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Daveym

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



Revisiting some of the marvellous Gene Colan-era Avengers stories made me realise just how much I really do miss Janet Van-Dyne. Are the days of Roger Stern/Steve Englehart in the late 80s really the last time The Wasp received significant exposure in The Avengers...?

With differing Avengers books at any one time and No Janey Van Dyne Just what is it modern writers dislike about her? Any thoughs?



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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 564


Wasn't she part of Busiek's run in the 90's?? I too miss and loved the strong, yet fun, chairperson of the Avengers, the Wasp.


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Kyle Bastian




Out of curiosity, will Hank and Jan be added to an Avengers team after Secret Wars? I wouldn't mind one or both of them being added to the main team. Here's how I'd picture the teams (if Hank and Jan return):

Avengers: Iron Man, Captain America (Falcon), Vision, Nova (Alexander), Thor (Foster), Spider-Man (Morales), Ms. Marvel (Khan), Hank Pym, and Wasp

Uncanny Avengers: Steve Rogers, Spider-Man (Parker), Brother Voodoo, Human Torch, Quicksilver, Rogue, Synapse (I think that's her name), Deadpool, and Scarlet Witch

New Avengers: Songbird, Hawkeye, Sunspot, Squirrel Girl, Wiccan, Hulkling, Power Man, White Tiger, and Ant-Man (Lang)

I still think it's injustice to leave out Hank, Jan, and Ant-Man from the Avengers.


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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 564


Agreed.


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Kyle Bastian




The only question is what about Bill Foster? Should he return to life and join an Avengers team or should we keep him dead? Also, if Bill is brought back, I hope we don't use the racist name of Black Goliath and call him Giant-Man like he was in the 1980s.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Out of curiosity, will Hank and Jan be added to an Avengers team after Secret Wars? I wouldn't mind one or both of them being added to the main team. Here's how I'd picture the teams (if Hank and Jan return):



    Quote:
    Avengers: Iron Man, Captain America (Falcon), Vision, Nova (Alexander), Thor (Foster), Spider-Man (Morales), Ms. Marvel (Khan), Hank Pym, and Wasp



    Quote:
    Uncanny Avengers: Steve Rogers, Spider-Man (Parker), Brother Voodoo, Human Torch, Quicksilver, Rogue, Synapse (I think that's her name), Deadpool, and Scarlet Witch



    Quote:
    New Avengers: Songbird, Hawkeye, Sunspot, Squirrel Girl, Wiccan, Hulkling, Power Man, White Tiger, and Ant-Man (Lang)



    Quote:
    I still think it's injustice to leave out Hank, Jan, and Ant-Man from the Avengers.


I don't mind one or the other but I don't really want to see Hank and Jan on the same team.

To me it just makes Jan look weak. I know he only hit her once but I cringe any time Jan is nice to him or is romantic with him. (and yes I agree that the smack was character assassination...but he was still a needy little weirdo before that).

To me Hank is kind of a co-dependent leech always bringing Jan down with his constant neediness and psychological issues. I think part of the reason he got with Jan was because she resembled his first wife Maria. Nutcase.

Hank isn't an interesting character unless he has Jan around...yet she's better off without him. Seriously there is nothing to Hank except building Ultron and smacking Jan (maybe feuding with Egghead...but that's it). He has no real family, no friends outside work (or predating the Avengers that we know of), no interests outside science, we know next to nothing about his life before he was Ant Man, no deep friendships amongst his fellow Avengers. Hank is hollow.

Jan is better off without Hank...and not just because of the smack. He's just this blonde sack of misery that brings everyone down with his relationship issues, his mental health issues and Ultron.

Reverend Meteor (do we even know what city Pym was born in?)


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padlock




But Reverend, a character is only as good as the writing. And to be fair to Hank Pym, the writing for superheroes before the late 1970s was quite generic. There was really no difference between Hank Pym and Aquaman, Flash, Batman, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Daredevil, Cap, etc. It was only in the '70s that the industry started to give the characters very distinct personalities. And Pym did get the short end of the stick. He was a secondary Avenger, and didn't get the face time of the big 3, or even Hawkeye, Vision and the Beast. I actually thought his nervous breakdown was the beginning of some character development for him. He was interesting right through the whole Egghead story. And then the wrote him off the team. Until West Coast Avengers, when he got far more boring than he ever was before(all due to bad writing). Busiek managed to rekindle some interest in him when he wrote that Pym had used his own mind when giving Ultron artificial intelligence. But that was never fully developed after Busiek left.

Pym was never in my top ten favorite Avengers(Jan is though). But I never thought he was a bad character. Just a neglected one.


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padlock




Jan is a great character, but her powers are small potatoes. So, maybe contemporary writers dislike having to write a character that shrinks, and fires stingers(even with the power upgrade to those blasts). It's too bad, because she's one the few fully developed female characters.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    But Reverend, a character is only as good as the writing. And to be fair to Hank Pym, the writing for superheroes before the late 1970s was quite generic. There was really no difference between Hank Pym and Aquaman, Flash, Batman, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Daredevil, Cap, etc. It was only in the '70s that the industry started to give the characters very distinct personalities. And Pym did get the short end of the stick. He was a secondary Avenger, and didn't get the face time of the big 3, or even Hawkeye, Vision and the Beast. I actually thought his nervous breakdown was the beginning of some character development for him. He was interesting right through the whole Egghead story. And then the wrote him off the team. Until West Coast Avengers, when he got far more boring than he ever was before(all due to bad writing). Busiek managed to rekindle some interest in him when he wrote that Pym had used his own mind when giving Ultron artificial intelligence. But that was never fully developed after Busiek left.



(I'll give you the breakdown and the road back being interesting)


But still I would say almost every other Avenger (pre-Hickman...reading his original characters is like watching paint dry) is more developed than Pym. They have friends, families, hometowns, interests outside of heroics and science. They've never really developed the guy's backstory prior to being Ant Man...we know his 1st wife was killed by Soviet Agents...and they've never really expounded on that...we thought she was alive as SODAM once but they revealed that was false fairly soon...ruining the first real chance to learn more about Pym.





    Quote:
    Pym was never in my top ten favorite Avengers(Jan is though). But I never thought he was a bad character. Just a neglected one.


Maybe "bad" is the wrong word. I would say underdeveloped. After all these years we know next to nothing about him. So what happens...you see Pym take focus in a story and the story almost always revolves around his relationship with Jan or his relationship with Ultron. At least Avengers Academy tried to play up that he has a kinda sorta son with Tigra via a shapeshifting Skrull proxy.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Jan is a great character, but her powers are small potatoes. So, maybe contemporary writers dislike having to write a character that shrinks, and fires stingers(even with the power upgrade to those blasts). It's too bad, because she's one the few fully developed female characters.


Yeah I feel like everyone else in the Marvel Universe has moved up from what they started as power wise but Jan.

Of course they did try to fix that once and we got the butterfly Jan...


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padlock




I'm curious about what you thought about Pym's portrayal on Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes? I thought that was a fairly decent attempt to make Hank interesting. And I think it's the direction Marvel should take with him in the future.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    I'm curious about what you thought about Pym's portrayal on Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes? I thought that was a fairly decent attempt to make Hank interesting. And I think it's the direction Marvel should take with him in the future.


I'll have to rewatch. I own the dvds and I've watched all the episodes but I'm drawing a blank on how I felt about Hank one way or the other.

I remember for the most part being very pleased with the characterizations on the show.


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

    Revisiting some of the marvellous Gene Colan-era Avengers stories made me realise just how much I really do miss Janet Van-Dyne. Are the days of Roger Stern/Steve Englehart in the late 80s really the last time The Wasp received significant exposure in The Avengers...?



    Quote:
    With differing Avengers books at any one time and No Janey Van Dyne Just what is it modern writers dislike about her? Any thoughs?


I don't know, but she's one of my favorite characters - a funny, spoiled heiress and fashion designer with a strong heart and long history. What's not to like? Jan is one of Marvel's earliest female superheroes along with Sue and Jean, and deserves a lot more respect than Marvel's given her. The only thing writers can dislike about her is that Remender might have ruined her or written her into a corner with her awful storyline with Havoc.





How to make an entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfMiOlIUGQw
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The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 564


I was just rewatching those on Netflix and I liked the way they handled Hank and really like how they handled jan. She was obviously younger then the current 616 Jan but smart, sassy and fun is the way to go with the Wasp. I liked the handling of Hank in the Mighty Avengers when Slott turned him into the Wasp. I hated the name change but he led the team well.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    I was just rewatching those on Netflix and I liked the way they handled Hank and really like how they handled jan. She was obviously younger then the current 616 Jan but smart, sassy and fun is the way to go with the Wasp. I liked the handling of Hank in the Mighty Avengers when Slott turned him into the Wasp. I hated the name change but he led the team well.


I didn't like the name change either but when I stopped and thought about it I was being sexist.

Female characters inherit the mantle of male superheroes all the time. It was rather novel that a man used a woman's moniker. I wouldn't have liked for Hank to take a name that was gender specific like Ms. Marvel but Wasp worked.

Reverend Meteor (ooh he really should have went with Black Widower)


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086


I liked that portrayal too. Slott portrayed him as an unpredictable oddball - someone too smart for his own good, essentially. He was definitely weird (maybe a little bit crazy), and that made him fun to read. When was the last time Hank Pym was fun to read? I'd love to read more about a full-blown rivalry between Pym and Reed Richards.

I also liked both the EMH portrayal and the Ant Man movie portrayal.




"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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