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Panther Genes




Is the retcon still canon? What exactly were the major changes made - Something about Klaw's nationality, yes?

Thank you for any insight.


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Halo82




> Is the retcon still canon? What exactly were the major changes made - Something about Klaw's nationality, yes?
>
> Thank you for any insight.

Klaw is Dutch now.

As far as the retcon is concerned...who the hell knows.


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takufan4




> Is the retcon still canon? What exactly were the major changes made - Something about Klaw's nationality, yes?
>
> Thank you for any insight.

There are others on the board who know this detail better than I, but from the way I've read it, both the retcon AND the traditional are canon for this volume. Hudlin is doing what he wants to do. So he is using what he wants from T'Challa's past portrayals.


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Jer




> from the way I've read it, both the retcon AND the traditional are canon for this volume.

This is pretty much how it's being used, though it's not rationally possible.

Outside of the Black Panther title itself, Panther is generally treated as if his original history is still intact, but his marriage to Ororo and the new look of the Dora Milaje have been added on.

Within the Black Panther book we've seen a very inconsistent portrayal of T'Challa's history, starting with a complete retcon, then a slow assimilation of parts of T'Challa's original history, despite the fact that most of the two histories couldn't coexist.

- Jer


Posted with Mozilla 1.8.1.6 on MacOS X
Omar Karindu




That's when the Marvel Handbooks first started listing his place of birth as somewhere in the Netherlands.

The first six issues of the current series made him a Belgian cyborg assassin whom T'Challa killed and who never transformed into a being of solid sound. This has been ignored quite literally everywhere else.

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari on MacOS X
Loren




> Within the Black Panther book we've seen a very inconsistent portrayal of T'Challa's history, starting with a complete retcon, then a slow assimilation of parts of T'Challa's original history, despite the fact that most of the two histories couldn't coexist.



Right before the wedding, I did a big ol' analysis of why BP had to be a reboot. Every thing within the pages of the series up 'til that point pointed towards a complete reboot.



Then the wedding happened.



At the wedding, suddenly it was essential that T'Challa have a history with the Avengers, and with the West. You couldn't hype the issue if nobody had any relationships with the groom. So the guy who had seemingly met the X-Men and Luke Cage for the first time just a few issues earlier, was now old friends with Captain America and Iron Man and a whole slew of Marvel characters. The same Wakanda that had just expelled an overt American invasion and had been depicted as being heavily critical of the outside world, was now throwing open its doors to the entire outside world, and was having its royal ceremonies covered by American basic cable. Plus, as if to split the difference, Man-Ape shows up looking like his previous incarnation (the one who led a revolution, and murdered T'Challa's counterpart in cold blood), but behaving like a moron.



And since the wedding, most everything has been played as if T'Challa is a long-time player in the Marvel Universe. The same series that eschewed continuity a year earlier is suddenly having its characterizations justified by citation to obscure back-up features from the early 1970s. T'Challa's energy dagger reappears, but in the context of this series, it operates as an outright deus ex machina. Klaw's back to normal.



As you point out, the two histories don't fit together. Yet there's been relatively scant showing of this discrepancy within the pages of BP. I think that is because of what has been missing from this series.



Despite having run for over two and a half years, Hudlin has done close to nil in terms of developing a supporting cast for his book. He brought in Storm, and he's temporarily brought in Johnny and Ben. He created Shuri, who hasn't really done anything. He created T'Shan, who hasn't really done anything. I'm not sure he's created anyone else nameworthy.



At the same time, he's chosen to ignore earlier supporting characters. Pre-existing Wakandan characters (W'Kabi, Zuri, Taku) haven't been used. T'Challa's mother was used a bit, but her identity was kept vague for a long time. The Dora Milaje have been overhauled and stripped of names or any distinguishing characteristics or even simple characterization. Monica Lynne had a cameo, but only enough to illustrate that their history had been severely changed. Someone named Everett Ross bears little resemblance to the earlier Ross and shares none of the same history. The result of all this is that he doesn't have to address discrepancies in any of these relationships.



Similarly, he's avoided using Panther villains (or any other villains BP has fought in the past), and the few he's used have lost their history. Klaw appeared, but was overhauled to such an extent that he was only recognizable through his weapon. Man-Ape cameoed as a doofus. And then there was the Zanda appearance. (Come to think of it, Man-Ape got taken down by Spider-Man, and Zanda tangled with Storm; did T'Challa actually confront either of them?) Through these means, the series avoids addressing even the simple matter of whether T'Challa has fought a given villain before, much less what the particulars of their history are.



Finally, for a series that went to such effort to extol the virtues of Wakanda in its first arc, the country has been largely neglected ever since. Once the wedding was over, the series went on a world tour for four issues, to the US for the next five, and then into parallel alien worlds for at least the next six issues after that. Some characters have paid some lip service to the notion that T'Challa is neglecting his country, but it's the writer who's put him in that position. (Personally, I think that Hudlin painted himself into a corner. He set up a utopian Wakanda, and didn't realize until later how little story potential there is in the country he created. So he sends T'Challa off to fight zombies and Skrulls in a parallel universe instead.)


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.7 on Windows XP
takufan4




Really liked this and your link.

One small correction, though: W'Kabi has been used from the first arc onward. He's just so in the background (as you said about others, without any characteristics) you didn't notice him.

> > Within the Black Panther book we've seen a very inconsistent portrayal of T'Challa's history, starting with a complete retcon, then a slow assimilation of parts of T'Challa's original history, despite the fact that most of the two histories couldn't coexist.
>
>
>
> Right before the wedding, I did a big ol' analysis of why BP had to be a reboot. Every thing within the pages of the series up 'til that point pointed towards a complete reboot.
>
>
>
> Then the wedding happened.
>
>
>
> At the wedding, suddenly it was essential that T'Challa have a history with the Avengers, and with the West. You couldn't hype the issue if nobody had any relationships with the groom. So the guy who had seemingly met the X-Men and Luke Cage for the first time just a few issues earlier, was now old friends with Captain America and Iron Man and a whole slew of Marvel characters. The same Wakanda that had just expelled an overt American invasion and had been depicted as being heavily critical of the outside world, was now throwing open its doors to the entire outside world, and was having its royal ceremonies covered by American basic cable. Plus, as if to split the difference, Man-Ape shows up looking like his previous incarnation (the one who led a revolution, and murdered T'Challa's counterpart in cold blood), but behaving like a moron.
>
>
>
> And since the wedding, most everything has been played as if T'Challa is a long-time player in the Marvel Universe. The same series that eschewed continuity a year earlier is suddenly having its characterizations justified by citation to obscure back-up features from the early 1970s. T'Challa's energy dagger reappears, but in the context of this series, it operates as an outright deus ex machina. Klaw's back to normal.
>
>
>
> As you point out, the two histories don't fit together. Yet there's been relatively scant showing of this discrepancy within the pages of BP. I think that is because of what has been missing from this series.
>
>
>
> Despite having run for over two and a half years, Hudlin has done close to nil in terms of developing a supporting cast for his book. He brought in Storm, and he's temporarily brought in Johnny and Ben. He created Shuri, who hasn't really done anything. He created T'Shan, who hasn't really done anything. I'm not sure he's created anyone else nameworthy.
>
>
>
> At the same time, he's chosen to ignore earlier supporting characters. Pre-existing Wakandan characters (W'Kabi, Zuri, Taku) haven't been used. T'Challa's mother was used a bit, but her identity was kept vague for a long time. The Dora Milaje have been overhauled and stripped of names or any distinguishing characteristics or even simple characterization. Monica Lynne had a cameo, but only enough to illustrate that their history had been severely changed. Someone named Everett Ross bears little resemblance to the earlier Ross and shares none of the same history. The result of all this is that he doesn't have to address discrepancies in any of these relationships.
>
>
>
> Similarly, he's avoided using Panther villains (or any other villains BP has fought in the past), and the few he's used have lost their history. Klaw appeared, but was overhauled to such an extent that he was only recognizable through his weapon. Man-Ape cameoed as a doofus. And then there was the Zanda appearance. (Come to think of it, Man-Ape got taken down by Spider-Man, and Zanda tangled with Storm; did T'Challa actually confront either of them?) Through these means, the series avoids addressing even the simple matter of whether T'Challa has fought a given villain before, much less what the particulars of their history are.
>
>
>
> Finally, for a series that went to such effort to extol the virtues of Wakanda in its first arc, the country has been largely neglected ever since. Once the wedding was over, the series went on a world tour for four issues, to the US for the next five, and then into parallel alien worlds for at least the next six issues after that. Some characters have paid some lip service to the notion that T'Challa is neglecting his country, but it's the writer who's put him in that position. (Personally, I think that Hudlin painted himself into a corner. He set up a utopian Wakanda, and didn't realize until later how little story potential there is in the country he created. So he sends T'Challa off to fight zombies and Skrulls in a parallel universe instead.)


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Halo82




I could swear I heard that Klaw being Dutch was one of the changes Hudlin made. Oh well. Thanks for the correction.

> That's when the Marvel Handbooks first started listing his place of birth as somewhere in the Netherlands.
>
> The first six issues of the current series made him a Belgian cyborg assassin whom T'Challa killed and who never transformed into a being of solid sound. This has been ignored quite literally everywhere else.
>
> - Omar Karindu
>
> "A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom
>
> "It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey

*Disclaimer* I do not always think I'm right, I do not have a problem admitting I'm wrong, and I don't consider my opinion to be "fact". If I don't write IMO in front of everything I say or I don't tuck my tail between my legs everytime someone disagrees with me it's simply cause...I mean what I say. I don't say something unless I believe it to be true. So if someone tries to police my opinion or pick an arguement over something trivial all I'll simply say is "read the fine print" I also don't care If I make a grammatical or spelling error. Thank you, have a nice day, Hakuna Matata, Live long and Prosper.

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Renegade Comic Forum-Talk about comics with a minimum of modding.

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Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Halo82




> > Within the Black Panther book we've seen a very inconsistent portrayal of T'Challa's history, starting with a complete retcon, then a slow assimilation of parts of T'Challa's original history, despite the fact that most of the two histories couldn't coexist.
>
>
>
> Right before the wedding, I did a big ol' analysis of why BP had to be a reboot. Every thing within the pages of the series up 'til that point pointed towards a complete reboot.
>
>
>
> Then the wedding happened.
>
>
>
> At the wedding, suddenly it was essential that T'Challa have a history with the Avengers, and with the West. You couldn't hype the issue if nobody had any relationships with the groom. So the guy who had seemingly met the X-Men and Luke Cage for the first time just a few issues earlier, was now old friends with Captain America and Iron Man and a whole slew of Marvel characters. The same Wakanda that had just expelled an overt American invasion and had been depicted as being heavily critical of the outside world, was now throwing open its doors to the entire outside world, and was having its royal ceremonies covered by American basic cable. Plus, as if to split the difference, Man-Ape shows up looking like his previous incarnation (the one who led a revolution, and murdered T'Challa's counterpart in cold blood), but behaving like a moron.
>
>
>
> And since the wedding, most everything has been played as if T'Challa is a long-time player in the Marvel Universe. The same series that eschewed continuity a year earlier is suddenly having its characterizations justified by citation to obscure back-up features from the early 1970s. T'Challa's energy dagger reappears, but in the context of this series, it operates as an outright deus ex machina. Klaw's back to normal.
>
>
>
> As you point out, the two histories don't fit together. Yet there's been relatively scant showing of this discrepancy within the pages of BP. I think that is because of what has been missing from this series.
>
>
>
> Despite having run for over two and a half years, Hudlin has done close to nil in terms of developing a supporting cast for his book. He brought in Storm, and he's temporarily brought in Johnny and Ben. He created Shuri, who hasn't really done anything. He created T'Shan, who hasn't really done anything. I'm not sure he's created anyone else nameworthy.
>
>
>
> At the same time, he's chosen to ignore earlier supporting characters. Pre-existing Wakandan characters (W'Kabi, Zuri, Taku) haven't been used. T'Challa's mother was used a bit, but her identity was kept vague for a long time. The Dora Milaje have been overhauled and stripped of names or any distinguishing characteristics or even simple characterization. Monica Lynne had a cameo, but only enough to illustrate that their history had been severely changed. Someone named Everett Ross bears little resemblance to the earlier Ross and shares none of the same history. The result of all this is that he doesn't have to address discrepancies in any of these relationships.
>
>
>
> Similarly, he's avoided using Panther villains (or any other villains BP has fought in the past), and the few he's used have lost their history. Klaw appeared, but was overhauled to such an extent that he was only recognizable through his weapon. Man-Ape cameoed as a doofus. And then there was the Zanda appearance. (Come to think of it, Man-Ape got taken down by Spider-Man, and Zanda tangled with Storm; did T'Challa actually confront either of them?) Through these means, the series avoids addressing even the simple matter of whether T'Challa has fought a given villain before, much less what the particulars of their history are.
>
>
>
> Finally, for a series that went to such effort to extol the virtues of Wakanda in its first arc, the country has been largely neglected ever since. Once the wedding was over, the series went on a world tour for four issues, to the US for the next five, and then into parallel alien worlds for at least the next six issues after that. Some characters have paid some lip service to the notion that T'Challa is neglecting his country, but it's the writer who's put him in that position. (Personally, I think that Hudlin painted himself into a corner. He set up a utopian Wakanda, and didn't realize until later how little story potential there is in the country he created. So he sends T'Challa off to fight zombies and Skrulls in a parallel universe instead.)

*Disclaimer* I do not always think I'm right, I do not have a problem admitting I'm wrong, and I don't consider my opinion to be "fact". If I don't write IMO in front of everything I say or I don't tuck my tail between my legs everytime someone disagrees with me it's simply cause...I mean what I say. I don't say something unless I believe it to be true. So if someone tries to police my opinion or pick an arguement over something trivial all I'll simply say is "read the fine print" I also don't care If I make a grammatical or spelling error. Thank you, have a nice day, Hakuna Matata, Live long and Prosper.

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Renegade Comic Forum-Talk about comics with a minimum of modding.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Renegade_Comic_Forum/index.php?

Insurgency Comic Forum-Where ANYTHING goes.
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Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Loren




> > > Within the Black Panther book we've seen a very inconsistent portrayal of T'Challa's history, starting with a complete retcon, then a slow assimilation of parts of T'Challa's original history, despite the fact that most of the two histories couldn't coexist.
> >
> >
> >
> > Right before the wedding, I did a big ol' analysis of why BP had to be a reboot. Every thing within the pages of the series up 'til that point pointed towards a complete reboot.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then the wedding happened.
> >
> >
> >
> > At the wedding, suddenly it was essential that T'Challa have a history with the Avengers, and with the West. You couldn't hype the issue if nobody had any relationships with the groom. So the guy who had seemingly met the X-Men and Luke Cage for the first time just a few issues earlier, was now old friends with Captain America and Iron Man and a whole slew of Marvel characters. The same Wakanda that had just expelled an overt American invasion and had been depicted as being heavily critical of the outside world, was now throwing open its doors to the entire outside world, and was having its royal ceremonies covered by American basic cable. Plus, as if to split the difference, Man-Ape shows up looking like his previous incarnation (the one who led a revolution, and murdered T'Challa's counterpart in cold blood), but behaving like a moron.
> >
> >
> >
> > And since the wedding, most everything has been played as if T'Challa is a long-time player in the Marvel Universe. The same series that eschewed continuity a year earlier is suddenly having its characterizations justified by citation to obscure back-up features from the early 1970s. T'Challa's energy dagger reappears, but in the context of this series, it operates as an outright deus ex machina. Klaw's back to normal.
> >
> >
> >
> > As you point out, the two histories don't fit together. Yet there's been relatively scant showing of this discrepancy within the pages of BP. I think that is because of what has been missing from this series.
> >
> >
> >
> > Despite having run for over two and a half years, Hudlin has done close to nil in terms of developing a supporting cast for his book. He brought in Storm, and he's temporarily brought in Johnny and Ben. He created Shuri, who hasn't really done anything. He created T'Shan, who hasn't really done anything. I'm not sure he's created anyone else nameworthy.
> >
> >
> >
> > At the same time, he's chosen to ignore earlier supporting characters. Pre-existing Wakandan characters (W'Kabi, Zuri, Taku) haven't been used. T'Challa's mother was used a bit, but her identity was kept vague for a long time. The Dora Milaje have been overhauled and stripped of names or any distinguishing characteristics or even simple characterization. Monica Lynne had a cameo, but only enough to illustrate that their history had been severely changed. Someone named Everett Ross bears little resemblance to the earlier Ross and shares none of the same history. The result of all this is that he doesn't have to address discrepancies in any of these relationships.
> >
> >
> >
> > Similarly, he's avoided using Panther villains (or any other villains BP has fought in the past), and the few he's used have lost their history. Klaw appeared, but was overhauled to such an extent that he was only recognizable through his weapon. Man-Ape cameoed as a doofus. And then there was the Zanda appearance. (Come to think of it, Man-Ape got taken down by Spider-Man, and Zanda tangled with Storm; did T'Challa actually confront either of them?) Through these means, the series avoids addressing even the simple matter of whether T'Challa has fought a given villain before, much less what the particulars of their history are.
> >
> >
> >
> > Finally, for a series that went to such effort to extol the virtues of Wakanda in its first arc, the country has been largely neglected ever since. Once the wedding was over, the series went on a world tour for four issues, to the US for the next five, and then into parallel alien worlds for at least the next six issues after that. Some characters have paid some lip service to the notion that T'Challa is neglecting his country, but it's the writer who's put him in that position. (Personally, I think that Hudlin painted himself into a corner. He set up a utopian Wakanda, and didn't realize until later how little story potential there is in the country he created. So he sends T'Challa off to fight zombies and Skrulls in a parallel universe instead.)
>
> *Disclaimer* I do not always think I'm right, I do not have a problem admitting I'm wrong, and I don't consider my opinion to be "fact". If I don't write IMO in front of everything I say or I don't tuck my tail between my legs everytime someone disagrees with me it's simply cause...I mean what I say. I don't say something unless I believe it to be true. So if someone tries to police my opinion or pick an arguement over something trivial all I'll simply say is "read the fine print" I also don't care If I make a grammatical or spelling error. Thank you, have a nice day, Hakuna Matata, Live long and Prosper.
>
> Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
>
> Renegade Comic Forum-Talk about comics with a minimum of modding.
>
> http://s15.invisionfree.com/Renegade_Comic_Forum/index.php?
>
> Insurgency Comic Forum-Where ANYTHING goes.
> http://z10.invisionfree.com/Insurgency_Forums/index.php?act=idx


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.7 on Windows XP
Omar Karindu




> I could swear I heard that Klaw being Dutch was one of the changes Hudlin made. Oh well. Thanks for the correction.

Hudlin made him not-Dutch -- Belgian, in fact, presumably to flag up the Belgian colonization of Africa in the real world.

> > That's when the Marvel Handbooks first started listing his place of birth as somewhere in the Netherlands.
> >
> > The first six issues of the current series made him a Belgian cyborg assassin whom T'Challa killed and who never transformed into a being of solid sound. This has been ignored quite literally everywhere else.
> >
> > - Omar Karindu
> >
> > "A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom
> >
> > "It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey
>
> *Disclaimer* I do not always think I'm right, I do not have a problem admitting I'm wrong, and I don't consider my opinion to be "fact". If I don't write IMO in front of everything I say or I don't tuck my tail between my legs everytime someone disagrees with me it's simply cause...I mean what I say. I don't say something unless I believe it to be true. So if someone tries to police my opinion or pick an arguement over something trivial all I'll simply say is "read the fine print" I also don't care If I make a grammatical or spelling error. Thank you, have a nice day, Hakuna Matata, Live long and Prosper.
>
> Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
>
> Renegade Comic Forum-Talk about comics with a minimum of modding.
>
> http://s15.invisionfree.com/Renegade_Comic_Forum/index.php?
>
> Insurgency Comic Forum-Where ANYTHING goes.
> http://z10.invisionfree.com/Insurgency_Forums/index.php?act=idx

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari on MacOS X
Loren




> > I could swear I heard that Klaw being Dutch was one of the changes Hudlin made. Oh well. Thanks for the correction.
>
> Hudlin made him not-Dutch -- Belgian, in fact, presumably to flag up the Belgian colonization of Africa in the real world.

"Presumably" being the operative word, since Hudlin's depiction of Belgium's involvement in Africa, specifically South Africa, was seriously inaccurate.

To emphasize one point, South African Boers were largely Dutch, so a Dutch Klaw would have been consistent with that portrayal. Making his ancestors from Belgium, instead, makes the character's backstory less historically accurate, not more.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.7 on Windows 98
Omar Karindu




> > > I could swear I heard that Klaw being Dutch was one of the changes Hudlin made. Oh well. Thanks for the correction.
> >
> > Hudlin made him not-Dutch -- Belgian, in fact, presumably to flag up the Belgian colonization of Africa in the real world.
>
> "Presumably" being the operative word, since Hudlin's depiction of Belgium's involvement in Africa, specifically South Africa, was seriously inaccurate.
>
> To emphasize one point, South African Boers were largely Dutch, so a Dutch Klaw would have been consistent with that portrayal. Making his ancestors from Belgium, instead, makes the character's backstory less historically accurate, not more.

There's a real tendency to treat "Africa" in populart culture as one homogeneous place with one homogeneous culture...and, in more enlightened examples, this weird "Egypt" place stuck on the northeast corner.

Look at all of those "African" flags, a concept almost as absurd as an "Asia" flag. Since -- thanks mainly* to Conrad -- the Belgian Congo is for many people the emblem of the colonization of Africa, I felt safe in my presumption that he made Klaw Belgian rather than the potentially more clever Dutch because the Belgian colonization is canonized as the worst in a certain sense.**

* Mainly these days; Conrad himself was, of course, sending up the rather hypocritical banner of the various other European countries that had carved up the continent as they roundly condemned. A reader in his own time would have caught this, especially since Marlowe flags it up in his "dark places of the Earth" monologue about the British and the Romans early on. Unfortunately, even for most readers today, Conrad's somewhat ironized historical context is lost, while a vague cross-cultural memory that King Leopold was extra-awful in Africa remains.

** Why isn't the influenc eof the Dutch similarly treated? Because the Boers didn't think of themselves as Dutch and didn't identify with the Netherlands in terms of culture or citizenship. They speak/spoke a dialect of Dutch called Afrikaans and insisted/insist on being called "Afrikaners," i.e., Africans. They don't see themselves as colonizers, but as residents. But then, that's the difference between settler colonies and the other sorts. Americans and Canadians born in those countries tended to think of themselves as natives rather than as the descendants of colonizers as well even while they were technically British citizens...and still engaged in fighting the geninely native tribes.

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari on MacOS X
Loren




> Since -- thanks mainly* to Conrad -- the Belgian Congo is for many people the emblem of the colonization of Africa, I felt safe in my presumption that he made Klaw Belgian rather than the potentially more clever Dutch because the Belgian colonization is canonized as the worst in a certain sense.**

Oh, I'm sure you're right about his intent. It's just that his decision doesn't, in any way, sync up with the actual history of South Africa. He chose to give the Klaw family a new history in African colonization, he chose to set great-granddaddy Klaw in South Africa instead of some other part of the continent (I think Wakanda was traditionally closer to central Africa), and in his introduction in the tpb, he outright stated that great-granddaddy Klaw was a Boer.

And as you point out, that doesn't work. The Belgians weren't Boers, and even if they were, the Boers weren't oppressive colonizers. Heck, the whole thing would've worked better if he'd set it in the Congo, but he didn't. If he did any research at all, it was really shoddy.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.7 on Windows XP
sightunseen




> > Since -- thanks mainly* to Conrad -- the Belgian Congo is for many people the emblem of the colonization of Africa, I felt safe in my presumption that he made Klaw Belgian rather than the potentially more clever Dutch because the Belgian colonization is canonized as the worst in a certain sense.**
>
> Oh, I'm sure you're right about his intent. It's just that his decision doesn't, in any way, sync up with the actual history of South Africa. He chose to give the Klaw family a new history in African colonization, he chose to set great-granddaddy Klaw in South Africa instead of some other part of the continent (I think Wakanda was traditionally closer to central Africa), and in his introduction in the tpb, he outright stated that great-granddaddy Klaw was a Boer.
>
> And as you point out, that doesn't work. The Belgians weren't Boers, and even if they were, the Boers weren't oppressive colonizers. Heck, the whole thing would've worked better if he'd set it in the Congo, but he didn't. If he did any research at all, it was really shoddy.



So your telling me that the Boers were not oppressive colonists, yet they pushed the Zulu and several other tribes into smaller territories, killed millions of Africans with the help of the British and created what became the apartheid system that oppressed these people well into modern times?

Damn, I hate to see what you call oppressive


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.7 on Windows XP
Loren




> So your telling me that the Boers were not oppressive colonists, yet they pushed the Zulu and several other tribes into smaller territories, killed millions of Africans with the help of the British and created what became the apartheid system that oppressed these people well into modern times?

Not oppressive in the way that BP #1 depicted, no. The Boer-Zulu War began because of Zulu-initiated violence, not Belgian-style conquests, even though the Boers eventually committed more than their share of retribution. The Boers fought AGAINST the British in the late 1800s, not alongside them, so blaming the Boers for British atrocities is downright bizarre. And apartheid didn't begin until 1948, decades after the British had taken over control of South Africa from the Boers in 1902, and over 50 years after the story seen in BP #1. Apartheid has far more roots pre-1948 with British colonialism than it does with the Boers.

Plus, this is still beside the point. Great-granddaddy Klaw as a Belgian Boer in South Africa is simply historically unsound. (Not that "Your great-great-great-granddaddy killed my great-great-great-granddaddy" is a villainous motivation worth setting up in the first place.)


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WakandaMan




You are correct (as usual) Loren, traditionally Wakanda is located in central africa, around the Congo area. It's always been somewhat vague though.

>
> Oh, I'm sure you're right about his intent. It's just that his decision doesn't, in any way, sync up with the actual history of South Africa. He chose to give the Klaw family a new history in African colonization, he chose to set great-granddaddy Klaw in South Africa instead of some other part of the continent (I think Wakanda was traditionally closer to central Africa), and in his introduction in the tpb, he outright stated that great-granddaddy Klaw was a Boer.
>
> And as you point out, that doesn't work. The Belgians weren't Boers, and even if they were, the Boers weren't oppressive colonizers. Heck, the whole thing would've worked better if he'd set it in the Congo, but he didn't. If he did any research at all, it was really shoddy.


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