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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,401


If Ultron was intending to use the Vision AGAINST the Avengers why the heck did he steal their "memory tape" of Simon Williams for downloading into the android when Wonder Man had redeemed himself before his death and died a hero?




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    Quote:
    If Ultron was intending to use the Vision AGAINST the Avengers why the heck did he steal their "memory tape" of Simon Williams for downloading into the android when Wonder Man had redeemed himself before his death and died a hero?


Because it was there. I assume if the Avengers had Millie the Model's memory tape on file the Vision would have gotten that one.

I think Ultron just needed a template of some sort to build Vision's personality.


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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,401



    Quote:
    Because it was there. I assume if the Avengers had Millie the Model's memory tape on file the Vision would have gotten that one.



    Quote:
    I think Ultron just needed a template of some sort to build Vision's personality.

Why not give Vizh his own, instead of that of his enemies? Still odd!





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I did some digging....

Steve Englehart gives us an answer in Avengers #135.

Ultron gets Jim Hammond's body from the Mad Thinker but realizes he is not up to the task of updating Hammond's body. Ultron realizes he needs Hammond's creator to update him and kidnaps Phineas Horton. When the Vision wakes up he has Jim's mind (Horton refused to delete it) and Vision attacks Ultron. Ultron defeats Vision and deletes the Jim Hammond personality and uses the Avengers memory tape he found to give Vision a blank personality.

Ultron didn't know whose mind he was giving to Vision he just found the tape in Pym's possession (maybe a later retcon changed this). The procedure was never meant to give Vision Simon's memories nor did that happen. Like I said earlier Ultron wanted a template to just build a new personality around...Ultron's goal never had anything to do with Simon...he just found the memory tape and used it to give Vision a baseline personality...Ultron was going to add to it after that.

Ultron didn't want a copy of himself as the issue points out. He wanted a son who would feel subservient to Ultron for creating him.





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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,401



    Quote:
    I did some digging....

Thanks:)


    Quote:
    Ultron gets Jim Hammond's body from the Mad Thinker but realizes he is not up to the task of updating Hammond's body. Ultron realizes he needs Hammond's creator to update him and kidnaps Phineas Horton. When the Vision wakes up he has Jim's mind (Horton refused to delete it) and Vision attacks Ultron. Ultron defeats Vision and deletes the Jim Hammond personality and uses the Avengers memory tape he found to give Vision a blank personality.

It’s interesting that Byrne ended up retconning this in Vision Quest.

A pity as it would perhaps have been interesting if when Simon's engrams were wiped from Vizh that Jim became the dominant personality and we didn’t have the plot with the original Human Torch restored.

Mind you, I can sort of see where Byrne was coming from as I was likewise never that happy with the revelation that Vision was the original Torch. He was just too physically different, as were his powers. I would much prefer if he’d been revealed as Horton's other android, Adam II or Volton. Adam II at least had the red skin. And his ability to shift his density perhaps due to some plot my a golden age villain that had trapped Aarkus within the dormant android.


    Quote:
    Ultron didn't know whose mind he was giving to Vision he just found the tape in Pym's possession (maybe a later retcon changed this). The procedure was never meant to give Vision Simon's memories nor did that happen.

Which doesn’t make much sense since what did Ultron expect a memory tape to contain but another individual’s personality that might undermine his ability to control Vizh? Weak plotting IMHO! “Oh, I just found a memory tape, I’ll use that and nothing can possibly go wrong!”




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    Quote:

      Quote:
      I did some digging....

    Thanks:)
      Quote:

        Quote:
        Ultron gets Jim Hammond's body from the Mad Thinker but realizes he is not up to the task of updating Hammond's body. Ultron realizes he needs Hammond's creator to update him and kidnaps Phineas Horton. When the Vision wakes up he has Jim's mind (Horton refused to delete it) and Vision attacks Ultron. Ultron defeats Vision and deletes the Jim Hammond personality and uses the Avengers memory tape he found to give Vision a blank personality.

      It’s interesting that Byrne ended up retconning this in Vision Quest.


One of my first comics ever was the one where Mockingbird shows Wanda's Vision's strewn out body in West Coast Avengers. That was literally my introduction to the character...the issue where we saw him disassembled. So I never had a lot of affection for Vision like everyone else. I kind of saw him as a toaster/dildo and found it creepy that Wanda had sex with him. So while everyone else hated Byrne's run on West Coast Avengers I was right there agreeing with him and enjoying it. Hell yeah dismantle Vision, get rid of those evil witchcraft babies and of course Wanda's crazier than an outhouse rat.


    Quote:
    A pity as it would perhaps have been interesting if when Simon's engrams were wiped from Vizh that Jim became the dominant personality and we didn’t have the plot with the original Human Torch restored.



    Quote:
    Mind you, I can sort of see where Byrne was coming from as I was likewise never that happy with the revelation that Vision was the original Torch. He was just too physically different, as were his powers. I would much prefer if he’d been revealed as Horton's other android, Adam II or Volton. Adam II at least had the red skin. And his ability to shift his density perhaps due to some plot my a golden age villain that had trapped Aarkus within the dormant android.


We're probably the only two people who didn't like Jim and Vision being the same person. To me making him the Vision wiped away Jim's autonomy and I really liked Jim in West Coast Avengers. And to me Byrne's idea had merit...we were told Jim's systems were just synthetic versions of human organs...the stuff Pym saw when he shrank down into Vision's systems wasn't anything like a human's organs. Vision always played up being a robot while Jim always played down being a robot. Vision is more interesting being his own thing anyways. Kurt Busiek's cop out resolution that Vision both was and wasn't Jim was worse than picking one side or the other.


    Quote:
    Ultron didn't know whose mind he was giving to Vision he just found the tape in Pym's possession (maybe a later retcon changed this). The procedure was never meant to give Vision Simon's memories nor did that happen.
    Which doesn’t make much sense since what did Ultron expect a memory tape to contain but another individual’s personality that might undermine his ability to control Vizh? Weak plotting IMHO! “Oh, I just found a memory tape, I’ll use that and nothing can possibly go wrong!”


I think there was something said about it creating brain pathways or something. Ultron needed a template to prevent Vision from being a drooling idiot or Jim Hammond but he intended to mold Vision from there.


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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,401



    Quote:
    One of my first comics ever was the one where Mockingbird shows Wanda's Vision's strewn out body in West Coast Avengers. That was literally my introduction to the character...the issue where we saw him disassembled. So I never had a lot of affection for Vision like everyone else. I kind of saw him as a toaster/dildo and found it creepy that Wanda had sex with him. So while everyone else hated Byrne's run on West Coast Avengers I was right there agreeing with him and enjoying it. Hell yeah dismantle Vision, get rid of those evil witchcraft babies and of course Wanda's crazier than an outhouse rat.

I get it. But it was a huge infringement on the previous character building that had been done with Vision. Have you since read Avengers #57?


    Quote:
    We're probably the only two people who didn't like Jim and Vision being the same person.

I know there are others;)


    Quote:
    To me making him the Vision wiped away Jim's autonomy and I really liked Jim in West Coast Avengers.

I completely agree.


    Quote:
    And to me Byrne's idea had merit...we were told Jim's systems were just synthetic versions of human organs...

The biggest problem re: OHT was Roy's later tale of him being able to save Jacqueline Farnsworth with a blood transfusion. I thought oil injections killed humans!?


    Quote:
    the stuff Pym saw when he shrank down into Vision's systems wasn't anything like a human's organs.

Yes I similarly noted that at the time of reading, so am befuddled how that plot point was used as the later justification for it being true.


    Quote:
    Vision always played up being a robot while Jim always played down being a robot.

Yep, which however is odd when you consider his brain patterns were based on those of Simon Williams. Mind you Wonder Man had a fairly wooden personality;)


    Quote:
    Vision is more interesting being his own thing anyways.

I agree with you 100%. But his being Adam II would have been cool too.


    Quote:
    Kurt Busiek's cop out resolution that Vision both was and wasn't Jim was worse than picking one side or the other.

Just as bad as his "every Crossing villain was a Space Phantom"!


    Quote:
    Ultron didn't know whose mind he was giving to Vision he just found the tape in Pym's possession (maybe a later retcon changed this). The procedure was never meant to give Vision Simon's memories nor did that happen.

No but he got his personality. And Simon redeemed himself before he died. So Ultron didn't do his research. Poor effort.


    Quote:
    I think there was something said about it creating brain pathways or something. Ultron needed a template to prevent Vision from being a drooling idiot or Jim Hammond but he intended to mold Vision from there.

Yeah but Ultron wasn't a drooling idiot. Why not use himself as the template but with some controls put in? Again the whole thing between Ultron and the Vision, and the Vision's origin needs a major clean-up.





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Whenever Ultron is involved he usually uses a template. Jan for Jocasta, Bobbi for Alkhema etc


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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,401



    Quote:
    Whenever Ultron is involved he usually uses a template. Jan for Jocasta, Bobbi for Alkhema etc

They only became templates to cover the earlier plothole I'm mentioning;)





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    Quote:

    They only became templates to cover the earlier plothole I'm mentioning;)


Which plothole again?

1. That Ultron couldn't upgrade the Human Torch on his own?

2. That Ultron gave Vision a memory tape and had no clue whose it was?

3. That Vision didn't get Simon's memories from the memory tape thus defeating the entire purpose of the memory tape to begin with?


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    The biggest problem re: OHT was Roy's later tale of him being able to save Jacqueline Farnsworth with a blood transfusion. I thought oil injections killed humans!?

His blood is like normal blood, just artificial. Not oil. Why do people automatically think oil? Remember Terminator? He's got what looks like blood in him. These beings were created to be human in every respect.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Vision always played up being a robot while Jim always played down being a robot.

    Yep, which however is odd when you consider his brain patterns were based on those of Simon Williams. Mind you Wonder Man had a fairly wooden personality;)

The process never really made carbon copies of anybody. Ultron was not Pym, either. It just laid the foundation. And no, Vizh never had Simon's personality. Simon was the completely opposite of wooden.




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Nathan Summers


Member Since: Fri Dec 26, 2014
Posts: 1,401



    Quote:
    2. That Ultron gave Vision a memory tape and had no clue whose it was?

That an Avenger villain would take one of their memory tapes without thinking through the implications that it might work to their advantage.






Read more of my theorising here:) http://fanfix.wordpress.com
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