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Daveym




I found this interesting example of what a skilled fighter of equal class could do to Superman \:\-\*

This reminded me again of the debates we have had many times over the use of 'Skill' in regards to fights. We accept that Wonder Woman hangs with Superman & co via her skill and training and we know she can fight using Nerve attacks, or at least i can recall her displaying her knowledge of nerve points to send people to sleep in the past...
So if you believe the J mantra that she is comparable more or less to Superman physically do you think she should do better with the addition of her knowledge and skill?

Just *how* dangerous would such a person as below in the scans be?!


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Maestro




> I found an interesting example of what a skilled fighter of equal class could do to Superman - I attach scans \:\-\*
>
> This reminds me again of the debates we have had many times over the use of 'Skill' in regards to fights. We accept that Wonder Woman hangs with Superman & co via her skill and training and we know she can fight using Nerve attacks, or at least i recall her displaying her knowledge of nerve points to send people to sleep...
> So if you believe the J mantra that she is comparable more or less to Superman physically do you think she should do better with the addition of her knowledge and skill?
>
> Just *how* dangerous would such a person as below in the scans be?!

Dangerous because she is a Kryptonian (therefore Supe's equal) but especially dangerous to another Kryptonian because of her extensive knowledge of all of their vulnerable nerve points and so on. I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes. So in this case her fighting skills seems especially suited to battling other Kryptonians but we have no proof that she is as well rounded a fighter as Wonder Woman.


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Public Enemy #1





> I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes.

Not sure. I would guess a Kryptonian chick is stronger than WW.




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J




>
> > I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes.
>
> Not sure. I would guess a Kryptonian chick is stronger than WW.
>
>


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Public Enemy #1




> >
> > > I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes.
> >
> > Not sure. I would guess a Kryptonian chick is stronger than WW.
> >
> >


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Public Enemy #1




... we already know a female Daxamite is also stronger than WW.


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Daveym




Some background on her...


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J




You have NOTHING to prove your point. Not a damn comic appearance or even any editor or creator comments. You have nothing.

On the other hand, since Supergirls appearance, Diana has been called "The DCU's most powerful female" by DC, Allen Heinberg AND Jodi Picoult.

Allen Heinberg & Geoff Johns BOTH even wrote a scene into JLA #118 where Zatanna & Supergirl look on to Wonder Woman, smiling, calling her the most powerful female as well.

This doesnt even count Countdown To IC that states Diana is the most powerful female.

Then lets not forget the 2 times Diana & Kara engaged each other: the first had Diana holding Kara in a head lock that she couldnt break and the second had Diana knocking Kara on her a*s defeating her.

Supergirls powerful. Shes NO Wonder Woman.


> > > > I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes.
> > >
> > > Not sure. I would guess a Kryptonian chick is stronger than WW.
> > >
> > >


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J




> ... we already know a female Daxamite is also stronger than WW.

And I dont read Legion but isnt the 'new' Lar Gand more powerful than Kara in Legion?


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Public Enemy #1




> You have NOTHING to prove your point. Not a damn comic appearance or even any editor or creator comments. You have nothing.


Where have you been the past year, J?

Of course we have comics of:

* Supergirl defeating Superman in speed;
* Supergirl knocking him unconscious or, at least, stunning him badly;
* Gasp... Supergirl embarrassing every single team on DC (Legion -- not in combat --, Teen Titans, Outsiders, and part of JLA);
* Supergirl keeping up with Flash in speed;
* Supergirl beating Martian Manhunter in a few panels;
* Supergirl stalemating Mon-El;
* Supergirl embarrassing Wondergirl (twice at this point... one was a victory in combat).

So, based on her amazing track record against foes WW has no hope of beating a majority, it's safe to assume she is stronger than WW.


>
> On the other hand, since Supergirls appearance, Diana has been called "The DCU's most powerful female" by DC, Allen Heinberg AND Jodi Picoult.

Solicits do not equal showings.


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Public Enemy #1




> > ... we already know a female Daxamite is also stronger than WW.
>
> And I dont read Legion but isnt the 'new' Lar Gand more powerful than Kara in Legion?

Might be. Maybe. They have been rebooted.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
J




> > You have NOTHING to prove your point. Not a damn comic appearance or even any editor or creator comments. You have nothing.
>
>
> Where have you been the past year, J?
>
> Of course we have comics of:
>
> * Supergirl defeating Superman in speed;

Not quite. She accelerated while they were flying and he 'lost' her. This was, again, clarified in Loebs last issue of the series when Kal clearly stated she was NOT more powerful.

However, this point is MOOT, bc this topic is about STRENGTH and NOT speed.

> * Supergirl knocking him unconscious or, at least, stunning him badly;

Again, a gross misrepresentation. She didnt stun OR KO him. He was LETTING HER hit him. I suggest you re-read the issue. Im not the only person here who has corrected you on your erroneous 'example.'

> * Gasp... Supergirl embarrassing every single team on DC (Legion -- not in combat --, Teen Titans, Outsiders, and part of JLA);

And this has to do with WW as a strength comparison... because?

> * Supergirl keeping up with Flash in speed;

And what does speed have to do with strength? Nor did she embarass him. HE caught up with her. What she DID embarass him in is intellgience.

> * Supergirl beating Martian Manhunter in a few panels;

And Diana did the same to Jonn - along with Plastic Man, Batman, Flash & Black Canary all at once - while blind.

> * Supergirl stalemating Mon-El;

Matrix defeated Mon-El, too. Shes not nearly as strong as Kara OR Diana.

> * Supergirl embarrassing Wondergirl (twice at this point... one was a victory in combat).

Prior to Cassies power up. And, again, Cassie isnt even nearly close to Dianas strength level so how this is a comparison to Diana is beyond me.
>
> So, based on her amazing track record against foes WW has no hope of beating a majority, it's safe to assume she is stronger than WW.

Your assumptions are absurd. You proved nothing really. You have yet to dismiss or attempt to tackle ANY of the points Ive made and all your points dont even involve STRENGTH *OR* Wonder Woman. They all involve characters who are SERIOUSLY weaker than both Kara AND Diana.

Like I said in my original post - you have NO PROOF. NOTHING.


>
>
> >
> > On the other hand, since Supergirls appearance, Diana has been called "The DCU's most powerful female" by DC, Allen Heinberg AND Jodi Picoult.
>
> Solicits do not equal showings.

Nope, they arent showings but they are editorial edict. Why would DC state, with all certainty, that Diana is "The DCU's most powerful heroine!" then? Why would Allen Heinberg write it into a comic? Say it in an interview? Why would Jodi Piccoult state in an interview that Diana is the most powerful female character?

Interesting. Im 'crazy' according to you yet other creators, editors and the like feel the same way I do based on COMIC SHOWINGS and DC MANDATE and yet your examples of Kara vs WonderGIRL are supposed to be proof? lol

Better luck next time.


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J




The Gods left the DCU plane of existance after War Of The Gods. Since that time Diana was slowly losing her powers which culminated in Diana turning to stone in Byrnes run.

The scene YOU showed happened AFTER the Gods left THUS Diana was depowered.

Ive postee the scans time after time. Need I do so again? They clearly state that when the Gods left so did their power that fueled the Amazons.



> > > ... we already know a female Daxamite is also stronger than WW.
> >
> > And I dont read Legion but isnt the 'new' Lar Gand more powerful than Kara in Legion?
>
> Might be. Maybe. They have been rebooted.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Public Enemy #1




> The Gods left the DCU plane of existance after War Of The Gods. Since that time Diana was slowly losing her powers which culminated in Diana turning to stone in Byrnes run.

And we asked Byrne whether she was depowered througout his run, and he said that it was not shown and was of not effect to his stories (meaning she was operating at full power, until the weakness was brought up).

>
> The scene YOU showed happened AFTER the Gods left THUS Diana was depowered.

In any case, even if you were right (which you absolutely are not), WW didn't know she was weakened, so she truly believed the female Daxamite was her superior.


> Ive postee the scans time after time. Need I do so again? They clearly state that when the Gods left so did their power that fueled the Amazons.

If someone was reading this for the first time, they might really believe you proved your point, J. Old school posters here know you didn't prove anything, and you were stretching events to prove your points.


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J





> And we asked Byrne whether she was depowered througout his run, and he said that it was not shown and was of not effect to his stories (meaning she was operating at full power, until the weakness was brought up).

Thats not what he said.

AND it was BYRNE who turned her to stone. And it was BYRNE who wrote the scenes that CLEARLY state, by the Gods themselves, that when they left after War Of The Gods that The Amazons (Diana included) started to slowly lose their power.
>
> In any case, even if you were right (which you absolutely are not), WW didn't know she was weakened, so she truly believed the female Daxamite was her superior.

And yet she still held her own against her. Odd, right?
>
> If someone was reading this for the first time, they might really believe you proved your point, J. Old school posters here know you didn't prove anything, and you were stretching events to prove your points.

Dude, the scans speak for themselves.

The Gods left after War Of The Gods.

The Gods leaving meant the power they infused into the Amazons and Diana slowly left causing all the Amazons to turn to stone (including Diana).

Then, the Gods VOTED and decided to return to this plane of existance to give the Amazons and Diana back their life. Ares was the final vote and only agreed after learning that he was Hippolytas father.

Explain to me HOW Im wrong?????? I would *LOVE* for you to attempt to prove that Im lying or twisting events. Like I said I have all the scans!






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Public Enemy #1




> > > You have NOTHING to prove your point. Not a damn comic appearance or even any editor or creator comments. You have nothing.
> >
> >
> > Where have you been the past year, J?
> >
> > Of course we have comics of:
> >
> > * Supergirl defeating Superman in speed;
>
> Not quite. She accelerated while they were flying and he 'lost' her. This was, again, clarified in Loebs last issue of the series when Kal clearly stated she was NOT more powerful.

They were racing.
Supes didn't clearly state anything. It was left up in the air.
If it was WW, I am sure you would be rubbing that scene in everyone's face.

>
> However, this point is MOOT, bc this topic is about STRENGTH and NOT speed.

The topic is about WW vs a female Kryptonian, and, until proven otherwise, a female Kryptonian is physically superior (stronger, faster, more durable). You should be happy that WW can win with her weapons and skills.


> > * Supergirl knocking him unconscious or, at least, stunning him badly;
>
> Again, a gross misrepresentation. She didnt stun OR KO him. He was LETTING HER hit him. I suggest you re-read the issue. Im not the only person here who has corrected you on your erroneous 'example.'

He was seen unconscious at the end of an issue, and extremely groggy at the beginning of other, and saying she could kill him. How is this a gross misrepresentation? You make it sound as if she didn't hurt him.


> > * Gasp... Supergirl embarrassing every single team on DC (Legion -- not in combat --, Teen Titans, Outsiders, and part of JLA);
>
> And this has to do with WW as a strength comparison... because?

Because WW can't accomplish such a feat and had her hands full with Starfire alone.

> > * Supergirl keeping up with Flash in speed;
>
> And what does speed have to do with strength? Nor did she embarass him. HE caught up with her. What she DID embarass him in is intellgience.

I didn't say she embarrassed him, but, well, she did...

> > * Supergirl beating Martian Manhunter in a few panels;
>
> And Diana did the same to Jonn - along with Plastic Man, Batman, Flash & Black Canary all at once - while blind.
>

That was training. Not a real fight. So, when Supes and Supergirl are racing in space, it doesn't count... this is brilliant.
Manhunter was training with WW, and they stalemated (and even embarrassed WW at certain points of the battle). Does this count too? I will post the scans more than gladly.


> > * Supergirl stalemating Mon-El;
>
> Matrix defeated Mon-El, too. Shes not nearly as strong as Kara OR Diana.

I haven't seen this story, so I can't comment, but Matrix was uber for a while.

> > * Supergirl embarrassing Wondergirl (twice at this point... one was a victory in combat).
>
> Prior to Cassies power up. And, again, Cassie isnt even nearly close to Dianas strength level so how this is a comparison to Diana is beyond me.

The second time was after the power-up. Wondergirl stood up to WW and stunned her with her lightning. The same attack against Supergirl knocked her own self unconscious.


> Your assumptions are absurd. You proved nothing really. You have yet to dismiss or attempt to tackle ANY of the points Ive made and all your points dont even involve STRENGTH *OR* Wonder Woman. They all involve characters who are SERIOUSLY weaker than both Kara AND Diana.


No. Superman is seriously stronger than WW and comparable to Supergirl. Martian Manhunter may even be stronger than WW, depending on the depiction.
Flash embarrassed WW a few times...
WW can't defeat Teen Titans on her own.



> Like I said in my original post - you have NO PROOF. NOTHING.

I have proof, even though you hate them and twist facts to prove your stance...


> >
> > Solicits do not equal showings.
>
> Nope, they arent showings but they are editorial edict.

And they mean nothing. Iron Man is invincible. Juggernaut is unstoppable. She-Hulk is the strongest super heroine on Earth. What counts are showings. The marketing department of DC can advertise books any way the want. Covers are as invalid and often misrepresent the inside of a book.

> Why would DC state, with all certainty, that Diana is "The DCU's most powerful heroine!" then?

Marketing strategy. Chances are editors have nothing to do with that, but the marketing department.


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Public Enemy #1




>
> > And we asked Byrne whether she was depowered througout his run, and he said that it was not shown and was of not effect to his stories (meaning she was operating at full power, until the weakness was brought up).
>
> Thats not what he said.

Not with those words, but that was the content of his reply.

> AND it was BYRNE who turned her to stone. And it was BYRNE who wrote the scenes that CLEARLY state, by the Gods themselves, that when they left after War Of The Gods that The Amazons (Diana included) started to slowly lose their power.

And he clarified she was not depowered throughout his run... \:\) .

> >
> > In any case, even if you were right (which you absolutely are not), WW didn't know she was weakened, so she truly believed the female Daxamite was her superior.
>
> And yet she still held her own against her. Odd, right?

WW should hold her own against her superiors on skills and weapons...:). That's how she is usually portrayed against Supes.
No shame in that.


> >
> > If someone was reading this for the first time, they might really believe you proved your point, J. Old school posters here know you didn't prove anything, and you were stretching events to prove your points.
>
> Dude, the scans speak for themselves.
>
> The Gods left after War Of The Gods.
>
> The Gods leaving meant the power they infused into the Amazons and Diana slowly left causing all the Amazons to turn to stone (including Diana).
>
> Then, the Gods VOTED and decided to return to this plane of existance to give the Amazons and Diana back their life. Ares was the final vote and only agreed after learning that he was Hippolytas father.
>
> Explain to me HOW Im wrong?????? I would *LOVE* for you to attempt to prove that Im lying or twisting events. Like I said I have all the scans!

Dear J:

The rest of the Board and I explained this to you several times.
Just read the archieves.
I thought you had mellowed a bit before you left, but I see you are the same as always, which is a shame.

Best luck to you,

PE #1


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J





> They were racing.
> Supes didn't clearly state anything. It was left up in the air.
> If it was WW, I am sure you would be rubbing that scene in everyone's face.

They were not racing. They were flying together. She decided to accelerate.

Again the topic was clarified in Loebs final issue.

> The topic is about WW vs a female Kryptonian, and, until proven otherwise, a female Kryptonian is physically superior (stronger, faster, more durable). You should be happy that WW can win with her weapons and skills.

And, again, you have ZERO proof that a female Kryptonian is more powerful than Wonder Woman.

Otherwise based on past examples and other examples Kara Zor El is *not* more powerful OR stronger than Diana (see: JLA#118).

> He was seen unconscious at the end of an issue, and extremely groggy at the beginning of other, and saying she could kill him. How is this a gross misrepresentation? You make it sound as if she didn't hurt him.

He was not unconcious.

And why couldnt Kara kill him? He wasnt fighting her back. He was letting her beat up on him.

> Because WW can't accomplish such a feat and had her hands full with Starfire alone.

WW seemingly had no problem with the JLA in her own book. Nor did she have a problem with the Ultramarines. She also didnt have much of a problem with Superman - on more than one occasion. A feat Kara has yet to accomplish.

And Diana didnt have her hands full with Starfire - Starfire initatiated the 'fight' and Diana simply kept her at bay.

> That was training. Not a real fight. So, when Supes and Supergirl are racing in space, it doesn't count... this is brilliant.

That wasnt TRAINING. You dont shoot someone with a gun during TRAINING. You dont attempt to PROVE that someone is incapable during TRAINING. Training is to BETTER the characters involved. THAT wasnt the case here.

> Manhunter was training with WW, and they stalemated (and even embarrassed WW at certain points of the battle). Does this count too? I will post the scans more than gladly.

Manhunter embarrassed WW? The entire fight had Kate GLORYFING Diana. Dianas superior speed was showcased NUMEROUS times. And Diana 'training' with Kate was for Kates benefit - NOT Dianas. Kate ASKED Diana for help, remember? You really misread alot of the scenes you try and post here.

> The second time was after the power-up. Wondergirl stood up to WW and stunned her with her lightning. The same attack against Supergirl knocked her own self unconscious.

No it wasnt. The power up didnt come up til AFTER that Supergirl issue in Teen Titans when Cassie caught the plane. So youre wrong.

Cassie didnt stun WW at all. Diana called it, and let me a quote a "sting." She said it was Zeus lightning AND we have a scene of Diana HOLDING Zeus lightning in her hands with no ill effects as well. So your version of "stun" is wrong as well. It had NO effect on Diana.

> Flash embarrassed WW a few times...
> WW can't defeat Teen Titans on her own.

Diana has caught the Flash on NUMEROUS occasions and has been said to be one of the fastest members of the JLA ALONG with Superman and Flash.

And Diana could defeat the Titans, easily. Who on that team has ANY chance againt her? Robin? Ravager? Kid Devil? Raven? Cassie? PLEASE.

Wonder Woman has held her own and DEFEATED Superman. TWICE. You, my friend, are BUGGIN.

> I have proof, even though you hate them and twist facts to prove your stance...

Ive twisted nothing. You ignored EVERYTHING I said and posted speed examples and examples with people, like Cassie, who are severely weaker than Diana.

> And they mean nothing. Iron Man is invincible. Juggernaut is unstoppable. She-Hulk is the strongest super heroine on Earth. What counts are showings. The marketing department of DC can advertise books any way the want. Covers are as invalid and often misrepresent the inside of a book.

The show precedence.
>
> Marketing strategy. Chances are editors have nothing to do with that, but the marketing department.

Oh so the marketing dept can say and do anything they want without company approval? lol

Surely you business knowledge is limited - especially when dealing with a HUGE company like Warner Bros. who view Superman, Batman & Wonder Woman as MASSIVE marketing oppurtunities.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Public Enemy #1




>
> > They were racing.
> > Supes didn't clearly state anything. It was left up in the air.
> > If it was WW, I am sure you would be rubbing that scene in everyone's face.
>
> They were not racing. They were flying together. She decided to accelerate.
>
> Again the topic was clarified in Loebs final issue.
>
> > The topic is about WW vs a female Kryptonian, and, until proven otherwise, a female Kryptonian is physically superior (stronger, faster, more durable). You should be happy that WW can win with her weapons and skills.
>
> And, again, you have ZERO proof that a female Kryptonian is more powerful than Wonder Woman.
>
> Otherwise based on past examples and other examples Kara Zor El is *not* more powerful OR stronger than Diana (see: JLA#118).
>
> > He was seen unconscious at the end of an issue, and extremely groggy at the beginning of other, and saying she could kill him. How is this a gross misrepresentation? You make it sound as if she didn't hurt him.
>
> He was not unconcious.
>
> And why couldnt Kara kill him? He wasnt fighting her back. He was letting her beat up on him.
>
> > Because WW can't accomplish such a feat and had her hands full with Starfire alone.
>
> WW seemingly had no problem with the JLA in her own book. Nor did she have a problem with the Ultramarines. She also didnt have much of a problem with Superman - on more than one occasion. A feat Kara has yet to accomplish.
>
> And Diana didnt have her hands full with Starfire - Starfire initatiated the 'fight' and Diana simply kept her at bay.
>
> > That was training. Not a real fight. So, when Supes and Supergirl are racing in space, it doesn't count... this is brilliant.
>
> That wasnt TRAINING. You dont shoot someone with a gun during TRAINING. You dont attempt to PROVE that someone is incapable during TRAINING. Training is to BETTER the characters involved. THAT wasnt the case here.
>
> > Manhunter was training with WW, and they stalemated (and even embarrassed WW at certain points of the battle). Does this count too? I will post the scans more than gladly.
>
> Manhunter embarrassed WW? The entire fight had Kate GLORYFING Diana. Dianas superior speed was showcased NUMEROUS times. And Diana 'training' with Kate was for Kates benefit - NOT Dianas. Kate ASKED Diana for help, remember? You really misread alot of the scenes you try and post here.
>
> > The second time was after the power-up. Wondergirl stood up to WW and stunned her with her lightning. The same attack against Supergirl knocked her own self unconscious.
>
> No it wasnt. The power up didnt come up til AFTER that Supergirl issue in Teen Titans when Cassie caught the plane. So youre wrong.
>
> Cassie didnt stun WW at all. Diana called it, and let me a quote a "sting." She said it was Zeus lightning AND we have a scene of Diana HOLDING Zeus lightning in her hands with no ill effects as well. So your version of "stun" is wrong as well. It had NO effect on Diana.
>
> > Flash embarrassed WW a few times...
> > WW can't defeat Teen Titans on her own.
>
> Diana has caught the Flash on NUMEROUS occasions and has been said to be one of the fastest members of the JLA ALONG with Superman and Flash.
>
> And Diana could defeat the Titans, easily. Who on that team has ANY chance againt her? Robin? Ravager? Kid Devil? Raven? Cassie? PLEASE.
>
> Wonder Woman has held her own and DEFEATED Superman. TWICE. You, my friend, are BUGGIN.
>
> > I have proof, even though you hate them and twist facts to prove your stance...
>
> Ive twisted nothing. You ignored EVERYTHING I said and posted speed examples and examples with people, like Cassie, who are severely weaker than Diana.
>
> > And they mean nothing. Iron Man is invincible. Juggernaut is unstoppable. She-Hulk is the strongest super heroine on Earth. What counts are showings. The marketing department of DC can advertise books any way the want. Covers are as invalid and often misrepresent the inside of a book.
>
> The show precedence.
> >
> > Marketing strategy. Chances are editors have nothing to do with that, but the marketing department.
>
> Oh so the marketing dept can say and do anything they want without company approval? lol
>
> Surely you business knowledge is limited - especially when dealing with a HUGE company like Warner Bros. who view Superman, Batman & Wonder Woman as MASSIVE marketing oppurtunities.
>
>


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J




What annoys me the most is that youve read these issues - and you know Im telling the truth. And you can stil sit behind your computer and call me a liar and accuse of me twisting facts when Ive provided issue #s & scans to prove it. ANYONE can go and get the issues (which is why I provided the issue #s).

I would love for you to explain to me HOW the Amazons & Diana turned to stone. What the reasoning was behind it AND how they finally reverted back to normal. I really want to hear your explanantion since you said MINE is a lie.



> > > And we asked Byrne whether she was depowered througout his run, and he said that it was not shown and was of not effect to his stories (meaning she was operating at full power, until the weakness was brought up).
> >
> > Thats not what he said.
>
> Not with those words, but that was the content of his reply.
>
> > AND it was BYRNE who turned her to stone. And it was BYRNE who wrote the scenes that CLEARLY state, by the Gods themselves, that when they left after War Of The Gods that The Amazons (Diana included) started to slowly lose their power.
>
> And he clarified she was not depowered throughout his run... \:\) .
>
> > >
> > > In any case, even if you were right (which you absolutely are not), WW didn't know she was weakened, so she truly believed the female Daxamite was her superior.
> >
> > And yet she still held her own against her. Odd, right?
>
> WW should hold her own against her superiors on skills and weapons...:). That's how she is usually portrayed against Supes.
> No shame in that.
>
>
> > >
> > > If someone was reading this for the first time, they might really believe you proved your point, J. Old school posters here know you didn't prove anything, and you were stretching events to prove your points.
> >
> > Dude, the scans speak for themselves.
> >
> > The Gods left after War Of The Gods.
> >
> > The Gods leaving meant the power they infused into the Amazons and Diana slowly left causing all the Amazons to turn to stone (including Diana).
> >
> > Then, the Gods VOTED and decided to return to this plane of existance to give the Amazons and Diana back their life. Ares was the final vote and only agreed after learning that he was Hippolytas father.
> >
> > Explain to me HOW Im wrong?????? I would *LOVE* for you to attempt to prove that Im lying or twisting events. Like I said I have all the scans!
>
> Dear J:
>
> The rest of the Board and I explained this to you several times.
> Just read the archieves.
> I thought you had mellowed a bit before you left, but I see you are the same as always, which is a shame.
>
> Best luck to you,
>
> PE #1


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Public Enemy #1




> What annoys me the most is that youve read these issues - and you know Im telling the truth.

No? I don't even believe you believe the things you say, unless you totally lack objectivity regarding WW -- which would just be insane. Hence, you take it personal etc.


> And you can stil sit behind your computer and call me a liar and accuse of me twisting facts when Ive provided issue #s & scans to prove it. ANYONE can go and get the issues (which is why I provided the issue #s).

I never called you a liar. I don't insult, unless provoked.

> I would love for you to explain to me HOW the Amazons & Diana turned to stone. What the reasoning was behind it AND how they finally reverted back to normal. I really want to hear your explanantion since you said MINE is a lie.

J, I won't debate with you again. I think most people on here have their opinion on where WW ranks powerwise. They have heard your version of facts, and they have seen the scans. So, their opinion is more than legitimate -- unless you are accusing everyone on here of bias and hating.
So, there is no point in debating this over and over, as we did this 'ad nauseum'. If a new poster, a lurker etc. wants an explanation from me, I will more than glad to provide it and add scans (as I always did).

Have a happy 2007, and hope you get out of hospital soon...!


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Daveym




>
> > Just *how* dangerous would such a person as below in the scans be?!
>
> Dangerous because she is a Kryptonian (therefore Supe's equal) but especially dangerous to another Kryptonian because of her extensive knowledge of all of their vulnerable nerve points and so on. I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes. So in this case her fighting skills seems especially suited to battling other Kryptonians but we have no proof that she is as well rounded a fighter as Wonder Woman.

Fair enough but Martial arts is martial arts.

I'm more interested though in just how dangerous such an opponent would be for Superman - it's basically what Wonder Woman is made up to be right?
If you gave Shang Chi that sort of power would you agree he'd demolish Superman and if so why isn't WW capable of that sort of clear advantage?

Or to be blunt - is she overrated in that regard? >:-|


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Maestro




> >
> > > Just *how* dangerous would such a person as below in the scans be?!
> >
> > Dangerous because she is a Kryptonian (therefore Supe's equal) but especially dangerous to another Kryptonian because of her extensive knowledge of all of their vulnerable nerve points and so on. I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes. So in this case her fighting skills seems especially suited to battling other Kryptonians but we have no proof that she is as well rounded a fighter as Wonder Woman.
>
> Fair enough but Martial arts is martial arts.
>
> I'm more interested though in just how dangerous such an opponent would be for Superman - it's basically what Wonder Woman is made up to be right?
> If you gave Shang Chi that sort of power would you agree he'd demolish Superman and if so why isn't WW capable of that sort of clear advantage?
>
> Or to be blunt - is she overrated in that regard? >:-|

I don't think WW is over rated and she would be every bit as deadly (perhaps more so) to Superman if she knew of the Kryptonian weak points as this lady does. Lets face it, no matter how strong the opponent, Supes can take a martial arts punch, chop or kick with the best of them. Its not so much her Martial Arts that is making the difference in this fight but the fact that she knows exactly where to hit Supes to get the maximum results.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Beowulf




> > >
> > > > Just *how* dangerous would such a person as below in the scans be?!
> > >
> > > Dangerous because she is a Kryptonian (therefore Supe's equal) but especially dangerous to another Kryptonian because of her extensive knowledge of all of their vulnerable nerve points and so on. I suspect though that she would probably get her butt handed to her if she were to fight Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter since they would be right up there in strength but without the Kryptonian weak points that she is using to cripple Supes. So in this case her fighting skills seems especially suited to battling other Kryptonians but we have no proof that she is as well rounded a fighter as Wonder Woman.
> >
> > Fair enough but Martial arts is martial arts.
> >
> > I'm more interested though in just how dangerous such an opponent would be for Superman - it's basically what Wonder Woman is made up to be right?
> > If you gave Shang Chi that sort of power would you agree he'd demolish Superman and if so why isn't WW capable of that sort of clear advantage?
> >
> > Or to be blunt - is she overrated in that regard? >:-|
>
> I don't think WW is over rated and she would be every bit as deadly (perhaps more so) to Superman if she knew of the Kryptonian weak points as this lady does. Lets face it, no matter how strong the opponent, Supes can take a martial arts punch, chop or kick with the best of them. Its not so much her Martial Arts that is making the difference in this fight but the fact that she knows exactly where to hit Supes to get the maximum results.

I think that WW just cannot be that great an martial artist.
It is a bit of a contradiction.
Why? Because the current version already possesses vast superpowers. If you are a powerhouse and much more powerful than your instructors, how can you become a true master of such skills?

Pre-crisis Wonder Woman was the best of all amazons, thanks to her skills. She was the first among equals(more or less) Post-Crisis Wonder Woman is god-powered and far beyond beyond her sisters abilities to compete(Which made the contest a bit of a joke IMHO). If all amazons were as powerful as Diana and then they would train martial arts with each other, only the sky would be the limit. And not even Superman would stand a chance. But that is not the case.

Faora on the other hand mastered her kryptonian kung fu on Krypton, where she was as normal as any other Kryptonian and still became the deadliest woman alive. A kryptonian Lady Shiva crossed with Ted Bundy. So superpowers combinated with vast fighting skills made her a truly terrfying opponent.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows 98
J




You seem to fail to understand every confrontation Diana and Kal have had.

Diana has never once attempted to put Kal down. In every fight they have had she was trying to save him whereas this Kryptonian female was trying to DEFEAT him. Theres a massive difference.

Why would Diana inflict unnecessary harm on Kal? Why would she use pressure points to make him go out of control (and possibly hurt himself OR others)?

It doesnt make sense.

As you noted prior, Diana has used pressure point attacks before. Shes a martial artist. Should she be able to do that? Yes, of course. Would she? Of course not.


>
> Fair enough but Martial arts is martial arts.
>
> I'm more interested though in just how dangerous such an opponent would be for Superman - it's basically what Wonder Woman is made up to be right?
> If you gave Shang Chi that sort of power would you agree he'd demolish Superman and if so why isn't WW capable of that sort of clear advantage?
>
> Or to be blunt - is she overrated in that regard? >:-|


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
J




Diana is the *best* of what the Amazons have to offer - not only philisophically or power (obviously) but in skill as well. This has been repeated (and proven during The Contest).

Diana, as a child, was tested: a surprise attack left many of her Amazon sisters in critical condition causing Diana great fear in using her abilties - and proving just what she was capable of doing. After this Phillipus (among others) trained Diana in the use of her abilities AND taught her how to control the level of power she uses (as seen during sparring sessions with Batman, Black Canary and Lady Shiva to name a few...).

The Contest, as written be WML had Diana powerless during the competition with 1/2 of her skill being transferred to Artemis (causing Diana to lose). The original Contest had Diana using her ability to control her speed & strength to match her Amazon sisters (and why would she lie? Shes the living embodiment of The Truth)...

Hippolyta showed how trained in marital arts the Amazons are - she defeated Heracles in h2h combat even though he is Class 100 and she is only Class 10 - using far superior skill. Diana is better than her mother.


> I think that WW just cannot be that great an martial artist.
> It is a bit of a contradiction.
> Why? Because the current version already possesses vast superpowers. If you are a powerhouse and much more powerful than your instructors, how can you become a true master of such skills?
>
> Pre-crisis Wonder Woman was the best of all amazons, thanks to her skills. She was the first among equals(more or less) Post-Crisis Wonder Woman is god-powered and far beyond beyond her sisters abilities to compete(Which made the contest a bit of a joke IMHO). If all amazons were as powerful as Diana and then they would train martial arts with each other, only the sky would be the limit. And not even Superman would stand a chance. But that is not the case.
>
> Faora on the other hand mastered her kryptonian kung fu on Krypton, where she was as normal as any other Kryptonian and still became the deadliest woman alive. A kryptonian Lady Shiva crossed with Ted Bundy. So superpowers combinated with vast fighting skills made her a truly terrfying opponent.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Daveym




> You seem to fail to understand every confrontation Diana and Kal have had.
>
> Diana has never once attempted to put Kal down. In every fight they have had she was trying to save him whereas this Kryptonian female was trying to DEFEAT him. Theres a massive difference.
>
> Why would Diana inflict unnecessary harm on Kal? Why would she use pressure points to make him go out of control (and possibly hurt himself OR others)?
>
> It doesnt make sense.
>
> As you noted prior, Diana has used pressure point attacks before. Shes a martial artist. Should she be able to do that? Yes, of course. Would she? Of course not.
>
>
Please J. take the day off \:\-\*

It is a perfectly reasonable question, Nerve attacks and pressure points are a quick and harmless means of achieving her objectives in any Superman fight. Stopping and subduing him in an efficient clean manner without having to take his every punch and assault and wondering if you will survive it....

This style of fighting has never been exploited with Superman or his peers which is a shame as it would be interesting to see him face such a superior physically skilled opponent, a real credible challenge.



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J




If he was asleep or incapacitated how would she free him?

In both fights she was attempting to break a mental or magical hold - so knocking him out (in whatever way possible) would accomplish what exactly?

In the Max Lord incident she knew that the only way to free Kal would be to confront Max - and at THAT point she did incapacitate Kal - inflicting a wound she knew he would heal from - WITHOUT him losing conciousness.



> > Diana has never once attempted to put Kal down. In every fight they have had she was trying to save him whereas this Kryptonian female was trying to DEFEAT him. Theres a massive difference.
> >
> > Why would Diana inflict unnecessary harm on Kal? Why would she use pressure points to make him go out of control (and possibly hurt himself OR others)?
> >
> > It doesnt make sense.
> >
> > As you noted prior, Diana has used pressure point attacks before. Shes a martial artist. Should she be able to do that? Yes, of course. Would she? Of course not.
> >
> >
> Please J. take the day off \:\-\*
>
> It is a perfectly reasonable question, Nerve attacks and pressure points are a quick and harmless means of achieving her objectives in any Superman fight. Stopping and subduing him in an efficient clean manner without having to take his every punch and assault and wondering if you will survive it....
>
> This style of fighting has never been exploited with Superman or his peers which is a shame as it would be interesting to see him face such a superior physically skilled opponent, a real credible challenge.
>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
JesusFan




> You seem to fail to understand every confrontation Diana and Kal have had.
The point could be made the other one though... But I digress...
>
> Diana has never once attempted to put Kal down. In every fight they have had she was trying to save him whereas this Kryptonian female was trying to DEFEAT him. Theres a massive difference.

She has been overpowered by Supes every time that they have fought, said that she KNOWS that she cannot take him in a "real" fight, has had broken bonesm shown the worse for wear, and at her BEST, with much superior fighting skills, experience, and magical weapons, is able to only stalement him?
Guess that is the major difference.. Diana at her best is able to merely stalemate Supes, when he is mind controlled/altered, and not in his "right frame of mind, " or lese not fighting in earnest?
>
> Why would Diana inflict unnecessary harm on Kal? Why would she use pressure points to make him go out of control (and possibly hurt himself OR others)?
>
> It doesnt make sense.

Both times he was already "out of control", so why wouldn't she seek to stop the fight, but that is based upon an assumption that she actually could?
>
> As you noted prior, Diana has used pressure point attacks before. Shes a martial artist. Should she be able to do that? Yes, of course. Would she? Of course not.

Supes has trained with Bats, been fighting against other super powerful beings for awhile, had to survive depowered on war world, facing down fighting mad Mongul, and defeating him..
He has shown that his fighting skills not best in the DCU, butr better than just a"normal" level, and with his now enhanced mind in play, perhaps he will get to being a Master skill levels for fighting?
>
>
> >
> > Fair enough but Martial arts is martial arts.
> >
> > I'm more interested though in just how dangerous such an opponent would be for Superman - it's basically what Wonder Woman is made up to be right?
> > If you gave Shang Chi that sort of power would you agree he'd demolish Superman and if so why isn't WW capable of that sort of clear advantage?
> >
> > Or to be blunt - is she overrated in that regard? >:-|


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Beowulf




> Diana is the *best* of what the Amazons have to offer - not only philisophically or power (obviously) but in skill as well. This has been repeated (and proven during The Contest).
>

That is the problem. Again, we are comparing beings with class one superstrength with another possessing class 100 superstrength( in Diana's case rather more like class 1.000.000), not to mention speed.
A contest cannot be fair, since the deck is stacked already.

> Diana, as a child, was tested: a surprise attack left many of her Amazon sisters in critical condition causing Diana great fear in using her abilties - and proving just what she was capable of doing. After this Phillipus (among others) trained Diana in the use of her abilities AND taught her how to control the level of power she uses (as seen during sparring sessions with Batman, Black Canary and Lady Shiva to name a few...).
>

Which exactly proves my point. She was taught to hold back. She cannot go full power against beings, which don't possess her enhancements. She has to hold back, out of fear of hurting somebody.
In order to really hone her skills to the most, she would have to battle her peers. She would have to fight regulary against Superman, CM, Martian Manhunter, Big Barda etc... to really maximise her skills. A normal amazon couldn't really guage her skill-level, since she operates on a completely different level.

> The Contest, as written be WML had Diana powerless during the competition with 1/2 of her skill being transferred to Artemis (causing Diana to lose). The original Contest had Diana using her ability to control her speed & strength to match her Amazon sisters (and why would she lie? Shes the living embodiment of The Truth)...
>

That is just as belivable as Northstar not using his superspeed to win skiing matchs. In the end, he had to admit, that he didn't know for sure, if he had used his speed or not.
In Diana's case, it is even more drastic.
You cannot tell me, that she can somehow deactivate her far greater strength and choose not to use it.

> Hippolyta showed how trained in marital arts the Amazons are - she defeated Heracles in h2h combat even though he is Class 100 and she is only Class 10 - using far superior skill. Diana is better than her mother.

Apples and oranges. She is more powerful than her mother and stronger than Heracles, which means we are back to the problem. Also she know the amazon fighting style. I never said, that she was completly skill-less.
Only, that she is not as skilled as other non-powered fighters due to her greater powers preventing her from reaching that level.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows 98
J




See this is the problem: youre focusing on your opinion but dismissing and ignoring all of Wonder Woman continuity.

We are *told* that Diana *can* control her strength completely. You can say its unbelieveable but at the end of the day it doesnt matter bc its a fictional story - the comic book details that she does withhold her strength. If she didnt or couldnt she could never spar with Black Canary or Batman - they would stand NO chance - they would be injured beyond repair, really. Same when Diana spars with the Amazons.

Yet there are countless examples of Diana sparring with people far less powerful (even beings such as Troia and Cassie who are super powered and STILL less powerful).

And Diana has sparred with Superman and Barda as well.

And your Northstar analogy, while a good attempt, is unfair because your discussing 2 different characters. One is a selfish self centered non-hero and the other is the living emobodiment of truth who only wants to help people.
>
> That is the problem. Again, we are comparing beings with class one superstrength with another possessing class 100 superstrength( in Diana's case rather more like class 1.000.000), not to mention speed.
> A contest cannot be fair, since the deck is stacked already.
>
> > Diana, as a child, was tested: a surprise attack left many of her Amazon sisters in critical condition causing Diana great fear in using her abilties - and proving just what she was capable of doing. After this Phillipus (among others) trained Diana in the use of her abilities AND taught her how to control the level of power she uses (as seen during sparring sessions with Batman, Black Canary and Lady Shiva to name a few...).
> >
>
> Which exactly proves my point. She was taught to hold back. She cannot go full power against beings, which don't possess her enhancements. She has to hold back, out of fear of hurting somebody.
> In order to really hone her skills to the most, she would have to battle her peers. She would have to fight regulary against Superman, CM, Martian Manhunter, Big Barda etc... to really maximise her skills. A normal amazon couldn't really guage her skill-level, since she operates on a completely different level.
>
> > The Contest, as written be WML had Diana powerless during the competition with 1/2 of her skill being transferred to Artemis (causing Diana to lose). The original Contest had Diana using her ability to control her speed & strength to match her Amazon sisters (and why would she lie? Shes the living embodiment of The Truth)...
> >
>
> That is just as belivable as Northstar not using his superspeed to win skiing matchs. In the end, he had to admit, that he didn't know for sure, if he had used his speed or not.
> In Diana's case, it is even more drastic.
> You cannot tell me, that she can somehow deactivate her far greater strength and choose not to use it.
>
> > Hippolyta showed how trained in marital arts the Amazons are - she defeated Heracles in h2h combat even though he is Class 100 and she is only Class 10 - using far superior skill. Diana is better than her mother.
>
> Apples and oranges. She is more powerful than her mother and stronger than Heracles, which means we are back to the problem. Also she know the amazon fighting style. I never said, that she was completly skill-less.
> Only, that she is not as skilled as other non-powered fighters due to her greater powers preventing her from reaching that level.
>
>


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