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MB




My friend, in his ignorance, insists that Luke Skywalked had superceded Vader in power by the end of the final movie. I, of course, laughed at him and explained that Vader wasn't really trying to beat Luke, and if he was, it would have been a repeat of their fight in Cloud City.

My friend, in his mental insanity, says that in the time between V and VI, Luke grew stronger, and beat Vader in a fair fight, or at the very least, could have if he'd wanted to. He points to Luke taking Vader's hand as proof. I pointed out that Vader spent half the fight goading him and blocking, and didn't use any of his powers in the fight like he did in cloud city.

Alas, I see no way to tell for certain, so I thought I'd see what the majority of the board thought.

Note: The important point, however, is that all arguments have to be made using episodes IV-VI preferably, I-III if necessary, and not any outside material (novels).

Anyone have an opinion? There's some videos of the fights on youtube if you need a refresher.


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The Pumpkinhead




> My friend, in his ignorance, insists that Luke Skywalked had superceded Vader in power by the end of the final movie. I, of course, laughed at him and explained that Vader wasn't really trying to beat Luke, and if he was, it would have been a repeat of their fight in Cloud City.
>
> My friend, in his mental insanity, says that in the time between V and VI, Luke grew stronger, and beat Vader in a fair fight, or at the very least, could have if he'd wanted to. He points to Luke taking Vader's hand as proof. I pointed out that Vader spent half the fight goading him and blocking, and didn't use any of his powers in the fight like he did in cloud city.
>
> Alas, I see no way to tell for certain, so I thought I'd see what the majority of the board thought.
>
> Note: The important point, however, is that all arguments have to be made using episodes IV-VI preferably, I-III if necessary, and not any outside material (novels).
>
> Anyone have an opinion? There's some videos of the fights on youtube if you need a refresher.


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sheridan




i see it like this. luke was still a jedi wannabe by the time he showed up to fight vader in "return." vader was taunting him, etc, to get him to use his anger and (as a direct result), turn to the dark side. the problem was, that when luke used his anger, it was more than vader could handle. so for that brief period of time, luke was "stronger."

it is worth noting, however, that vader wasn't trying to kill luke. rather, he was just trying to turn him. if vader opened up on luke, i doubt luke would have survived. but, again, for that short time, luke was stronger....though i don't think "on balance" luke comes anywhere close to vader in power level.

sheridan


> > My friend, in his ignorance, insists that Luke Skywalked had superceded Vader in power by the end of the final movie. I, of course, laughed at him and explained that Vader wasn't really trying to beat Luke, and if he was, it would have been a repeat of their fight in Cloud City.
> >
> > My friend, in his mental insanity, says that in the time between V and VI, Luke grew stronger, and beat Vader in a fair fight, or at the very least, could have if he'd wanted to. He points to Luke taking Vader's hand as proof. I pointed out that Vader spent half the fight goading him and blocking, and didn't use any of his powers in the fight like he did in cloud city.
> >
> > Alas, I see no way to tell for certain, so I thought I'd see what the majority of the board thought.
> >
> > Note: The important point, however, is that all arguments have to be made using episodes IV-VI preferably, I-III if necessary, and not any outside material (novels).
> >
> > Anyone have an opinion? There's some videos of the fights on youtube if you need a refresher.


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MB




> i see it like this. luke was still a jedi wannabe by the time he showed up to fight vader in "return." vader was taunting him, etc, to get him to use his anger and (as a direct result), turn to the dark side. the problem was, that when luke used his anger, it was more than vader could handle. so for that brief period of time, luke was "stronger."
>
> it is worth noting, however, that vader wasn't trying to kill luke. rather, he was just trying to turn him. if vader opened up on luke, i doubt luke would have survived. but, again, for that short time, luke was stronger....though i don't think "on balance" luke comes anywhere close to vader in power level.
>
> sheridan

No way, Vader had to go down. Just like Dooku did, in order to get Luke to turn, he has to cross some line. If Vader had beaten Luke, it doesn't accomplish anything. If Vader holds luke off, it doesn't accomplish anything. The emperor and vader needed Luke to kill or seriously injure vader. That's why after luke did it, the emperor thought he had won.

When luke came back from the brink and said he was still good, that's when the emperor fried him.

You really think even a dark side luke is better than vader?


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sheridan




dark side luke still gets wrecked by dark side vader when everything's on the line. the prophecy seems clear that vader would be the strongest jedi of all.

the problem is that vader was clearly holding back b/c he didn't want to kill his son, just get him to turn. but vader's "holding back" mode is not as great as luke's "go for it all" mode.

it's pure speculation on my part, but here's how i see it.

the emperor wanted luke to kill vader b/c it was clear that vader was too strong for emperor to control indefinately. i think the emperor would have preferred luke to turn w/o killing vader, but figured he wouldn't be able to make that happen. he also figured that he wouldn't be able to get vader to kill luke straight up, and that vader would turn against him to protect luke (which he ultimately did). so he gave vader leeway to try to turn luke, so as to keep vader happy.

the last attempt to get luke to turn (final fight) didn't work when luke pulled back. so emperor fried luke b/c he figured vader would appreciate having his life spared. emperor easily outclassed luke, but, as we know, was betrayed by vader.

so: vader > emperor > luke. vader didn't want to kill luke, but for that brief moment, luke wanted to kill vader. so again, that moment (and that moment only), luke was stronger. it doesn't matter that vader was holding back. the result is all that matters. but like i said, vader would easily beat luke if both are fighting for it all.

sheridan

> > i see it like this. luke was still a jedi wannabe by the time he showed up to fight vader in "return." vader was taunting him, etc, to get him to use his anger and (as a direct result), turn to the dark side. the problem was, that when luke used his anger, it was more than vader could handle. so for that brief period of time, luke was "stronger."
> >
> > it is worth noting, however, that vader wasn't trying to kill luke. rather, he was just trying to turn him. if vader opened up on luke, i doubt luke would have survived. but, again, for that short time, luke was stronger....though i don't think "on balance" luke comes anywhere close to vader in power level.
> >
> > sheridan
>
> No way, Vader had to go down. Just like Dooku did, in order to get Luke to turn, he has to cross some line. If Vader had beaten Luke, it doesn't accomplish anything. If Vader holds luke off, it doesn't accomplish anything. The emperor and vader needed Luke to kill or seriously injure vader. That's why after luke did it, the emperor thought he had won.
>
> When luke came back from the brink and said he was still good, that's when the emperor fried him.
>
> You really think even a dark side luke is better than vader?


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PoetTree





.... is that Luke's final battle with Vader was kind of his graduation as a Jedi, much like the death of Padme was the final graduation for Anakin as a Sith. When Luke & Vader battled that last time, I believe that they were very close in power. No, Vader wasn't going all-out to kill Luke. But then again, Luke was trying his best not to fight at all. Vader wasn't so much "toying with him", as he was simply trying to goad Luke into raising his Saber against him. For the better part of the conflict, Luke refused. When he finally did, he took Vader down in a hurry. And at that point, I don't believe there was any toying around on either of their parts.

That being said, when Luke refused to finish Vader off it was kind of his inaguration, his graduation into being a full-fledged Jedi. He had resisted the Dark Side. He had won. And I'd say that his power was close enough then to Vader's to make him a match.

Furthermore, I believe that Luke is actually the "most-powerful-Jedi-ever" that the prophecy once spoke of. They mistakenly believed that it was Anakin. In fact, though, it was his son. Remember when Mace & Yoda are discussing the prophecy in (I believe) Episode 1. Mace talks about Anakin seeming to be the one the prophecy talks about, and Yoda responds with...

"A prophecy which misread could have been."

I believe that Anakin had all the potential in the world. But I think the later allusion is that the prophecy was not really about him, but rather, Luke. As in the story for the final 3 Episodes (7,8,9), Luke apparently becomes a bad-ass to end all bad-asses. It's revealed that there are actually other Sith in the Galaxy, and if I remember correctly they were Palpatine's superiors. They covet Leia and her growing power, and Luke must protect her from them. That's the general story.

In that story, as I understand it, Luke becomes a Jedi like the Universe had never known, propelled by his graduation (the last fight with Vader) in Return of the Jedi. He becomes the prophecy, like his father had the potential (but not the destiny) to do.

And so, in terms of where each of them were for that last fight, I'd say it's possible that Luke had already surpassed Vader in power. After al, that's why the Emporer wanted to replace him with Luke. Just as he had hoped for before between Dooku and Anakin, the Emporer wanted someone younger and more powerful. He specifically says this. And so, I imagine he wanted Luke for the very same reasons.

I mean, if Luke hadn't been a step up from Vader, I don't think the Emporer would have bothered at all. He would have just had Vader kill Luke and continue reigning supreme as he had been. But he feared Luke's power, for he knew how great it was. And so, sought to harness it... at the cost of his former Padowan....

So yeah, it's not exactly clear what their respective power levels were at that point. But I think it was at least very close, with Luke potentially already being over-the-top. 'Cause when he kicked Vader's butt at the end, that wasn't Vader going willingly or just toying around. He got beat.

His son was the fulfillment of the prophecy. And so, knowing that, all bets are off...















Peace and Love

- PoetTree -


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sheridan




this is a pretty good take, too. while i'm still convinced of my position, i think you raise quite good arguments as well.

sheridan

>
> .... is that Luke's final battle with Vader was kind of his graduation as a Jedi, much like the death of Padme was the final graduation for Anakin as a Sith. When Luke & Vader battled that last time, I believe that they were very close in power. No, Vader wasn't going all-out to kill Luke. But then again, Luke was trying his best not to fight at all. Vader wasn't so much "toying with him", as he was simply trying to goad Luke into raising his Saber against him. For the better part of the conflict, Luke refused. When he finally did, he took Vader down in a hurry. And at that point, I don't believe there was any toying around on either of their parts.
>
> That being said, when Luke refused to finish Vader off it was kind of his inaguration, his graduation into being a full-fledged Jedi. He had resisted the Dark Side. He had won. And I'd say that his power was close enough then to Vader's to make him a match.
>
> Furthermore, I believe that Luke is actually the "most-powerful-Jedi-ever" that the prophecy once spoke of. They mistakenly believed that it was Anakin. In fact, though, it was his son. Remember when Mace & Yoda are discussing the prophecy in (I believe) Episode 1. Mace talks about Anakin seeming to be the one the prophecy talks about, and Yoda responds with...
>
> "A prophecy which misread could have been."
>
> I believe that Anakin had all the potential in the world. But I think the later allusion is that the prophecy was not really about him, but rather, Luke. As in the story for the final 3 Episodes (7,8,9), Luke apparently becomes a bad-ass to end all bad-asses. It's revealed that there are actually other Sith in the Galaxy, and if I remember correctly they were Palpatine's superiors. They covet Leia and her growing power, and Luke must protect her from them. That's the general story.
>
> In that story, as I understand it, Luke becomes a Jedi like the Universe had never known, propelled by his graduation (the last fight with Vader) in Return of the Jedi. He becomes the prophecy, like his father had the potential (but not the destiny) to do.
>
> And so, in terms of where each of them were for that last fight, I'd say it's possible that Luke had already surpassed Vader in power. After al, that's why the Emporer wanted to replace him with Luke. Just as he had hoped for before between Dooku and Anakin, the Emporer wanted someone younger and more powerful. He specifically says this. And so, I imagine he wanted Luke for the very same reasons.
>
> I mean, if Luke hadn't been a step up from Vader, I don't think the Emporer would have bothered at all. He would have just had Vader kill Luke and continue reigning supreme as he had been. But he feared Luke's power, for he knew how great it was. And so, sought to harness it... at the cost of his former Padowan....
>
> So yeah, it's not exactly clear what their respective power levels were at that point. But I think it was at least very close, with Luke potentially already being over-the-top. 'Cause when he kicked Vader's butt at the end, that wasn't Vader going willingly or just toying around. He got beat.
>
> His son was the fulfillment of the prophecy. And so, knowing that, all bets are off...
>
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> Peace and Love
>
> - PoetTree -


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