an entirely different name than the other!?

      Quote:
      Makes complete sense to me. At the time, I think she was the most well known Cassandra, especially with telepathy.

    Yes but she was about a foot or more shorter than Cassandra Webb!?

Alternate universes. Anything is possible. Counterparts need not have the same names, powers, or appearances.

And look at the rest of Cassandra's appearance: old, long hair, obscured eyes.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The Super-Adapatoid?

    Makes some sense but didn't seem to have the S-A's power at its disposal when first introduced!? I'd prefer it to Primus since he was initially organic, but I recall that later got changed when he was being used by the Mad Thinker!?

Yeah, the more I think, the more I agree with your Primus idea.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm in the Mantis club, frankly.

    Truly? Why the odd codename then? A Mantis that wasn't trained by the Priests of Pama? If so, how did she end up recruited?

Many of the Gatherer codenames were odd, and some were meaningless.
Never been a fan of the Mantis name, personally.


    Quote:
    I'm sort of doubtful given Harras introduced Mantis again in his later run for The Crossing!

Not at all relevant, one way or the other, imo.

Also, thinking some more...

The name Tarkas brings to mind Tars Tarkas, of John Carter fame. Maybe his universe was a lot like Barsoom.




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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:
      It was pretty much said that the Swordsman we knew was his counterpart.
      Yet one has an entirely different name than the other!?



Marvel does a bad job sometimes when it comes to this sort of stuff.

For example the Bucky from the Heroes Reborn universe is supposed to be the counterpart of a dead child from the 616 timeline. But in that Heroes Reborn reality that female Bucky is the granddaughter of the original Bucky and Peggy Carter. In the 616 timeline Bucky and Peggy don't have a child or grandchildren together.


To me if your alternate reality doppelganger doesn't share your same first and last name, your same exact DNA or has different people as parents...then it's not a doppelganger.




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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


counterpart =/= doppelganger

After all, we've seen tons of alt-gender or alt-race counterparts over the years. And then there are instances of different characters replacing 616 versions-- Thordis is an alt-reality counterpart of 616-Thor.




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    Quote:
    counterpart =/= doppelganger



    Quote:
    After all, we've seen tons of alt-gender or alt-race counterparts over the years. And then there are instances of different characters replacing 616 versions-- Thordis is an alt-reality counterpart of 616-Thor.


Of the current female Thor? Yes. The real Thor? No. She's just someone who has his power like Eric Masterson.


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Reverend Meteor




dumb idea...maybe Javert recognized Moondragon as Mantis because in his reality Moondragon was selected to be the Celestial Madonna?

And maybe the villainous Mantis from the Crossing never mated with a tree and had his alien tree baby because her reality's Moondragon did that.

Of course I think crossing Mantis still went by Mantis and there's no reason to think alternate reality Heather Douglas would call herself Mantis.

I've always wanted to see the alternate reality where Moondragon was selected to be the Celestial Madonna. Has there even been a What If that's done that?


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Snowblind





    Quote:
    I likewise felt the same but what made you think that in particular besides Swordsman?


Mostly the fact that Swordsman was brought back at all. And add in the Mantis/Moondragon thing, Magdalene, and the fact that, like Epting said to you, Proctor was supposed to be something else entirely.

Also, I always had the feeling that Harras was trying to tell a story that had roots in Avengers history, after 40 or so issues where it was sort of a bunch of costumed people doing random stuff. There was a scene in the 340's I think where he has Black Widow and Cap talk a bit about how the Avengers feel like an actual team again. And the issue (380?) during the Stern/Buscema run where Jarvis reminisces while recovering after the mansion siege was guest written by Harras, so Avengers history seemed pretty important to him. Jarvis says in that issue that cleaning out Swordsman's room after he dies was the saddest part of his Avengers duty.



    Quote:
    How mistake Heather Douglas for Mantis?

It was when they first capture Javert. Something gives Dane and Natasha the idea to show him a hologram of Moondragon and he calls her Mantis and they cut away. They busted out the big font for him shouting her name so it seemed important but they never mentioned it again.


    Quote:

    I have an actual theory about Exodus. When he was initially introduced in Fatal Attractions, a point was made of him being suggested to be Native American (by Warpath in X-Force #25 which Fabian revealed online was part of the background briefing he got from Scott Lobdell about that character).

Wow, that's really interesting. Did Claremont ever talk about what his original plans for that run were?


    Quote:
    Yeah the hairstyle and the eyes;)

And those sweet silver space boots! Even Dane got in on that trend. Chrome boots, blue chain-mail, authentic Avengers branded leather jacket and permanent 5 o'clock shadow. Who was styling harder in the 90s, Dane or the Kevin Sorbo-fied Hercules? If Proctor had that look Sersi never would have bailed on him in the first place.


    Quote:
    But didn't he create Bloodwraith? Or was that character created by a committee? And did Dane get written out of the title because of a cartoon? But it hadn't been released by the end of the Gatherers Saga? That's all very bizarre.


He said Bloodwraith was created by whoever wrote that story and they didn't even ask for his input. The gimmick that year was every annual introduced a new character so they didn't seem too concerned about the annuals flowing organically from the main books or anything. I think I asked him something about the Ebony Blade and that's how it came up.

The con I met Harras at was sometime around the time #375 came out, so right around the end of the Gatherers arc. It was definitely after #363 (I won an uncut printer sheet of that foil cover by answering some trivia question) but probably before the Crossing started. The Avengers cartoon was just a rumor at the time I think, but ended up being either that Iron Man cartoon on Fox Kids or that weird AWC cartoon that had the extra fluffy Tigra and Christmas color Wonder Man in it.


    Quote:
    I always felt the Gatherers Saga was intended to be the first stage of The Crossing myself, so the two villain groups were interconnected


I see that connection too, but think it's more that some of the earlier plans for the Gatherers arc were recycled for the Crossing. That might have even been the reason the story was changed so abruptly, they decided to push back the bigger elements to tie in more books.


    Quote:
    (and hated Busiek's later turn that the latter were all Space Phantoms

I feel that way too. I get that Busiek had to clean that up, but I wish some more of the story had been left intact. Not sure what I would have come up with if I was in his shoes, though.

One cool Gatherers-era related thing in Avengers Forever, it implies that the dystopian future they're trying to prevent (with Rick Jones XIVish as emperor and guerilla GotG) is created when the Black Knight starts getting the Avengers more involved interfering in Kree/Shia'ar/etc business after Deathcry joins the team. Busiek doesn't come all the way out and say that but I always thought that was implication. Did anybody else read it that way?


    Quote:
    and would love to work with interested board members to begin coming up with an alternative fix that doesn't resort to that).


My theory is that the Marvel universe is actually one third Space Phantom, one third Skrull and one third Wolverine, and the only characters who actually exist are the Tetrachs of Entropy.


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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    And look at the rest of Cassandra's appearance: old, long hair, obscured eyes.

And a foot shorter;/


    Quote:
    Yeah, the more I think, the more I agree with your Primus idea
\:\)


    Quote:
    The name Tarkas brings to mind Tars Tarkas, of John Carter fame. Maybe his universe was a lot like Barsoom.

I'm now trying to recall whether there were Barsoomian equivalents in the MU proper now:)





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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    dumb idea...maybe Javert recognized Moondragon as Mantis because in his reality Moondragon was selected to be the Celestial Madonna?

I wonder if Magdalene was from his reality or another as they seemed a close partnership early on?


    Quote:
    And maybe the villainous Mantis from the Crossing never mated with a tree and had his alien tree baby because her reality's Moondragon did that.

The Mantis from the Crossing was meant to be our reality's and had gotten Kang to rewrite time so she had Vizh's children, who were Malachi and Tobias!


    Quote:
    Of course I think crossing Mantis still went by Mantis and there's no reason to think alternate reality Heather Douglas would call herself Mantis.

I agree. But perhaps Jarvert's time period it was Heather who was chosen to be the Celestial Madonna as suggested!?


    Quote:
    I've always wanted to see the alternate reality where Moondragon was selected to be the Celestial Madonna. Has there even been a What If that's done that?

Unfortunately not. Also a What If where Wanda is chosen would be cool, both written by Englehart and illustrated by Starlin.





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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    Mostly the fact that Swordsman was brought back at all.

The fact that Harras chose that name suggests he was aiming for French (can you say Inspector from Les Mis;), but he got the spelling wrong:(


    Quote:
    And add in the Mantis/Moondragon thing, Magdalene, and the fact that, like Epting said to you, Proctor was supposed to be something else entirely.

So your thoughts on Magdalene given she had a counterpart in our reality called Marissa Darrow?


    Quote:
    Also, I always had the feeling that Harras was trying to tell a story that had roots in Avengers history, after 40 or so issues where it was sort of a bunch of costumed people doing random stuff. There was a scene in the 340's I think where he has Black Widow and Cap talk a bit about how the Avengers feel like an actual team again. And the issue (380?) during the Stern/Buscema run where Jarvis reminisces while recovering after the mansion siege was guest written by Harras, so Avengers history seemed pretty important to him. Jarvis says in that issue that cleaning out Swordsman's room after he dies was the saddest part of his Avengers duty.

Ah Avengers #280 where he attempted to turn Jarvis into Nick Fury;)


    Quote:
    It was when they first capture Javert. Something gives Dane and Natasha the idea to show him a hologram of Moondragon and he calls her Mantis and they cut away. They busted out the big font for him shouting her name so it seemed important but they never mentioned it again.

Perhaps in this Swordsman's reality, the Elder Cotati chose him over Duquesne? I like the idea of him and Moondragon:) Thanks for that.


    Quote:
    Wow, that's really interesting. Did Claremont ever talk about what his original plans for that run were?

It was a couple of years ago and I think he saw the writing on the wall about Harras so intended the Shadow King Saga as his swansong. And intended to return Thunderbird for it. Know nothing more than that (except that he intended to have a story about Wolverine's mother directly after in #301-304:(


    Quote:
    And those sweet silver space boots! Even Dane got in on that trend. Chrome boots, blue chain-mail, authentic Avengers branded leather jacket and permanent 5 o'clock shadow. Who was styling harder in the 90s, Dane or the Kevin Sorbo-fied Hercules? If Proctor had that look Sersi never would have bailed on him in the first place.

Ah the early 90s with Nomad, Blaze, etc.:(


    Quote:
    He said Bloodwraith was created by whoever wrote that story and they didn't even ask for his input. The gimmick that year was every annual introduced a new character so they didn't seem too concerned about the annuals flowing organically from the main books or anything. I think I asked him something about the Ebony Blade and that's how it came up.

Strange given he was on the path to EiC!?


    Quote:
    The con I met Harras at was sometime around the time #375 came out, so right around the end of the Gatherers arc.

I bet you wish you'd had these questions ready to ask back then!?


    Quote:
    The Avengers cartoon was just a rumor at the time I think, but ended up being either that Iron Man cartoon on Fox Kids or that weird AWC cartoon that had the extra fluffy Tigra and Christmas color Wonder Man in it.

Not the Force Works cartoon? We never got either here in Australia:(


    Quote:
    I see that connection too, but think it's more that some of the earlier plans for the Gatherers arc were recycled for the Crossing. That might have even been the reason the story was changed so abruptly, they decided to push back the bigger elements to tie in more books.

We need to interview Bob and Terry Kavanagh for the full story.


    Quote:
    I feel that way too. I get that Busiek had to clean that up, but I wish some more of the story had been left intact. Not sure what I would have come up with if I was in his shoes, though.

Perhaps we start a thread to try and nut it out!


    Quote:
    One cool Gatherers-era related thing in Avengers Forever, it implies that the dystopian future they're trying to prevent (with Rick Jones XIVish as emperor and guerilla GotG) is created when the Black Knight starts getting the Avengers more involved interfering in Kree/Shia'ar/etc business after Deathcry joins the team.

I'd have thought BK leading the Avengers to kill the Supreme Intelligence to be the start!?


    Quote:
    My theory is that the Marvel universe is actually one third Space Phantom, one third Skrull and one third Wolverine, and the only characters who actually exist are the Tetrachs of Entropy.

No, Space Phantom is Susan Richards' miscarried child as I've theorised on my blog;)





Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
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Reverend Meteor






    Quote:
    So your thoughts on Magdalene given she had a counterpart in our reality called Marissa Darrow?


I kinda got the vibe that in her timeline Magdalene was not named Marissa Darrow.




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    I'm now trying to recall whether there were Barsoomian equivalents in the MU proper now:)

There are not.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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kiko






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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    I kinda got the vibe that in her timeline Magdalene was not named Marissa Darrow.

You know I had that same feeling. So any thoughts who her true counterpart might have been?





Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 38.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:
      I kinda got the vibe that in her timeline Magdalene was not named Marissa Darrow.
      You know I had that same feeling. So any thoughts who her true counterpart might have been?


I think Magadalene's parents just named her...Magdalene.




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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,392



    Quote:
    I think Magadalene's parents just named her...Magdalene.

Which Messianic character was she intended as partner to? Marissa means "little Mary" and Darrow is a variant of Darragh from the Gaelic MacDara which links to "oak". So she was obviously destined to be the wife of Quoi (wrong genus I know but we know Harras wasn't that deep;)! So possible proof the Gatherers would connect to The Crossing when Mantis's son was the planned "great menace". How's that:)





Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
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