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Author
Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710


Fans here who are strongly inclined to the Right Wing of US politics have made several comments about how they don't like Spencer's political slant, or Marvel's political slant, or PC this or that, or SJW this or that. None of that is surprising to anyone who's ever read youtube comments. But it is surprising to me as an observer in the case of Secret Empire. It seems to me that for right-wing types, this story should be one of their favorites.

A right winger wishes that comics had more heroes that did things he wanted them to do. But now here is Cap doing those things. When the Red Skull gave those speeches early in the run that sounded like Trump, people came here and groaned that Spencer was taking on Trump. So why do they like those speeches when Trump says them but not when the Red Skull gives them?

What is weird is that the right-wing comments here have mostly been that that reader recognizes that Spencer is having his villains act right wing. Again, why don't they like that? OK, the Red Skull is an unredeemable villain, so they don't like having the right-wing character be a villain, but then Cap does the same thing and they still don't like it. Now it seems like the problem is that they know the writer is just not writing approvingly of right wing rhetoric. It's not the story they don't like, it is the writer's view of his own story. If Spencer was a hardcore right-winger he could have written the same story word for word and panel for panel. Would right wing readers like it then? No change to the story, just a change to the writer's view of what the characters are doing. Would they have liked the Red Skull's Trump speeches if they thought Spencer was all in on them? I suspect they'd be using the word "refreshing" to describe those speeches.

The GOP is definitely re-assessing and revising their views on tyranny. They have clearly widened their approval tent to let in Putin and Assad. Would a more conservative-friendly Spencer have garnered the Red Skull several new fans with the same speeches? If not, why not? Again, the right wing loves those things when Trump says them. They would love for the GOP to take over America like Cap has done. So, why are they not enjoying the story? It really seems like a Trump supporter's idea of great comics. I really think they would love it if Cap, doing all the same things, were considered the hero in SE by Marvel itself.



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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,503


I'm very much to the left of the centre, and I strongly dislike Spencers work with the character.

Even as a Liberal voter I cannot abide by the amount of political bias inherent in Spencers work. Bias is wrong no matter where you stand on the political spectrum, and I'm not inclined to support it simply because that bias supports my broad feelings on people like Trump.

Maybe you are simply assuming that anyone who objects to Spencer is right wing.


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mnapoli40


Member Since: Mon Oct 25, 2010
Posts: 69


Perhaps you're projecting your own bias on those who are not as far to the left as you. It is a typical (and lazy) tactic of those on the left to assign all who are not in lockstep with their thinking to be wacko Nazis or racist sympathizers.

Your casual grouping of readers who don't want to see SJW issues shoved down their throats or have Spencer's political beliefs preached to them in an escapist form of art as people who should be enjoying a Nazi Cap is more a reflection of your prejudiced mindset than anything else. A person can disagree with liberal thought and not be an extreme right-winger who enjoys their favorite characters depicted as Nazis.

It is hard for me to believe that there are many on the left who are still clueless about what happened in the last presidential election. Sure, there were racists and ignorant bigots who voted for Trump, but they were definitely in the minority. A lot of his support came from people who tired of the smugness and arrogance of the left as they constantly ridiculed those as racists who were to the right of their beliefs. Trump is a backlash. I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. Look who they voted for: a conceited, self-important candidate who still refuses to take responsibility for the fact that she lost.

Perhaps it is you who should be enjoying Nazi Cap. I imagine it would only take a small effort on your part to imagine the current Cap not as a Nazi but as a radical left-winger making the rabble bow down to your irrefutable ideology. Sounds fun, doesn't it?


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,343



Are you doing ok in your personal life? Did you get enough sleep? Is your blood sugar at an ok level? Usually your posts are good but this one just seemed unhinged and feverish.

Basically you're saying someone who doesn't like Marvel replacing their classic characters with new characters to appear more diverse is a Nazi sympathizer. I don't like that stuff either. But I also hate Republicans, conservatives, evangelicals, Nazis, the Confederate flag, Confederate statues, Trump and his staff. And I've never wanted to run someone over for being a protester.





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Captainidiot


Member Since: Tue Nov 18, 2014
Posts: 280


So what you are saying is that natzi cap is the hero for all conservatives because he represents their values perfectly? Whew, I'm glad you don't show prejudice by lumping a group of people into a category. I mean, that's what those dirty right wingers do........of course a middle class family who lost their home because their job was outsourced overseas and voted for change is exactly the same as the regime responsible for the holocaust.


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Neverman


Member Since: Sun Feb 26, 2017
Posts: 58


Thank you.


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710




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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710


No, I'm not saying "all conservatives". I know a lot of great people who are conservatives. I directed my post pretty clearly at people who came here and said they didn't like this storyline for "right-wing" reasons.

If people are mad at having their jobs outsourced or their wages stagnant, voting for the party that supports deregulation across the board probably isn't the way to go.


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710


I assume you are reading the story. So you know that HydraCap is not in fact a Nazi, he has no anti-Semitic tendencies, and that all the way back to WWII he was against Hydra allying with the Nazis. What HydraCap is is more of a fascist who is heavily influenced by Ayn Rand. Which brings me back to my question: Why don't the right wingers love the story? In what way is HydraCap not a Right wing fantasy come true? What has HydraCap actually done that FOX News extremists like Hannity or the departed O'Reilly (not to mention the radio talkers) haven't openly called for or openly fantasized about in public?


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710


Well, Cap's not a Nazi, he's a fascist. It's a difference worth pointing out because in the real world, the GOP is definitely trying to lead the country into fascism, and Right wing media has been encouraging fascist tendencies for decades. In the real world, you can get the GOP to denounce Nazism and racism (after several days of hemming, hawing, and hiding) but the fascism remains, and the President still aspires to authoritarianism.

So HydraCap still is a relevant comment on Right Wing culture in America, and still a reflection of what the right wing propaganda machine via FOX and the radio talkers call for openly. Many, many people voted for Trump. Why don't those people like reading a story where HydraCap basically takes those fantasies all the way?


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710


Well no, just the people who have come here and expressed their dislike for the story because they feel it is biased against the right.


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Captainidiot


Member Since: Tue Nov 18, 2014
Posts: 280


I'm a conservative and voted for Trump because I considered him the lesser of 2 evils. Does he need to do a better job? Absolutely. There has been quite a few head slap moments. It would be nice if he thought for a minute before he talked or tweeted, but IMHO if he could implement his fiscal policies all and I mean all of America would be better for it. Especially since the old fiscal policies are not sustainable and were leading us to disaster. And deregulation is about allowing competition and free enterprise which is how this country became a world power in 200 years instead of 2000. Freedom is how we got here. Not big government or fascism. Do you really think Hannity or Fox or Trump truly want cameras in classrooms where the kids cant speak differing thoughts? That they want to eradicate Las Vegas for resisting? (I am going extreme for effect there) but you know what I mean. Nobody this side of fringe hate groups would feel good about what Hydracap is doing. And there are extreme fringe groups on both sides of everything. Please dont lump conservatives as war mongering fascists. Conservatives want less governmental control, not more.


I stopped by the Cap board not because of the political commentary but because I wanted to see what Cap fans thought of how Spencer has literally destroyed the heart and soul of the marvel universe with this crap. I sympathized because Jason Aaron has basically done the same with Thor. Its truly a pity what these two have done to 2 great characters with such a rich history. I even miss the hulk, and as a thor fan, I am supposed to hate him. Its truly a shame. I never even saw the story as anti-conservative until you brought it up.



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mnapoli40


Member Since: Mon Oct 25, 2010
Posts: 69


It's pretty clear to everyone (at least to everyone who has replied to your post) that you are equating all right-wingers with fascists (if not, then you did a pretty poor job of stating your point). Believing the actions of Cap are a fantasy for all right-wingers is a pretty extreme view, to say the least, and is a symptom of everything that is currently wrong in American politics. Assigning only the most extreme attributes to a group as a way to define that group is not rational. It is not even very clever.

I suppose there are extreme right-wing wackos who would enjoy seeing a world run the way HydraCap is doing things. Likewise, I assume there are left-wing nutjobs who fantasize about seeing Trump assassinated and would love to see it depicted in a comic. Most right-thinking people don't think this way, and neither do those on the left. However, if you think differently, please correct me.

Either way, you must be absolutely loving Spencer's depiction of the right.




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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 1,710


Well, Cap's not a Nazi, he's a fascist. It's a difference worth pointing out because in the real world, the GOP is definitely trying to lead the country into fascism, and Right wing media has been encouraging fascist tendencies for decades. In the real world, you can get the GOP to denounce Nazism and racism (after several days of hemming, hawing, and hiding) but the fascism remains, and the President still aspires to authoritarianism.

So HydraCap still is a relevant comment on Right Wing culture in America, and still a reflection of what the right wing propaganda machine via FOX and the radio talkers call for openly. Many, many people voted for Trump. Why don't those people like reading a story where HydraCap basically takes those fantasies all the way?


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,343




    Quote:
    Well, Cap's not a Nazi, he's a fascist. It's a difference worth pointing out because in the real world, the GOP is definitely trying to lead the country into fascism, and Right wing media has been encouraging fascist tendencies for decades. In the real world, you can get the GOP to denounce Nazism and racism (after several days of hemming, hawing, and hiding) but the fascism remains, and the President still aspires to authoritarianism.


I don't entirely disagree about the Republicans. But I think you deserved the reactions you got when you brought up people not liking long established characters being replaced with new characters designed to promote diversity. I don't want to be lumped in with Nazis and Republicans just because I don't like say Sam Alexander as Nova or Riri as Iron Man.


    Quote:
    So HydraCap still is a relevant comment on Right Wing culture in America, and still a reflection of what the right wing propaganda machine via FOX and the radio talkers call for openly. Many, many people voted for Trump. Why don't those people like reading a story where HydraCap basically takes those fantasies all the way?






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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,343



pretty sure me and USAgent Fan have both posted here before...



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Neverman


Member Since: Sun Feb 26, 2017
Posts: 58


In one case, by suggesting that a lurker whose grandparents where forced to dig their own graves and then machine-gunned by the Nazis is himself a Nazi.


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Neverman

But at least I've discovered a new kind of Logic called

Member Since: Sun Feb 26, 2017
Posts: 58


Textbook: An Introduction to Quantum Logic

Chapter 1. An Axiomatic Proof Theory for Quantum Logic

Quantum Logic allows the inference of

"Group G should be happy about negative stereotype S"

from

"Group G really is S"

where all substitution instances of the latter that are widely accepted by Group G's enemies count as axioms of Quantum Logic.

Here are some ordinary language examples of Quantum Logic in action:

Example 1.
"I don't understand why Jews complain when they are portrayed as greedy selfish cretins out to steel money from gentiles. After all, they're always cretins and being greedy and steeling money from gentiles, so you'd think they'd be happy being portrayed that way."

Example 2.
"I don't understand why Asians would complain about being portrayed as inscrutable villains out to conquer white civilization. After all, they're always being inscrutable and hatching plans to conquer white civilization, so you'd think they'd be happy being portrayed that way"

Homework for Chapter 1:
1.What is the value of G in example 1? What is the value of S?
2.What is the value of G in example 2? What is the value of S?
3. Construct an example of a theorem of Quantum Logic where G = Black People.
4. Do the same where G = Mexicans.




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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,503


It is undoubtedly bias against the right.

Not because Spencer took up arms against racists and xenophobes, but because its quite clear that his work is an attack on anyone who voted for the other guy regardless of their reasons for doing so.

And you said it yourself - your assumption here was that the critics were right wing. I'm not, so where does that leave your theory?



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Neverman


Member Since: Sun Feb 26, 2017
Posts: 58


The claim that the President is a fascist or a Nazi is deeply offensive to me since: (a) I'm a Jew who supports him. (b) Every single one of my Jewish friends also support him. (c) We believe that the Democrats and their allies like Antifa and Linda Sarsour (or however you spell that odious woman's name) are a much bigger threat to Jews than the few dozen losers who show up at rallies dressed as Nazis every once in a while. And, most importantly: (d) My grandparents were forced to dig their own grave and machined gunned into it by real WWII fascists/Nazis and my father narrowly escaped a similar or perhaps much more lengthy agonizing death by walking east to Moscow a few miles ahead of the advancing fascist/Nazi army.

Furthermore, in every internet discussion I've had where someone has had the gall to suggest that I support a Nazi so far, it turns out that that the person isn't even Jewish. Perhaps you are different but my Jewdar -- if I may use the term -- tells me that you are also a gentile.

If so, who exactly do you think you are lecturing me that the Republican party is a bunch of Nazis? If polling is to be believed, 30 percent of American Jews voted for the President. This is hardly an insignificant percentage -- even the more so given the decades of loyalty we've have had to the Democratic party. Such loyalty was instilled in me as a child and it took a lot of research and reflection on my part to give it up. Who are you, Jewish or not, to casually demean decisions that are very important to me so you can virtue signal?

If you are Jewish, maybe you ought to think about respecting the opinion of the over a million of your fellow Jews who disagree with you. If, as I suspect, you are not a Jew, why don't you mind your own business and worry about your own people, goyim? We can take care of ourselves just fine and your virtue signalling and pity don't do anything for us. Moreover, my Jewish friends and I all agree that you're just a tool for people who really are a threat to us. Perhaps we are wrong. But, if you're not a Jew it's none of your business and, if you are, this is a discussion we should be having privately.

I apologize if this is offensive, but it's much less offensive to you than your remarks on a public message board were to me and I'm trying to get it through your skull that just a little thought would have made their offensiveness obvious to you.




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jcampie2


Member Since: Sat Jan 07, 2017
Posts: 3


Ditto. I voted for Clinton, think Trump is a disaster on an unparalleled scale, despise Fox and much of what the current national Republican Party has become, but I also despise what's been done to Steve Rogers, Thor, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, Nick Fury, Namor, Hawkeye, the X-men, hell, much of what was the Marvel Universe. The reasons for Marvel's sales tanking are many, but at the top of the list I would put their relentless character assassination of their own heroes and their own history. By the way, why would anybody, regardless of their political affiliation, who genuinely likes Capt. America, enjoy a story that turns Capt. America, created to oppose Nazis and fascists, into a Nazi or fascist himself. I know you're going to tell us he's not a Nazi. Others have already addressed the whole "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..." response and the myriad ties between Nazis and Hydra in the comics, cartoon and movies. So how about we use other words that now clearly apply to the character: mass-murderer, traitor, terrorist. According to what I've seen online, the character has: ordered the destruction of a major American city, Las Vegas, resulting in the deaths of thousands; poisoned the drinking supply of America; executed his former sidekick Rick Jones; participated in/signed off on the attempted murder of his original sidekick Bucky; established internment camps for Inhumans; imposed dictatorship on the U.S.; assaulted, subjugated other countries like France; murdered his Avengers teammate Black Widow; utilized elder demon Chthon, a primeval force of evil, to possess teammate Scarlet Witch, just as she finally gets her act together and recovers from years of insanity. They've made Capt. America the most successfully evil villain in the entire Marvel Universe-why would anybody have a problem with that?


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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,503


Quantum asks 'why don't right wingers love the story?', and 'in what way is Hydra Cap not a right wing fantasy'.

Well its really very simple - not all right wingers are raving lunatics. Some occupy the centre-right, some the middle-right - and yes - some the far-right, but you seem to have an assumption that the political spectrum is some kind of journey, whereby if you stand somewhere on the right then your ultimate ambition must be to get as far to the right as possible.

That's a complete nonsense, and by that logic anyone who considers themselves as anywhere to the left must have an ambition to get as far left as they possibly can.

Wanting stronger border control probably makes you 'right wing'. That doesn't mean you want every immigrant to be put into a concentration camp though.




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,343




    Quote:
    The claim that the President is a fascist or a Nazi is deeply offensive to me since: (a) I'm a Jew who supports him. (b) Every single one of my Jewish friends also support him. (c) We believe that the Democrats and their allies like Antifa and Linda Sarsour (or however you spell that odious woman's name) are a much bigger threat to Jews than the few dozen losers who show up at rallies dressed as Nazis every once in a while. And, most importantly: (d) My grandparents were forced to dig their own grave and machined gunned into it by real WWII fascists/Nazis and my father narrowly escaped a similar or perhaps much more lengthy agonizing death by walking east to Moscow a few miles ahead of the advancing fascist/Nazi army.


I think Trump's a horrible person. But he's not a Nazi. I think Trump can be accused of a lot of things but being anti-Israel or antisemitic isn't one of them. He's given his Jewish son-in-law a job he totally doesn't qualify for.


    Quote:
    Furthermore, in every internet discussion I've had where someone has had the gall to suggest that I support a Nazi so far, it turns out that that the person isn't even Jewish. Perhaps you are different but my Jewdar -- if I may use the term -- tells me that you are also a gentile.



    Quote:
    If so, who exactly do you think you are lecturing me that the Republican party is a bunch of Nazis? If polling is to be believed, 30 percent of American Jews voted for the President. This is hardly an insignificant percentage -- even the more so given the decades of loyalty we've have had to the Democratic party. Such loyalty was instilled in me as a child and it took a lot of research and reflection on my part to give it up. Who are you, Jewish or not, to casually demean decisions that are very important to me so you can virtue signal?



    Quote:
    If you are Jewish, maybe you ought to think about respecting the opinion of the over a million of your fellow Jews who disagree with you. If, as I suspect, you are not a Jew, why don't you mind your own business and worry about your own people, goyim? We can take care of ourselves just fine and your virtue signalling and pity don't do anything for us. Moreover, my Jewish friends and I all agree that you're just a tool for people who really are a threat to us. Perhaps we are wrong. But, if you're not a Jew it's none of your business and, if you are, this is a discussion we should be having privately.



    Quote:
    I apologize if this is offensive, but it's much less offensive to you than your remarks on a public message board were to me and I'm trying to get it through your skull that just a little thought would have made their offensiveness obvious to you.






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mnapoli40


Member Since: Mon Oct 25, 2010
Posts: 69




    Quote:
    ... but you seem to have an assumption that the political spectrum is some kind of journey, whereby if you stand somewhere on the right then your ultimate ambition must be to get as far to the right as possible.



    Quote:
    That's a complete nonsense, and by that logic anyone who considers themselves as anywhere to the left must have an ambition to get as far left as they possibly can.



Sorry, I do not understand why you are attributing this assumption to me. When did I say or even imply this?


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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,503


I'm not. I'm attributing it to Quantum, which is why I mention his name at the beginning of the post.


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Vincent


Member Since: Mon Jul 06, 2015
Posts: 96


Evil/Bad/Nazi Captain America isn't new, waaaaay back in those Tales of Suspense books, during WW2, the Red Skull brainwashed Cap to assassinate a high-level American General. Skull even introduced Cap to Hitler.
Back in the early 80s, Cap was brainwashed by Faustus and ran around with a Swastika painted on his shield, and again when Dan Jurgens took over Cap books in/around the late 90s.
Even in Invaders books, the Red Skull brainwashed Cap (Along with Namor, Torch and Toro) to fight for a fascist regime.

So Captain America brainwashed again, and by a cosmic being who also rewrote Cap's history, but the difference now, we're putting a Social relevance spin to it. We got to see what Hydra Cap would have done to America and how Cap affected the superhero population.

I love your opinions and thoughts. Keep it up. We all should discuss what's going on in our place and world. And keep reading comics.


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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,503


This time is different.

All of those examples you gave were examples of brainwashing - of Captain America not being in control - control he would later regain. Also, no one was ever really hurt by Cap in any of those stories.

By Nick Spencers own admission, the Captain were seeing in Secret Empire isnt going to willpower his way out of this, because the Cap we know ceased to exist - and that Captain America has done all manner of HORRIBLE things including bombing a city of 500,000 people, starving large parts of the US, building concentration camps, sanctioning public executions, and agreeing to vivisection.




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Vincent


Member Since: Mon Jul 06, 2015
Posts: 96


During the read, Hydra-Cap was beginning to sense Elisa/Madam Hydra was manipulating him and an uprising plan by Faustus and Zola, ...could've led to Hydra-Cap to go through that 'Number one was a high level politician who set up an conspiracy to destroy peoples' values and ideals'. That destroys his faith in Hydra and Hydra-Cap uses the Cube to restore him to the original form.

I suppose this way, showed that Original Cap wasn't responsible for the killings, starvings and executions during the run.


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