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emerick man 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Comics were so good back then. Used this ish as source for banner submission. The irony of the corny gag is that Mock used to have her MB at Second-String Sanctuary but lost visitor/popular support and was removed. Ironic that Bobbi will now surely be getting more fans than ever with Adrianne Palicki wonderfully playing her on TV and her very good One-Shot out this week may generate more spotlights on her.

Avengers West Coast #43
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/West_Coast_Avengers_Vol_2_43

> Scarlet Witch is seething, and her vengeance is mighty; the West Coast Avengers find Vision at a Vigilance base, where he is the latest science experiment of Cameron Brock. Will the Avengers be able to prevent a dissection of their android teammate? Find out in 'To Rescue the Vision'!

p1
p2
p3
revisit

I miss Dad and Dan.




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Dane Whitman




The banner raised a smile. The preview of Mock's one shot read very well. A bit corny the story kicks off with news of a dead person, but all in all, art and dialogue so far make me think this will be a good read. I hope we get a series or at least some work for this writer.

As to #42 of WCA and all that... When I read that issue way back when, I thought it was about the best comic I had ever read. This arc gets some bad press, though. The type of bad press that Morrison or Bendis pick up: these characters are being written wrong, etc. No way should Hawkeye call the Scarlet Witch Wanj. Not all the choices were good ones, but at least they were choices and not more of the same.

Finally, I found the Quake preview a bit wearing, but I will buy it anyway as Quake's appearance in Avengers bothered me. Not that I like her too much, but she was In and then out with no explanation of either. Looks like it is at least discussed here.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Comics were so good back then. Used this ish as source for banner submission. The irony of the corny gag is that Mock used to have her MB at Second-String Sanctuary but lost visitor/popular support and was removed. Ironic that Bobbi will now surely be getting more fans than ever with Adrianne Palicki wonderfully playing her on TV and her very good One-Shot out this week may generate more spotlights on her.


Surprised you said this one was so good. It's fairly infamous for the dismantling of the Vision. Let's be honest...the character never really recovered.




Reverend Meteor (thankfully I was never a Wanda or Vision fan so Byrne ruining them for all time didn't bother me)


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086



    Quote:
    Surprised you said this one was so good. It's fairly infamous for the dismantling of the Vision. Let's be honest...the character never really recovered.

Infamous is right. Until this issue, Byrne could do no wrong in my eyes. But I was disgusted at what he did to the Vision.


    Quote:

    Reverend Meteor (thankfully I was never a Wanda or Vision fan so Byrne ruining them for all time didn't bother me)

What bothered me the most is the disregard for the heaps of continuity that showed the Vision as a being of (synthetic) tissue, bone and blood. He was NEVER a mechanical robot until Byrne showed him dismantled on that table. Heck, there was a whole issue of Ant Man traveling through the interior of Vision's body, and I promise you it wasn't gears and circuitry.

Wanda never recovered either. Byrne made her look like a loony who fell in love with an inanimate object. On top of it all, Byrne inexplicably kept the Vision hanging around, but stripped him of his awesome costume, his depth and his personality. Pale Vision was a ghost of his former self, and it was repugnant.

What a complete misunderstanding of these characters. What a waste of a very sweet romance.







"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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emerick man 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





I miss you, Dan. I miss you, Dad. I miss you, Dan.
I miss you, Dad & Dan. I miss you Dad and Dan. Support Cancer Research.
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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




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Reverend Meteor




A grandfather or uncle perhaps. Eddie's father Carl was in Venom Lethal Protector. Eddie's mother Jamie died in childbirth giving birth to Eddie. Eddie has a younger sister via continuity error named Mary who died in Nova vol 3.

Reverend Meteor (Cameron is probably no relation at all though)


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Reverend Meteor





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Daveym

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



I remember it so well. West Coast Avengers was a quiet favourite of mine at the time, Steve Englehart was always so solid and readable I enjoyed all three of his books in the mid-80s - Green Lantern, Silver Surfer and WCA, all three were written in much the same way, with longterm plotting that built issue by issue to reward the reader at intervals as everything linked together and kept growing. By the time WCA #42 arrived Engleharts work had become more unreliable, due to backroom interference, of which I would only learn many years later. But when #42 did arrive it was with some sadness, I wanted Englehart. I liked what Englehart and Milgrom had built between them -with Hawkeye's ad-hoc leadership and his charming partnership with wife Mockingbird, the reinvention of Hank Pym into a stronger more assured figure, Wonderman too moved on from where he was to be given a level of self-confidence that frequently went over into arrogance, his rivalry with Iron Man was one of a number of character quirks between the cast.

Still, judged on its own terms John Byrne's debut IS a succes. Superb art, The Scarlet Witch front and center, the quiet reunion of Hank and Janet, Mockingbird dealing with her estrangment from Clint in a mature manner while he procrastinates and avoids... yes, there are a number of memorable moments in those forst two or three issues. The worries come as the run develops.
The many criticisms laid at the writer for his handling of the Scarlet Witch and Vision are fair ones I feel, I share them. While there is a legitimate line of argument to be had that the break-up of Wanda's marriage was an inevitability of Marvel's policy of "Only the Illusion of Progress" the timing and the methods used to seperate the couple were anything but conservative. There is one interview from the time that sticks in the mind as to the problem here - an interview for either Marvel Age or Wizard had Byrne discuss his approach to the storyline by declaring his known love of the Scarlet Witch as his favourite Avenger then comparing her longstanding love with the Vision as the equivalent of loving a toaster... to Byrne then The Vision was nothing more than an appliance, a programmed machine. And one he had little time or love for.
But the problem with this storyline lies deeper than what appeared on the page. Even at the time the harshness of his treatment of the Scarlet Witch was increasingly uncomfortable to watch as we see her discover her husbands dissected corpse, learn her children were figments of her imagination, and that Wanda was... what? A madwoman? A weirdo who loved 'toasters' rather than a real man? As she slides into insanity the message from John Byrne on his 'favourite' Avenger seemed to support those claims. And coming from a man who has repeatedly attacked the likes of Alan Moore for the deconstructionism that swept comics at the time this is high hypocrisy indeed. As in principle little seperates what Byrne did to The Scarlet Witch and Vision from what the likes of Moore were doing to Barbara Gordon, or Brad Meltzer did to Elongated Man and Sue Dibney. Byrne's inability to recognise the conceit that the Vision was an artificial man in the same way that Jim Hammond was failed to adhere to his own much voiced declaration that comics were for the young, teens. As such the placing of The Vision as a "Synthezoid" should have been all that was needed to seperate any thoughts of The Vision being some mere 'Toaster', only a deeply cynical and adult oriantated mind would ever fail to recognise the characters entire reason for being is that he is a unique and individual lifeform who has a right to a the life which he chooses. In much the same way that Wonderman is merely Ionic energy given human form by the mind of what is/was Simon Williams The Vision has a perfectly valid right to exist for what he is. Not what other people think he is.

The legacy left by Byrne's handling of these two popular characters continues to this day, for as we have seen Wanda has never quite recovered from that chapter of the Avengers so long ago now, and the frustrating reality is it was all so unnecessary and mean spirited to implement as Byrne never even saw the storyline out. In a move that mimiced his Incredible Hulk run he tore the character and book apart and... walked off it. Leaving an almighty mess for others to have to come in and sweep up.

THAT is the real shame of it all, he did not care to finish what he had started. And that reflects on him worst of all.

Looking back it that West Coast Avengers run was all a desperately sad waste. A solid teambook that was running nicely under Steve Englehart's guidance was ripped apart, the well regarded character development of Hawkeye jettisoned as he is casually removed from his successful management of the team and none of his supposed friends and teammates cares or objects, even when it is the repugnant USAgent who forces him out.
The strong partnership of The Scarlet Witch and The Vision ceased to exist, from todays perspective their strong partnership and love for the other belongs to a bygone era, a long forgotten past.
On the plus side though (and yes, despite the problems there are a lot of fine memorable moments) we follow Hank Pym as he is given a strong role by Byrne, building on Steve Engleharts work on the character Hank shows his strengths by being the rational calm center of the group, this is still my favourite interpretation of Hank - strong, stable, wise, and an elder statesman of the Avengers contributing his experience to the newer generation of Avenger. Mockingbird too is given good characterisation, but again it is a bittersweet plotline as along with Hawkeye she was a vital part of the books backbone and appeal, now being seemingly demoted to insignificance and written out.
The Scarlet Witch and Vision got the worst from this run, but Hawkeye too deserved far better than he got. Finally his own man, a wife who complemented him professionally and privately, management of his own Avengers branch... Yes, In hindsight his rise & fall in the 80s mirrored that of Captain Marvel/Monica Rambeau. Both were very shabbily treated... \(fear\)



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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086


Your experience was exactly the same as mine. Thanks for writing my own thoughts below.


    Quote:

    I remember it so well. West Coast Avengers was a quiet favourite of mine at the time, Steve Englehart was always so solid and readable I enjoyed all three of his books in the mid-80s - Green Lantern, Silver Surfer and WCA, all three were written in much the same way, with longterm plotting that built issue by issue to reward the reader at intervals as everything linked together and kept growing. By the time WCA #42 arrived Engleharts work had become more unreliable, due to backroom interference, of which I would only learn many years later. But when #42 did arrive it was with some sadness, I wanted Englehart. I liked what Englehart and Milgrom had built between them -with Hawkeye's ad-hoc leadership and his charming partnership with wife Mockingbird, the reinvention of Hank Pym into a stronger more assured figure, Wonderman too moved on from where he was to be given a level of self-confidence that frequently went over into arrogance, his rivalry with Iron Man was one of a number of character quirks between the cast.



    Quote:
    Still, judged on its own terms John Byrne's debut IS a succes. Superb art, The Scarlet Witch front and center, the quiet reunion of Hank and Janet, Mockingbird dealing with her estrangment from Clint in a mature manner while he procrastinates and avoids... yes, there are a number of memorable moments in those forst two or three issues. The worries come as the run develops.
    The many criticisms laid at the writer for his handling of the Scarlet Witch and Vision are fair ones I feel, I share them. While there is a legitimate line of argument to be had that the break-up of Wanda's marriage was an inevitability of Marvel's policy of "Only the Illusion of Progress" the timing and the methods used to seperate the couple were anything but conservative. There is one interview from the time that sticks in the mind as to the problem here - an interview for either Marvel Age or Wizard had Byrne discuss his approach to the storyline by declaring his known love of the Scarlet Witch as his favourite Avenger then comparing her longstanding love with the Vision as the equivalent of loving a toaster... to Byrne then The Vision was nothing more than an appliance, a programmed machine. And one he had little time or love for.
    But the problem with this storyline lies deeper than what appeared on the page. Even at the time the harshness of his treatment of the Scarlet Witch was increasingly uncomfortable to watch as we see her discover her husbands dissected corpse, learn her children were figments of her imagination, and that Wanda was... what? A madwoman? A weirdo who loved 'toasters' rather than a real man? As she slides into insanity the message from John Byrne on his 'favourite' Avenger seemed to support those claims. And coming from a man who has repeatedly attacked the likes of Alan Moore for the deconstructionism that swept comics at the time this is high hypocrisy indeed. As in principle little seperates what Byrne did to The Scarlet Witch and Vision from what the likes of Moore were doing to Barbara Gordon, or Brad Meltzer did to Elongated Man and Sue Dibney. Byrne's inability to recognise the conceit that the Vision was an artificial man in the same way that Jim Hammond was failed to adhere to his own much voiced declaration that comics were for the young, teens. As such the placing of The Vision as a "Synthezoid" should have been all that was needed to seperate any thoughts of The Vision being some mere 'Toaster', only a deeply cynical and adult oriantated mind would ever fail to recognise the characters entire reason for being is that he is a unique and individual lifeform who has a right to a the life which he chooses. In much the same way that Wonderman is merely Ionic energy given human form by the mind of what is/was Simon Williams The Vision has a perfectly valid right to exist for what he is. Not what other people think he is.



    Quote:
    The legacy left by Byrne's handling of these two popular characters continues to this day, for as we have seen Wanda has never quite recovered from that chapter of the Avengers so long ago now, and the frustrating reality is it was all so unnecessary and mean spirited to implement as Byrne never even saw the storyline out. In a move that mimiced his Incredible Hulk run he tore the character and book apart and... walked off it. Leaving an almighty mess for others to have to come in and sweep up.



    Quote:
    THAT is the real shame of it all, he did not care to finish what he had started. And that reflects on him worst of all.



    Quote:
    Looking back it that West Coast Avengers run was all a desperately sad waste. A solid teambook that was running nicely under Steve Englehart's guidance was ripped apart, the well regarded character development of Hawkeye jettisoned as he is casually removed from his successful management of the team and none of his supposed friends and teammates cares or objects, even when it is the repugnant USAgent who forces him out.
    The strong partnership of The Scarlet Witch and The Vision ceased to exist, from todays perspective their strong partnership and love for the other belongs to a bygone era, a long forgotten past.
    On the plus side though (and yes, despite the problems there are a lot of fine memorable moments) we follow Hank Pym as he is given a strong role by Byrne, building on Steve Engleharts work on the character Hank shows his strengths by being the rational calm center of the group, this is still my favourite interpretation of Hank - strong, stable, wise, and an elder statesman of the Avengers contributing his experience to the newer generation of Avenger. Mockingbird too is given good characterisation, but again it is a bittersweet plotline as along with Hawkeye she was a vital part of the books backbone and appeal, now being seemingly demoted to insignificance and written out.
    The Scarlet Witch and Vision got the worst from this run, but Hawkeye too deserved far better than he got. Finally his own man, a wife who complemented him professionally and privately, management of his own Avengers branch... Yes, In hindsight his rise & fall in the 80s mirrored that of Captain Marvel/Monica Rambeau. Both were very shabbily treated... \(fear\)

Agreed 100%. There are a ton of posts about Byrne's treatment of the Vision/Scarlet Witch - but not many about his shabby treatment of Hawkeye. After all the team had been through, when US Agent comes in to throw some weight around, Hawkeye's response was not to fight for the team, but to pull a Cartman (screw you guys, I'm going home)?! So out of character. And if memory serves, not one of the others stepped in to defend his leadership (or his friendship).

It was clear to me then that Byrne didn't understand these characters, and after his excellent work on Alpha Flight and FF, it was such a disappointment. And it was especially jarring after the themes that ran through the Englehart run - family, teamwork, close bonds, mutual respect. It felt like Byrne only showed up to throw a grenade in the room and run.

On the positive side - the artwork in Byrne's run was so beautiful. Visually, it was like the characters came alive. Milgrom was a good storyteller, but his characters looked like tiny dolls.







"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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emerick-man 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Your experience was exactly the same as mine.

Yep. Pretty much mine for Vizh, too.


    Quote:
    The legacy left by Byrne's handling of these two popular characters continues to this day, for as we have seen Wanda has never quite recovered from that chapter of the Avengers so long ago now, and the frustrating reality is it was all so unnecessary and mean spirited to implement as Byrne never even saw the storyline out. In a move that mimiced his Incredible Hulk run he tore the character and book apart and... walked off it. Leaving an almighty mess for others to have to come in and sweep up.

    THAT is the real shame of it all, he did not care to finish what he had started. And that reflects on him worst of all.

Yep. Not sure of the behind-the-scenes politics the the end result of that interrupted/truncated Hulk run was frustratingly deplorable too.

> Hawkeye's response was not to fight for the team, but to pull a Cartman (screw you guys, I'm going home)?! So out of character.
Wasn't that 'quitting thing' Hawkeye's schtick up to then?

> and after his excellent work on Alpha Flight and FF,
So good.

> On the positive side - the artwork in Byrne's run was so beautiful. Visually, it was like the characters came alive.
Yep.

spidey
I miss Dad and Dan.





I miss you, Dan. I miss you, Dad. I miss you, Dan.
I miss you, Dad & Dan. I miss you Dad and Dan. Support Cancer Research.
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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908


The West Coast Avengers was my favourite title when I first started reading comics. I remember trying to figure out where I could read the East Coast Avengers stories since I couldn't find that title... then I realized that the Eakos were in the Avengers comic.

Hawkeye was easily my favourite character and I really enjoyed seeing him develop as a leader of the team - from bringing them together through to where they split after he and Mockingbird separated.

I recall being totally confused by Tigra suddenly being a part of the team again when Byrne started and was disappointed that her character development got regressed as well (ultimately being resolved in Avengers Spotlight and not even in WCA).

That being said, I did continue to read and enjoy the entire series... even after Byrne quit. I was shocked when I found out that the series was ending (solicitations just weren't a thing at that time!).


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