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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 1,466


I have no desire to read this because it's usually listed as one of the worst Avengers issues (I remember Bendis trashing this in Wizard when he was starting his Avengers run.) and stories, but I was wondering if it's not as awful as it's reputation. I'm sure that it got retconned at this point anyway, but from what I understand, Ms. Marvel (Carol.)got raped and impregnated by: Immortus? Marcus, the Son of Kang? I don't understand either of those two characters, but I do remember one of them appearing in the (Somewhat underrated.) Kang War by Kurt Busiek. I remember the issue where he had Carol and Marcus talk and interact, but I couldn't get through the issue (I found it to be boring, and I didn't really care enough about the history between them.). Anyhow, is this true or was it blown out of proportion (Kind of like how people say that Hank was a big wife abuser when he only hit her once in a psychotic rage.)? I also hear that the Avengers just let it happen and watched as the bad guy took off. This kind of reminds me of the end of Disassembled when Cap just hands Wanda over to Magneto and he just takes off.

As to the original plan, I read that it was supposed to be the Supreme Intelligence who did this to her and or impregnated her. Would this have been better or have made any sense? Did she ever have the baby? This doesn't sound like other writers followed up on this. Did the Avengers really just abandon her like that? If it was followed up on, wasn't she mad?

Thanks for the help.


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,093


I don't think the disgust for this story is overblown, even slightly. In fact, I think it doesn't get brought up enough.

No, it wouldn't have been any better if the Supreme Intelligence was behind it. That's like asking whether it's better to be beaten to death with a hammer or a pipe. Either way, I'm still being beaten to death. The rape, itself, and the reactions of the team were what made the story so disgusting. It was horrible enough to put Carol through this, but on top of that, her team (her friends) acted completely, idiotically bizarre. To this day, I don't know how Carol sits with these people. I don't know how she trusts a single one of them to have her back in battle again.

Don't think it was retconned... but everything about Kang confuses me.




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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139


Here's one article on the rape and its aftermath:
The Rape of Ms. Marvel

I don't understand what's wrong with writers/editors in the comics industry. (Not all of them, obviously.) Why are they so against women? Sigmund Freud would have a field day here.

What we should have seen is Carol tearing Marcus to shreds with her bare hands. Or - far better - the rape shouldn't have happened at all. Who wants to read about rape in a super-hero comic?

Here's the article (embedded in another by the same author) that is most often referenced to express disgust with Avengers #200:
Carol Strickland on the Rape of Ms. Marvel







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    I have no desire to read this because it's usually listed as one of the worst Avengers issues (I remember Bendis trashing this in Wizard when he was starting his Avengers run.) and stories, but I was wondering if it's not as awful as it's reputation. I'm sure that it got retconned at this point anyway, but from what I understand, Ms. Marvel (Carol.)got raped and impregnated by: Immortus? Marcus, the Son of Kang? I don't understand either of those two characters, but I do remember one of them appearing in the (Somewhat underrated.) Kang War by Kurt Busiek. I remember the issue where he had Carol and Marcus talk and interact, but I couldn't get through the issue (I found it to be boring, and I didn't really care enough about the history between them.). Anyhow, is this true or was it blown out of proportion (Kind of like how people say that Hank was a big wife abuser when he only hit her once in a psychotic rage.)? I also hear that the Avengers just let it happen and watched as the bad guy took off. This kind of reminds me of the end of Disassembled when Cap just hands Wanda over to Magneto and he just takes off.



    Quote:
    As to the original plan, I read that it was supposed to be the Supreme Intelligence who did this to her and or impregnated her. Would this have been better or have made any sense? Did she ever have the baby? This doesn't sound like other writers followed up on this. Did the Avengers really just abandon her like that? If it was followed up on, wasn't she mad?



    Quote:
    Thanks for the help.


When I was a kid I found this as a back issue at a flea market and liked it but I tend to like those weird pregnancy storylines.

The writer's intent wasn't for it to be rape IMO. The rape interpretation comes from a line where Marcus says he used a subtle mind control boost of Immortus's machines to make Carol his (and yes that's rape...but the writer didn't see it that way IMO). According to Marcus he could have made Carol his from the very start with the mind control machines but he wanted to win her heart so he plucked people from history like Beethoven, Shakespeare and Marine Antoinette to help him woo her and after weeks she finally gave in with the help of the boost of Immortus machines.

The story as written makes it sound like Carol running off with this dude who had his way with her in limbo and later gave birth to him on earth was her happily ever after (literally the last 3 words of the issue). The Avengers are happy for her and Hawkeye is even depressed he destroyed Marcus's machines as he was going to bring about peace on earth or something. Earlier in the issue the Avengers are thrilled Ms. Marvel had a baby and can't seem to fathom why she wanted nothing to do with him.

Chris Claremont (rightfully so) later said it was rape and had Carol take the Avengers to task for letting her run off into the sunset with her mind controlling rapist. IMO if Marcus was messing with Carol's mind he was probably messing with the Avengers minds but a part of me legitimately feels they really are just that stupid and out of touch.

All of this could have been avoided if Avengers #200 had left out the line "admittedly with a subtle boost from Immortus's machines...you became mine". If that line had been left out of the story it wouldn't have been a rape IMO. I've always wondered if an editor threw in that bit by mistake and it radically changed the context of the story . I really don't think the writer (David Michelinie) thought of Marcus as a rapist at all. I suspect the issue was heavily edited as the story's plot is credited to Shooter, Layton, Michelinie and Perez...so it sounds like the story was sort of amalgam of all of their ideas. The story was cobbled together for an anniversary issue and I think no one noticed that they had implied Carol ran off with her rapist and the Avengers wished her well.

I would read it. It's an interesting piece of Avengers history at the very least.

Reverend Meteor (to be honest I don't see much difference in what Marcus did and what Starfox does with his powers)





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CyberCoyote-=^..^-=

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Location: The Negative Zone
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,446


She drank a lot and forgot it. Actually, in modern comics has this ever actually taken place, or has it been retconned?




Pull List: Fantastic Four-Immortal Hulk-Capt America-Dr Strange- X-Men
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    I don't think the disgust for this story is overblown, even slightly. In fact, I think it doesn't get brought up enough.



    Quote:
    No, it wouldn't have been any better if the Supreme Intelligence was behind it. That's like asking whether it's better to be beaten to death with a hammer or a pipe. Either way, I'm still being beaten to death. The rape, itself, and the reactions of the team were what made the story so disgusting. It was horrible enough to put Carol through this, but on top of that, her team (her friends) acted completely, idiotically bizarre. To this day, I don't know how Carol sits with these people. I don't know how she trusts a single one of them to have her back in battle again.


I think the best out is just to say Marcus used his machines to influence the Avengers as well (Hawkeye and Iron Man's interaction on the last page in particular just seems nutty). If Marcus was influencing Carol into loving him then let's just take it a step further and say he influenced the Avengers into seeing his point of view.

That said...a part of me does feel like the Avengers really are this dense. Any time a heavy issue comes up for the female members like rape, unwanted pregnancy, spousal abuse etc the Avengers tend to drop the ball.

Reverend Meteor (come to think of it Marcus isn't just a rapist...he's also the product of rape between Immortus and some poor woman he brought to Limbo)







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689







    Quote:
    I don't understand what's wrong with writers/editors in the comics industry. (Not all of them, obviously.) Why are they so against women? Sigmund Freud would have a field day here.



    Quote:
    What we should have seen is Carol tearing Marcus to shreds with her bare hands. Or - far better - the rape shouldn't have happened at all. Who wants to read about rape in a super-hero comic?


I don't believe the writer intended for it to be viewed as a rape. If you read the issue the author's intent seems to be to give Carol a happily ever after ending.

Was it a rape? Sure. But I think an additional writer (4 people are credited for the plot) or an editor clumsily added the line about the boost of Marcus's mind control machine. That changed the context of the story but the story itself implies it isn't a rape by the time Marcus and Carol talk she seems genuinely into him. Earlier in the story she acts like she was used but by the time she talks with Marcus all seems forgiven.

Chris Claremont later (and rightly so) interpreted it as a rape. But the original intent of the story was not to portray a rape but to portray Carol getting a happily ever after that gets her out of the book. So it's a tad disingenuous to imply that showing a rape scene was their goal.







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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,936


An interesting point of view. I recall Bendis saying in an interview (around the time of Avengers Disassembled) that the traditional Avengers were defined by their mishandling of events they took part in (referencing Avengers 200 and Annual #10 specifically). In Disassembled, Hawkeye berates the team for moving from crisis to crisis without really dealing with the emotional issues around them - essentially blaming the Avengers for Wanda's breakdown. Do you agree with Bendis' interpretation?




And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,936


Avengers 200 is ridiculously tone-deaf. A woman is abducted, resists a seduction, has machines mind-control her into submitting to rape by the man who kidnapped her (an old enemy of the Avengers, by the way), gets pregnant from that rape, gives birth to her own rapist, is disgusted by her pregnancy and her child, watches that child grow into her adult rapist, and then gets a happily-ever-after ending with said rapist - and all her friends waved goodbye and felt great about it! If the writers really didn't see this as rape - what was wrong with them?

If there were two issues where the Avengers went completely off the rails, it was Avengers 200 (Carol's ordeal) and Avengers 213 (the infamous Hank Pym issue). Neither issue should have seen print.






And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    An interesting point of view. I recall Bendis saying in an interview (around the time of Avengers Disassembled) that the traditional Avengers were defined by their mishandling of events they took part in (referencing Avengers 200 and Annual #10 specifically). In Disassembled, Hawkeye berates the team for moving from crisis to crisis without really dealing with the emotional issues around them - essentially blaming the Avengers for Wanda's breakdown. Do you agree with Bendis' interpretation?


No. But if a hypothetical person that was not Bendis said that I would be quick to agree with them. If Bendis said that I must be wrong.





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    Avengers 200 is ridiculously tone-deaf. A woman is abducted, resists a seduction, has machines mind-control her into submitting to rape by the man who kidnapped her (an old enemy of the Avengers, by the way), gets pregnant from that rape, gives birth to her own rapist, is disgusted by her pregnancy and her child, watches that child grow into her adult rapist, and then gets a happily-ever-after ending with said rapist - and all her friends waved goodbye and felt great about it! If the writers really didn't see this as rape - what was wrong with them?


Slight correction. Marcus wasn't an old enemy of the Avengers...his father Immortus was. Marcus was conceived when Immortus did his own abduct a woman via time travel and rape her scenario. I think Marcus's mother was dying in a ship wreck when Immortus decided to snatch and woo her with mind bending technology. (you know I don't think Immortus cared much for Marcus...I don't think Immortus has ever talked about him).




    Quote:
    If there were two issues where the Avengers went completely off the rails, it was Avengers 200 (Carol's ordeal) and Avengers 213 (the infamous Hank Pym issue). Neither issue should have seen print.


I know 213 is infamous...but I think it's actually a GOOD issue. This was before the whole member of a super hero group goes bad or falls from grace fad a few years later. I thought the issues leading up to it were well...stinky...but that issue itself had one of the most interesting plots. Before that we were getting stuff about the Weathermen, some elf queen and a resurrection stone...yuk. To me that whole period was a bit of a slump until the slap.

And personally I loved the way Jan told Hank off in the next issue. Jan was oddly enough better off for the experience. If she hadn't stood up for herself and ditched Hank I don't think I could have seen her as Avengers leader later on. She asserted herself after that.

I guess if you like Hank issue 213 was horrible. But if you're like me and think Hank Pym is a burden that brings everyone around him down it reinforced how you feel about him.

Hank Pym is like Jerry from Rick and Morty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfxPwti4GY





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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    No. But if a hypothetical person that was not Bendis said that I would be quick to agree with them. If Bendis said that I must be wrong.


That's two good laughs for me in one day! Thank you!

I don't think issue #200 should be used to gauge anything long-term about the Avengers. The writers and editors messed up big time. They have this on their consciences. There's nothing intrinsic to the Avengers that made this story logical. It was illogical.








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Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,996



    Quote:
    I know 213 is infamous...but I think it's actually a GOOD issue. This was before the whole member of a super hero group goes bad or falls from grace fad a few years later. I thought the issues leading up to it were well...stinky...but that issue itself had one of the most interesting plots. Before that we were getting stuff about the Weathermen, some elf queen and a resurrection stone...yuk. To me that whole period was a bit of a slump until the slap.

    And personally I loved the way Jan told Hank off in the next issue. Jan was oddly enough better off for the experience. If she hadn't stood up for herself and ditched Hank I don't think I could have seen her as Avengers leader later on. She asserted herself after that.

    I guess if you like Hank issue 213 was horrible. But if you're like me and think Hank Pym is a burden that brings everyone around him down it reinforced how you feel about him.

    Hank Pym is like Jerry from Rick and Morty.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfxPwti4GY


I think that Hank Pym is the most shady of the founding members.

He has always been a mad scientist.


He wasn't afraid to practice genetic experiments on Janet.


What exactly did he hope & try to do when he was doing experiments on Dragon Man and created Ultron in the process ?


And, then, of course, there is the Yellowjacket split personality ...




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zeus


Location: Plano, IL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 521



    Quote:
    suspect the issue was heavily edited as the story's plot is credited to Shooter, Layton, Michelinie and Perez...so it sounds like the story was sort of amalgam of all of their ideas. The story was cobbled together for an anniversary issue and I think no one noticed that they had implied Carol ran off with her rapist and the Avengers wished her well.


I met Perez at a convention in Chicago in 2012, and had him sign Av #200, exactly for the reason you stated above, Rev, that it's an interesting piece of Avengers history. When I asked him about his role in co-plotting the issue, Perez denied doing any plotting he said "I just drew what I was told to draw." It felt rude to press the point by asking why he was credited as co-plotter...


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