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Author
Daveym

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



I may be the only person who very much liked him initially, but I find myself recalling what an unusual and daring choice Doctor Druid was for the team back in the final days of Roger Stern's run. Anthony Druid was not at all atypical Avengers material, and yet thanks largely to Roger Sterns skill with character and plotting he seemed like such a natural risk to take at that point I acceptd his entry to the team in the same spirit I accepted Stern's other choices with Captain Marvel and Starfox. Superhero teams, especially The Avengers, have always enjoyed taking chances with the most unlikely of membership candidates. And yet looking back from todays oerspective how many of these maverick choices were successful in their own right? For instance as it stands now would the likes of Starfox, The Swordsman or Doctor Druid be acceptable with the audience and team dynamic considering everything done with the characters since they were Avengers first...?

How does an Avenger become Damaged Goods? And which ex-members do you consider to be so damaged (or particularly problematic) as to be difficult to revive for the team?



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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

    I may be the only person who very much liked him initially, but I find myself recalling what an unusual and daring choice Doctor Druid was for the team back in the final days of Roger Stern's run. Anthony Druid was not at all atypical Avengers material, and yet thanks largely to Roger Sterns skill with character and plotting he seemed like such a natural risk to take at that point I acceptd his entry to the team in the same spirit I accepted Stern's other choices with Captain Marvel and Starfox. Superhero teams, especially The Avengers, have always enjoyed taking chances with the most unlikely of membership candidates. And yet looking back from todays perspective how many of these maverick choices were successful in their own right? For instance as it stands now would the likes of Starfox, The Swordsman or Doctor Druid be acceptable with the audience and team dynamic considering everything done with the characters since they were Avengers first...?



    Quote:
    How does an Avenger become Damaged Goods? And which ex-members do you consider to be so damaged (or particularly problematic) as to be difficult to revive for the team?


Scarlet Witch (never recovered from what Byrne did to her)

Vision (ditto)

Mantis (she got pimped out by trees)

Carol Danvers...I mean they've made her a popular character again...but the whole Marcus thing ruined her. So did Rogue stealing her memories. The wonderful character from the original Ms. Marvel series really isn't there anymore and Carol's just a pod person.

Moondragon...I think that time she raped Thor kind of ruins her. She's not much better than Marcus. I kind of felt relived when they made her a lesbian...it made her seem less rapey.

Hank Pym...he'll never get over the slap. Peter Parker can backhand his pregnant wife but one devil annulment later and there's no reason to ever bring it up again. Maybe if Pym had Mephisto as his divorce lawyer his career would have been better for it.

Sersi...her popularity never really recovered from going crazy after the whole Gatherers/Dane romancing Crystal stuff.

Justice...Busiek ruined the character for me. Nicieza had turned Vance into a great character in New Warriors and Busiek just pooped all over it. He got over being a fanboy...for God sakes he ran the New Warriors and had spent a year in jail for killing his abusive father. He'd grown past being the geek.

Captain America...Hickman just recently ruined him utterly for me. His irrational attitude towards the Illuminati and putting the entire multiverse in danger to further a grudge made me really dislike him. I mean if Cap wasn't such a dick the multiverse might have survived.

Rage...this never seems to come up when he's lending a hand to the Avengers but in New Warriors he did execute the gang leader responsible for his grandmother's murder and then Night Thrasher 1 helped him cover it up. That said...I would have done the same thing.




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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086



    Quote:

      Quote:

      I may be the only person who very much liked him initially, but I find myself recalling what an unusual and daring choice Doctor Druid was for the team back in the final days of Roger Stern's run. Anthony Druid was not at all atypical Avengers material, and yet thanks largely to Roger Sterns skill with character and plotting he seemed like such a natural risk to take at that point I acceptd his entry to the team in the same spirit I accepted Stern's other choices with Captain Marvel and Starfox. Superhero teams, especially The Avengers, have always enjoyed taking chances with the most unlikely of membership candidates. And yet looking back from todays perspective how many of these maverick choices were successful in their own right? For instance as it stands now would the likes of Starfox, The Swordsman or Doctor Druid be acceptable with the audience and team dynamic considering everything done with the characters since they were Avengers first...?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        How does an Avenger become Damaged Goods? And which ex-members do you consider to be so damaged (or particularly problematic) as to be difficult to revive for the team?



    Quote:
    Scarlet Witch (never recovered from what Byrne did to her)

Agreed.

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    Vision (ditto)

Agreed.

    Quote:
    Mantis (she got pimped out by trees)

She had a nice renaissance for awhile in DnA's GotG. But then she disappeared again.

    Quote:
    Carol Danvers...I mean they've made her a popular character again...but the whole Marcus thing ruined her. So did Rogue stealing her memories. The wonderful character from the original Ms. Marvel series really isn't there anymore and Carol's just a pod person.

Yeah. I just can't get over that story. Plus I don't appreciate Marvel's attempts to make her their Wonder Woman. I think that role belongs to She-Hulk.

    Quote:
    Moondragon...I think that time she raped Thor kind of ruins her. She's not much better than Marcus. I kind of felt relived when they made her a lesbian...it made her seem less rapey.

Again, I liked her in GotG, and I liked her in a relationship with Phyla-Vell.

    Quote:
    Hank Pym...he'll never get over the slap. Peter Parker can backhand his pregnant wife but one devil annulment later and there's no reason to ever bring it up again. Maybe if Pym had Mephisto as his divorce lawyer his career would have been better for it.

This one I disagree with. My first exposure to Pym was in WCA's redemption arc. I felt he was redeemed entirely, but then subsequent writers kept bringing up the slap. That made me dislike the work of those writers. Also - I really liked Slott's oddball take on the guy in Mighty Avengers.

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    Sersi...her popularity never really recovered from going crazy after the whole Gatherers/Dane romancing Crystal stuff.

Took a break from comics in the 90's, so I missed her whole tenure on Avengers. I would think she would suffer from Monica Rambeau Syndrome - too powerful for most writers to know what to do with.

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    Justice...Busiek ruined the character for me. Nicieza had turned Vance into a great character in New Warriors and Busiek just pooped all over it. He got over being a fanboy...for God sakes he ran the New Warriors and had spent a year in jail for killing his abusive father. He'd grown past being the geek.

Never read a lot of New Warriors, but I definitely didn't like him on the Avengers.

    Quote:
    Captain America...Hickman just recently ruined him utterly for me. His irrational attitude towards the Illuminati and putting the entire multiverse in danger to further a grudge made me really dislike him. I mean if Cap wasn't such a dick the multiverse might have survived.

Oh, the agreement.... Now Movie Cap is the only Cap for me. Comics Cap is a reckless, sanctimonious moron.

    Quote:
    Rage...this never seems to come up when he's lending a hand to the Avengers but in New Warriors he did execute the gang leader responsible for his grandmother's murder and then Night Thrasher 1 helped him cover it up. That said...I would have done the same thing.

Again, I missed his whole tenure. Not that sorry about it - I always thought that Nova (Dick Rider) should have had first crack at being an Avenger (moreso than Rage or Justice). Annihilation proved me right - while Steve Rogers and Tony Stark squabbled and wrestled in the dirt, Nova was standing tall and saving the entire galaxy.

I would also add Starfox to the list (like Daveym hinted at). Unfortunately I think it was Roger Stern himself who ruined the guy, the moment he revealed the roofie powers in #248.

You could make a case that Jan and Clint are ruined for their poorly conceived tryst. Very poor form, considering that Hank is their good friend and was hurt by their actions. Then again, you could just ignore anything written by Chuck Austen for your own good. Ditto for She-Hulk and the Juggernaut (UGH!!!).

I would make a stronger case that Clint is ruined for what he did to a brain-damaged Wanda. That was ugly in the extreme. It's hard to look at the guy the same way now. He has also lost his brashness and his humor, which is what I liked about him. They've made him into his Ultimate counterpart, and now I really don't care for him.

Sentry deserves a place on any list like this.

And lastly, Namor. After throwing in with Thanos and the Cabal, he is now a full-fledged villain. He can never be an Avenger again. The good news is that he's FAR more interesting as a villain.




"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Carol Danvers...I mean they've made her a popular character again...but the whole Marcus thing ruined her. So did Rogue stealing her memories. The wonderful character from the original Ms. Marvel series really isn't there anymore and Carol's just a pod person.

Even Kelly Sue DeConnick felt the need to write her into having a Kree-implanted brain lesion, after recovering from which she's got many missing memories of her life. I mean, really, is she just going to keep running through that same mental violation over and over again? I'm not even sure the Marcus Incident was the worst thing to happen to her anymore.


    Quote:
    Moondragon...I think that time she raped Thor kind of ruins her. She's not much better than Marcus. I kind of felt relived when they made her a lesbian...it made her seem less rapey.



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    Hank Pym...he'll never get over the slap. Peter Parker can backhand his pregnant wife but one devil annulment later and there's no reason to ever bring it up again. Maybe if Pym had Mephisto as his divorce lawyer his career would have been better for it.

To be honest, I think what Clint did in this months Hawkeye is worse than what Pym did.


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    Sersi...her popularity never really recovered from going crazy after the whole Gatherers/Dane romancing Crystal stuff.

Yeah. She's another female victimized into nigh worthlessness.


    Quote:
    Captain America...Hickman just recently ruined him utterly for me. His irrational attitude towards the Illuminati and putting the entire multiverse in danger to further a grudge made me really dislike him. I mean if Cap wasn't such a dick the multiverse might have survived.

He did not put the multiverse in danger. There was no hope for the multiverse, regardless of what Steve did. And he had every right and reason to be angry at the Illuminati for their crime. It is they who are damaged goods, imo. Every. Last. One of them.




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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Clint was Wanda's victim. She took advantage of him. He clearly was barely conscious.

And of course, now retconned into a Doom-controlled Wanda-bot.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

        I may be the only person who very much liked him initially, but I find myself recalling what an unusual and daring choice Doctor Druid was for the team back in the final days of Roger Stern's run. Anthony Druid was not at all atypical Avengers material, and yet thanks largely to Roger Sterns skill with character and plotting he seemed like such a natural risk to take at that point I acceptd his entry to the team in the same spirit I accepted Stern's other choices with Captain Marvel and Starfox. Superhero teams, especially The Avengers, have always enjoyed taking chances with the most unlikely of membership candidates. And yet looking back from todays perspective how many of these maverick choices were successful in their own right? For instance as it stands now would the likes of Starfox, The Swordsman or Doctor Druid be acceptable with the audience and team dynamic considering everything done with the characters since they were Avengers first...?

        Quote:

          Quote:
          How does an Avenger become Damaged Goods? And which ex-members do you consider to be so damaged (or particularly problematic) as to be difficult to revive for the team?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Scarlet Witch (never recovered from what Byrne did to her)

      Agreed.

        Quote:
        Vision (ditto)

      Agreed.

        Quote:
        Mantis (she got pimped out by trees)

      She had a nice renaissance for awhile in DnA's GotG. But then she disappeared again.

        Quote:
        Carol Danvers...I mean they've made her a popular character again...but the whole Marcus thing ruined her. So did Rogue stealing her memories. The wonderful character from the original Ms. Marvel series really isn't there anymore and Carol's just a pod person.

      Yeah. I just can't get over that story. Plus I don't appreciate Marvel's attempts to make her their Wonder Woman. I think that role belongs to She-Hulk.

        Quote:
        Moondragon...I think that time she raped Thor kind of ruins her. She's not much better than Marcus. I kind of felt relived when they made her a lesbian...it made her seem less rapey.

      Again, I liked her in GotG, and I liked her in a relationship with Phyla-Vell.

        Quote:
        Hank Pym...he'll never get over the slap. Peter Parker can backhand his pregnant wife but one devil annulment later and there's no reason to ever bring it up again. Maybe if Pym had Mephisto as his divorce lawyer his career would have been better for it.

      This one I disagree with. My first exposure to Pym was in WCA's redemption arc. I felt he was redeemed entirely, but then subsequent writers kept bringing up the slap. That made me dislike the work of those writers. Also - I really liked Slott's oddball take on the guy in Mighty Avengers.

        Quote:
        Sersi...her popularity never really recovered from going crazy after the whole Gatherers/Dane romancing Crystal stuff.

      Took a break from comics in the 90's, so I missed her whole tenure on Avengers. I would think she would suffer from Monica Rambeau Syndrome - too powerful for most writers to know what to do with.

        Quote:
        Justice...Busiek ruined the character for me. Nicieza had turned Vance into a great character in New Warriors and Busiek just pooped all over it. He got over being a fanboy...for God sakes he ran the New Warriors and had spent a year in jail for killing his abusive father. He'd grown past being the geek.

      Never read a lot of New Warriors, but I definitely didn't like him on the Avengers.

        Quote:
        Captain America...Hickman just recently ruined him utterly for me. His irrational attitude towards the Illuminati and putting the entire multiverse in danger to further a grudge made me really dislike him. I mean if Cap wasn't such a dick the multiverse might have survived.

      Oh, the agreement.... Now Movie Cap is the only Cap for me. Comics Cap is a reckless, sanctimonious moron.

        Quote:
        Rage...this never seems to come up when he's lending a hand to the Avengers but in New Warriors he did execute the gang leader responsible for his grandmother's murder and then Night Thrasher 1 helped him cover it up. That said...I would have done the same thing.

      Again, I missed his whole tenure. Not that sorry about it - I always thought that Nova (Dick Rider) should have had first crack at being an Avenger (moreso than Rage or Justice). Annihilation proved me right - while Steve Rogers and Tony Stark squabbled and wrestled in the dirt, Nova was standing tall and saving the entire galaxy.



Rich has never been called Dick Rider. Nor should he be unless he becomes a gay porn star.


    Quote:
    I would also add Starfox to the list (like Daveym hinted at). Unfortunately I think it was Roger Stern himself who ruined the guy, the moment he revealed the roofie powers in #248.


I was admonished on the board several months back for implying Starfox is a bit rapey.

To be fair they did always try to explain he wasn't in fact a rapist...the power still kind of bothers me. It's like Marcus Immortus all over again. Marcus said he only subtly influenced Carol with his machines and that she already had feelings. Ok so Starfox only uses the power on people he has a shot with...but what if his powers made a woman who just thought he was cute sleep with him when she wouldn't have otherwise? If he has the power to influence women romantically then what is the point of having the power if he only uses it on the women he doesn't need to use it on?


    Quote:
    You could make a case that Jan and Clint are ruined for their poorly conceived tryst. Very poor form, considering that Hank is their good friend and was hurt by their actions. Then again, you could just ignore anything written by Chuck Austen for your own good. Ditto for She-Hulk and the Juggernaut (UGH!!!).


He smacked Jan. Can't feel sorry for him.

I think they revealed Juggernaut slept with an alternate reality She-Hulk. Best to just go with that explanation. But hey Jan banged Mangeto and (as recently revealed) Deadpool.


    Quote:
    I would make a stronger case that Clint is ruined for what he did to a brain-damaged Wanda. That was ugly in the extreme. It's hard to look at the guy the same way now. He has also lost his brashness and his humor, which is what I liked about him. They've made him into his Ultimate counterpart, and now I really don't care for him.


Didn't he just rape a Wanda robot that thought it had amnesia?


    Quote:
    Sentry deserves a place on any list like this.



    Quote:
    And lastly, Namor. After throwing in with Thanos and the Cabal, he is now a full-fledged villain. He can never be an Avenger again. The good news is that he's FAR more interesting as a villain.


I don't see Namor as a villain. I don't like Namor as a villain. I've always seen Quicksilver and Namor as contrarians and jerks but not truly evil.


I liked his series in the late 60's and 70's. He's really NOT a villain. He has his own code of honor that is separate from the regular good evil paradigm...he's a king. But even as a king he was more than fair (how many times did he gives Byrrah and Attuma a second chance?) Hickman really ruined him IMO but I think Namor had been devolved into this cynical hateful snarker much earlier. Namor used to value life even if he didn't always agree with the surface dwellers. Recent writers have removed Namor's honor and made him a twisted hateful man who revels in inflicting misery on his enemies and indifferent to the people caught in his wake. That's not the Namor I know.





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AssemblyRequired





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Carol Danvers...I mean they've made her a popular character again...but the whole Marcus thing ruined her. So did Rogue stealing her memories. The wonderful character from the original Ms. Marvel series really isn't there anymore and Carol's just a pod person.



      Quote:
      Even Kelly Sue DeConnick felt the need to write her into having a Kree-implanted brain lesion, after recovering from which she's got many missing memories of her life. I mean, really, is she just going to keep running through that same mental violation over and over again? I'm not even sure the Marcus Incident was the worst thing to happen to her anymore.





I had thought that Carol had gotten her memories back a very long time ago though Xavier's help, with the problem remaining that there were no emotions behind them. Like she was watching a movie of somebody else's life. The timeframe of this being before Rogue was in the X-Men.



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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Carol Danvers...I mean they've made her a popular character again...but the whole Marcus thing ruined her. So did Rogue stealing her memories. The wonderful character from the original Ms. Marvel series really isn't there anymore and Carol's just a pod person.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Even Kelly Sue DeConnick felt the need to write her into having a Kree-implanted brain lesion, after recovering from which she's got many missing memories of her life. I mean, really, is she just going to keep running through that same mental violation over and over again? I'm not even sure the Marcus Incident was the worst thing to happen to her anymore.



      Quote:



    Quote:
    I had thought that Carol had gotten her memories back a very long time ago though Xavier's help, with the problem remaining that there were no emotions behind them. Like she was watching a movie of somebody else's life. The timeframe of this being before Rogue was in the X-Men.

Right, she got those memories back, just not the emotions for them.

But now she's lost them again... or something (no clue which memories she's lost).




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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086



    Quote:

    Rich has never been called Dick Rider. Nor should he be unless he becomes a gay porn star.

Sad to say, I think this is the exact reason why Richard Rider has been replaced as a character. Certain writers lack maturity, in my opinion.

    Quote:
    I was admonished on the board several months back for implying Starfox is a bit rapey.



    Quote:
    To be fair they did always try to explain he wasn't in fact a rapist...the power still kind of bothers me. It's like Marcus Immortus all over again. Marcus said he only subtly influenced Carol with his machines and that she already had feelings. Ok so Starfox only uses the power on people he has a shot with...but what if his powers made a woman who just thought he was cute sleep with him when she wouldn't have otherwise? If he has the power to influence women romantically then what is the point of having the power if he only uses it on the women he doesn't need to use it on?

It reminds me of the time Magma was dating Empath. The writers went out of the way to enforce that their relationship was consensual. But with his powers, how could you tell? In my eyes, she was being victimized and none of the X-Men were doing anything about it.

    Quote:
    He smacked Jan. Can't feel sorry for him.

To each their own, then. In my eyes, he made a mistake in the middle of a mental breakdown, he paid for it, she forgave him, and it's over - if only the writers could let it lie.

    Quote:
    I think they revealed Juggernaut slept with an alternate reality She-Hulk. Best to just go with that explanation. But hey Jan banged Mangeto and (as recently revealed) Deadpool.

Forgot about Slott's very welcome retcon. As for Magneto - I'm not sure the original Secret Wars implied full on sex so much as attraction. Do we have an on-panel admission that they had sex? No comment on Deadpool.

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    Didn't he just rape a Wanda robot that thought it had amnesia?

It's no better. He didn't know she was a Doombot. "Mens rea", as the lawyers say.

    Quote:
    I don't see Namor as a villain. I don't like Namor as a villain. I've always seen Quicksilver and Namor as contrarians and jerks but not truly evil.



    Quote:

    I liked his series in the late 60's and 70's. He's really NOT a villain. He has his own code of honor that is separate from the regular good evil paradigm...he's a king. But even as a king he was more than fair (how many times did he gives Byrrah and Attuma a second chance?) Hickman really ruined him IMO but I think Namor had been devolved into this cynical hateful snarker much earlier. Namor used to value life even if he didn't always agree with the surface dwellers. Recent writers have removed Namor's honor and made him a twisted hateful man who revels in inflicting misery on his enemies and indifferent to the people caught in his wake. That's not the Namor I know.

Strikes against Namor in my mind:
1. Callously beheading his ex-wife Marina. I know the board generally disagrees with me on this. But suppose Sue was morphed into a monster. Could you see Reed beheading the monster and throwing its/Sue's head at Dr. Doom with a smirk on his face? And could you imagine the board defending it for him, and saying it was an act or mercy or self-defense? It was an extremely villainous act. Take what Pym did to Jan and multiply it by 100,000.
2. Extermination the Great Society's planet. The other Illuminati members, despite their intentions, couldn't commit genocide of billions, even to save trillions. Namor could, and he did, commit that genocide.
3. Countless more genocides committed alongside the Cabal. Sure he was a conflicted participant, but he did it just the same. And he played cruel little games with some of the doomed populations of these planets (kissing Sue before she is killed, for example).

No, there's no coming back for Namor. I enjoyed him as a Defender, and I enjoyed him in Stern's Avengers. But the past 20 years have not been kind to the guy. He is now Marvel's version of Black Adam - an antihero at best.




"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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Reverend Meteor






    Quote:
    Right, she got those memories back, just not the emotions for them.


I never liked that. She had a complicated relationship with her father and the older of her two brothers. It would be nice to know what she legitimately feels about them.



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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086



    Quote:
    Clint was Wanda's victim. She took advantage of him. He clearly was barely conscious.

I find it hard to buy that Clint was the victim. Let's look at his state of mind:
- Hurt that Wanda had hurt him.
- Looking for closure that he couldn't get.
- Confused that Wanda wasn't herself and couldn't give him answers.
- Says, "She's not here" to Wanda, about Wanda.

That last point is the most damning in my opinion. He knew she wasn't herself. Yes, he was emotional and hurting. But when "Wanda" made advances, a friend would recognize he shouldn't respond. But he did.

I saw no evidence that Clint wasn't in his right mind, or was being controlled in any way. I saw plenty of evidence that Wanda didn't know who Hawkeye was, or have any recollection of her life as an Avenger.


    Quote:
    And of course, now retconned into a Doom-controlled Wanda-bot.

Yes. So it should now be impossible to claim that Wanda's magic influenced Clint's behavior. He was hurting and thought sex would make him feel better, and she seemed willing. But given her behavior, "she" was in no position to consent, and Clint should have known that.





"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 40.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor





1. Callously beheading his ex-wife Marina. I know the board generally disagrees with me on this. But suppose Sue was morphed into a monster. Could you see Reed beheading the monster and throwing its/Sue's head at Dr. Doom with a smirk on his face? And could you imagine the board defending it for him, and saying it was an act or mercy or self-defense? It was an extremely villainous act. Take what Pym did to Jan and multiply it by 100,000.

Was this when the Master turned her into a monster? She was a threat to life on earth wasn't she?

(you know I don't recall them ever talking after her resurrection)


2. Extermination the Great Society's planet. The other Illuminati members, despite their intentions, couldn't commit genocide of billions, even to save trillions. Namor could, and he did, commit that genocide.

To me we can only blame Namor for the things he has the ability to know. He didn't know a few months later the entire multiverse would be destroyed and remade into Battleworld...he thought they still had time. What he did know (or what he believed) was that killing one earth saves two universes filled with sentient beings and buys them the time to solve the problem. For good or ill he has always championed his people and sought to protect the earth...so of course he's going to pick his own earth. Doing nothing would have destroyed both worlds. Destroying his own world would invalidate everything he ever fought for. Namor made the only decision he could make. Maybe he could have been nicer about it but it's hard to put a positive spin of genocide. But what he really did was save earth in the hopes someone would come up with a solution to the multiverse collapse. In his mind he was trying to save the most people. Who is really more honorable...the guy who kills a few to save everyone else or the guy who lets everyone die so he doesn't have to be a killer?

Namor made the tough call. It kind of reminded me of Sisko's questionable choice in Deep Space 9. He chose to lie to the Romulans and fabricator fake evidence to trick them into joining the Federation's side in the Dominion War. It got countless innocent Romulans killed...but he did it to save the Alpha Quadrant as a whole from being wiped out by the Dominion.

I don't like how Hickman writes Namor...but I don't really disagree with his choice either. It's not the first time he's destroyed a planet to save his own.


3. Countless more genocides committed alongside the Cabal. Sure he was a conflicted participant, but he did it just the same. And he played cruel little games with some of the doomed populations of these planets (kissing Sue before she is killed, for example).


I don't have this issue where he kissed Sue apparently.

To me that's not Namor.



    Quote:
    No, there's no coming back for Namor. I enjoyed him as a Defender, and I enjoyed him in Stern's Avengers. But the past 20 years have not been kind to the guy. He is now Marvel's version of Black Adam - an antihero at best.


That's the exact reason not to make him an antihero. They look exactly alike.


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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908



    Quote:

    1. Callously beheading his ex-wife Marina. I know the board generally disagrees with me on this. But suppose Sue was morphed into a monster. Could you see Reed beheading the monster and throwing its/Sue's head at Dr. Doom with a smirk on his face? And could you imagine the board defending it for him, and saying it was an act or mercy or self-defense? It was an extremely villainous act. Take what Pym did to Jan and multiply it by 100,000.



    Quote:
    Was this when the Master turned her into a monster? She was a threat to life on earth wasn't she?


This was in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men. I haven't read it in a long time but I believe that Norman Osborn sent the Marinna monster after the X-Men. Namor beheaded her and tossed the head on Norman's desk.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:

      1. Callously beheading his ex-wife Marina. I know the board generally disagrees with me on this. But suppose Sue was morphed into a monster. Could you see Reed beheading the monster and throwing its/Sue's head at Dr. Doom with a smirk on his face? And could you imagine the board defending it for him, and saying it was an act or mercy or self-defense? It was an extremely villainous act. Take what Pym did to Jan and multiply it by 100,000.

      Quote:

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        Was this when the Master turned her into a monster? She was a threat to life on earth wasn't she?



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    This was in Dark Reign: The List - X-Men. I haven't read it in a long time but I believe that Norman Osborn sent the Marinna monster after the X-Men. Namor beheaded her and tossed the head on Norman's desk.


Didn't she get better after that death too? I thought she was in a Alpha Flight limited series.

Reverend Meteor (wasn't there a subplot ages ago about her plodex offspring still being out there?)




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Well, there's an argument to be made that Marvel is damaged goods, ever since they gave decision making power to Joe Quesada.

As for the Avengers in particular, they've obviously butchered Wonder Man. I can't stomach looking at the Beast since they turned him into a dog. Starfox as a rapist is repugnant(and not consistent with his original characterization). Making Hawkeye more like his movie character is a fatal flaw(because Renner's portrayal is three layers of boring).

I've already disagreed with the Reverend on Pym, but I also never felt that Wanda and Vision were ruined by Byrne. Busiek did very well with both those characters. It was Bendis that took a torch to them.

Frankly, I don't know why anyone who enjoyed the Avengers in the '70s, '80s, and '90s would even read the contemporary stuff. Truly awful.


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,086



    Quote:
    Didn't she get better after that death too? I thought she was in a Alpha Flight limited series.

Yes, Marina is back among the living, along with the rest of Alpha Flight. Hopefully they will remain living for awhile now, even if they have to live in limbo most of the time.

    Quote:
    Reverend Meteor (wasn't there a subplot ages ago about her plodex offspring still being out there?)

I think so? That was so long ago, I doubt it will be raised again. No one is talking about the Plodex.





"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Well, there's an argument to be made that Marvel is damaged goods, ever since they gave decision making power to Joe Quesada.



    Quote:
    As for the Avengers in particular, they've obviously butchered Wonder Man. I can't stomach looking at the Beast since they turned him into a dog. Starfox as a rapist is repugnant(and not consistent with his original characterization). Making Hawkeye more like his movie character is a fatal flaw(because Renner's portrayal is three layers of boring).



    Quote:
    I've already disagreed with the Reverend on Pym, but I also never felt that Wanda and Vision were ruined by Byrne. Busiek did very well with both those characters. It was Bendis that took a torch to them.


How can you disagree about Wanda and Vision \:\)

They were practically unreadable from the late 80's to the early 2000's.

I like Byrne (which no one else does) but he did ruin Wanda and Vision. Utterly. He turned Vision into Data from TNG and drove Wanda insane...she even gave Simon an evil hanndjob in front of Agatha when she went around the bend!

Busiek tried to stabilize them and make them readable again. But really...the damage was already done. And his stupid retcon that Byrne was both right and wrong about the Vision and the Human Torch not being the same robot was just lazy and non committal....and Wanda looked like a stripper at a stag party half the time and was back to romancing that creep Simon.

It's not like Wanda was in any way compelling after Byrne (except for Busiek) nor was she interesting after Busiek. Busiek's run was the outlier in decades of crap writing for Wanda.

Wanda and Vision stopped being Wanda and Vision in Byrne's run. Now they're pod people whose motivations never make any sense. They've lost their minds, been recreated...they're like Theseus's Ship...every part of them has been replaced. Wanda's no longer a wife, a mother, the daughter of Magneto, her reputation has been ruined, her mentor Agatha is dead. She's been stripped of everything. And Vision got it even worse...his entire personality was wiped for YEARS.




    Quote:
    Frankly, I don't know why anyone who enjoyed the Avengers in the '70s, '80s, and '90s would even read the contemporary stuff. Truly awful.


The 90's weren't anything to be proud of.


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    Quote:
    I like Byrne (which no one else does) but he did ruin Wanda and Vision. Utterly. He turned Vision into Data from TNG and drove Wanda insane...she even gave Simon an evil hanndjob in front of Agatha when she went around the bend!


I have to agree about the handjob, but then, Byrne was always a little bit of a pervert. And whattaya mean nobody likes Byrne?? I love Byrne. He's my all-time favorite creator. He was merely trying to correct the damage done to Wanda and Vision by that awful 12 issue limited series, where Vision was given a dopey human personality. What always made the Vision great was his Spock-like personality, where logic reigned, but you occasionally got a glimpse of his human side. I think Byrne's efforts on WCA were meant to return Vision to that state. And Wanda's mental break was never meant to be permanent. Byrne had no idea that it was all subsequent writers would fixate upon. The failure to keep Vision and Wanda relevant falls on Bendis and his ilk.


    Quote:
    Busiek tried to stabilize them and make them readable again. But really...the damage was already done. And his stupid retcon that Byrne was both right and wrong about the Vision and the Human Torch not being the same robot was just lazy and non committal....and Wanda looked like a stripper at a stag party half the time and was back to romancing that creep Simon.


I was luke warm about Perez's costume design, but it wasn't stripper oriented, rather gypsy/belly dancer. Trying to give her an ethnic look, which I would think most would appreciate given how obsessed some are with diversity.


    Quote:
    Wanda and Vision stopped being Wanda and Vision in Byrne's run. Now they're pod people whose motivations never make any sense. They've lost their minds, been recreated...they're like Theseus's Ship...every part of them has been replaced. Wanda's no longer a wife, a mother, the daughter of Magneto, her reputation has been ruined, her mentor Agatha is dead. She's been stripped of everything. And Vision got it even worse...his entire personality was wiped for YEARS.


Absolutely true. But, how is that Byrne's fault? Most of what you mentioned occured after he left Marvel.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:
      I like Byrne (which no one else does) but he did ruin Wanda and Vision. Utterly. He turned Vision into Data from TNG and drove Wanda insane...she even gave Simon an evil hanndjob in front of Agatha when she went around the bend!



    Quote:
    I have to agree about the handjob, but then, Byrne was always a little bit of a pervert. And whattaya mean nobody likes Byrne?? I love Byrne. He's my all-time favorite creator. He was merely trying to correct the damage done to Wanda and Vision by that awful 12 issue limited series, where Vision was given a dopey human personality. What always made the Vision great was his Spock-like personality, where logic reigned, but you occasionally got a glimpse of his human side. I think Byrne's efforts on WCA were meant to return Vision to that state. And Wanda's mental break was never meant to be permanent. Byrne had no idea that it was all subsequent writers would fixate upon. The failure to keep Vision and Wanda relevant falls on Bendis and his ilk.


Well never let it be said I take up for Englehart. I didn't like his work on them either. Or anything else he ever did except his Silver Surfer run.

(is it just me or did Byrne and Engelhart take a perverse glee in retconning each others work?)



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Busiek tried to stabilize them and make them readable again. But really...the damage was already done. And his stupid retcon that Byrne was both right and wrong about the Vision and the Human Torch not being the same robot was just lazy and non committal....and Wanda looked like a stripper at a stag party half the time and was back to romancing that creep Simon.



    Quote:
    I was luke warm about Perez's costume design, but it wasn't stripper oriented, rather gypsy/belly dancer. Trying to give her an ethnic look, which I would think most would appreciate given how obsessed some are with diversity.


Well that would be like introducing an African character in a dashiki. But I guess we've seen that far too often anyways (looking at you wakandans).



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Wanda and Vision stopped being Wanda and Vision in Byrne's run. Now they're pod people whose motivations never make any sense. They've lost their minds, been recreated...they're like Theseus's Ship...every part of them has been replaced. Wanda's no longer a wife, a mother, the daughter of Magneto, her reputation has been ruined, her mentor Agatha is dead. She's been stripped of everything. And Vision got it even worse...his entire personality was wiped for YEARS.



    Quote:
    Absolutely true. But, how is that Byrne's fault? Most of what you mentioned occured after he left Marvel.


The stories he told with them are his fault (Vision's deconstruction and returning as Data-esque, Wanda losing her children, Wanda going insane etc).

The stories that were told after he left...I agree they are not his fault (it's not fair to blame Byrne for Bendis's Disassembled for example). But he should be faulted for the things he actually did do to them.





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Reverend Meteor





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      Clint was Wanda's victim. She took advantage of him. He clearly was barely conscious.

    I find it hard to buy that Clint was the victim. Let's look at his state of mind:
    - Hurt that Wanda had hurt him.
    - Looking for closure that he couldn't get.
    - Confused that Wanda wasn't herself and couldn't give him answers.
    - Says, "She's not here" to Wanda, about Wanda.



It's that age old question. If you unknowingly have sex with a robot who thinks she has amnesia did you rape the robot or did the robot rape you?



    Quote:
    That last point is the most damning in my opinion. He knew she wasn't herself. Yes, he was emotional and hurting. But when "Wanda" made advances, a friend would recognize he shouldn't respond. But he did.



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    I saw no evidence that Clint wasn't in his right mind, or was being controlled in any way. I saw plenty of evidence that Wanda didn't know who Hawkeye was, or have any recollection of her life as an Avenger.



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      And of course, now retconned into a Doom-controlled Wanda-bot.

    Yes. So it should now be impossible to claim that Wanda's magic influenced Clint's behavior. He was hurting and thought sex would make him feel better, and she seemed willing. But given her behavior, "she" was in no position to consent, and Clint should have known that.



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