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Daveym




Now What's all this guff about Wonderman being Wonder-lite?! ;->




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Lord Majestros




> Now What's all this guff about Wonderman being Wonder-lite?! ;->
>
Lord Majestros:
More often than not, he's been written as VERY close to someone like Thor physically with the margin between the two being negligible at best. In the first handbook (which WAS NOT the Master Edition for anyone reading this that thinks it was) the two were actually listed with the same strength level (95 tons). However, some have written the gap being greater. "Wonderman" #25 actually officially made Simon top tier class 100 level, but Busiek ignored that powerup except for the flying part. Point being, the majority of continuity puts Simon VERY close to Thor physically.


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Ironguy




> Lord Majestros:
> More often than not, he's been written as VERY close to someone like Thor physically with the margin between the two being negligible at best. In the first handbook (which WAS NOT the Master Edition for anyone reading this that thinks it was) the two were actually listed with the same strength level (95 tons). However, some have written the gap being greater. "Wonderman" #25 actually officially made Simon top tier class 100 level, but Busiek ignored that powerup except for the flying part. Point being, the majority of continuity puts Simon VERY close to Thor physically.

...with far less skill, experience and without the powers of mjolnir. Simon's power up turned him into Charlton's E-man imo. Unfortunately, the look that Busiek and Perez gave him made him seem unsolid.

Wondy's skin is no doubt tougher than Thor's and probably tougher than Hulk's on a surface level but overall I would say he's more likely to be koed if hit with an exotic, powerful force. In short...Wondy still has the glass jaw of a bad guy class 100 or not. His durability doesn't go deep enough.




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Kwan Jang Nim




> > Now What's all this guff about Wonderman being Wonder-lite?! ;->
> >
> Lord Majestros:
> More often than not, he's been written as VERY close to someone like Thor physically with the margin between the two being negligible at best. In the first handbook (which WAS NOT the Master Edition for anyone reading this that thinks it was) the two were actually listed with the same strength level (95 tons). However, some have written the gap being greater. "Wonderman" #25 actually officially made Simon top tier class 100 level, but Busiek ignored that powerup except for the flying part. Point being, the majority of continuity puts Simon VERY close to Thor physically.

>>It's pretty obvious from the scans that Wonderman is at least the equal of Thor physically. I've noticed the tendency on this board for far too many posters to ignore or throw out what has happened in continuity (or at least twist it so much that it is unrecognizable) in favor of their own view of the characters. Granted, the comic companies themselves are often inconsistant, but come on people.


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XYB




I think Wonder Man should be top tier as well, but not as strong as Thor. Actually, the ORIGINAL handbook listed Thor at 95 and Wonder Man at 90. They've had several instances where they showed that Wonder Man is not in Thor's class. Yeah, he had a good showing against Thor in that West Coast Avengers annual, but we all know that Thor has been on Marvel's SPIT LIST for decades now. The Thor of the 60's and 70's would have NEVER been that week. And as far as that Handbook, there was absolutely NO reason to list Thor below Hercules. Personally, I like Wonder Man to be stronger than the Thing and Namor, but weaker than Thor and the Hulk. However, he should be the most physically invulnerable of all of them.

In my opinion, Wonder Man was ruined when they kept that "fear of death" character trait too long. Anybody remember how tough and what a cool character he was when he beat both Namor and the Vision? He was strong, and talked like a hard rock. Now THAT was quinessential Wonder Man to me. The guy they've had since then...I don't know who he is.

XYB



> > Lord Majestros:
> > More often than not, he's been written as VERY close to someone like Thor physically with the margin between the two being negligible at best. In the first handbook (which WAS NOT the Master Edition for anyone reading this that thinks it was) the two were actually listed with the same strength level (95 tons). However, some have written the gap being greater. "Wonderman" #25 actually officially made Simon top tier class 100 level, but Busiek ignored that powerup except for the flying part. Point being, the majority of continuity puts Simon VERY close to Thor physically.
>
> ...with far less skill, experience and without the powers of mjolnir. Simon's power up turned him into Charlton's E-man imo. Unfortunately, the look that Busiek and Perez gave him made him seem unsolid.
>
> Wondy's skin is no doubt tougher than Thor's and probably tougher than Hulk's on a surface level but overall I would say he's more likely to be koed if hit with an exotic, powerful force. In short...Wondy still has the glass jaw of a bad guy class 100 or not. His durability doesn't go deep enough.
>
>


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Kwan Jang Nim




> I think Wonder Man should be top tier as well, but not as strong as Thor. Actually, the ORIGINAL handbook listed Thor at 95 and Wonder Man at 90. They've had several instances where they showed that Wonder Man is not in Thor's class. Yeah, he had a good showing against Thor in that West Coast Avengers annual, but we all know that Thor has been on Marvel's SPIT LIST for decades now. The Thor of the 60's and 70's would have NEVER been that week. And as far as that Handbook, there was absolutely NO reason to list Thor below Hercules. Personally, I like Wonder Man to be stronger than the Thing and Namor, but weaker than Thor and the Hulk. However, he should be the most physically invulnerable of all of them.
>
> In my opinion, Wonder Man was ruined when they kept that "fear of death" character trait too long. Anybody remember how tough and what a cool character he was when he beat both Namor and the Vision? He was strong, and talked like a hard rock. Now THAT was quinessential Wonder Man to me. The guy they've had since then...I don't know who he is.
>
> XYB
>
>
>
> > > Lord Majestros:
> > > More often than not, he's been written as VERY close to someone like Thor physically with the margin between the two being negligible at best. In the first handbook (which WAS NOT the Master Edition for anyone reading this that thinks it was) the two were actually listed with the same strength level (95 tons). However, some have written the gap being greater. "Wonderman" #25 actually officially made Simon top tier class 100 level, but Busiek ignored that powerup except for the flying part. Point being, the majority of continuity puts Simon VERY close to Thor physically.
> >
> > ...with far less skill, experience and without the powers of mjolnir. Simon's power up turned him into Charlton's E-man imo. Unfortunately, the look that Busiek and Perez gave him made him seem unsolid.
> >
> > Wondy's skin is no doubt tougher than Thor's and probably tougher than Hulk's on a surface level but overall I would say he's more likely to be koed if hit with an exotic, powerful force. In short...Wondy still has the glass jaw of a bad guy class 100 or not. His durability doesn't go deep enough.
> >
> >


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Grubs




> I think Wonder Man should be top tier as well, but not as strong as Thor.

By all accounts no non-deity in either comicbook universe should be able to match a deity in strength. But again, this is a comicbook.

>Actually, the ORIGINAL handbook listed Thor at 95 and Wonder Man at 90.

Simon has drawbacks which neither Thor nor the Hulk possess. Even if Wonderman started out as strong as either one the Hulk alone would quickly surpass it as that is his mantra, getting stronger as he gets angrier and as the fight goes on.

>They've had several instances where they showed that Wonder Man is not in Thor's class. Yeah, he had a good showing against Thor in that West Coast Avengers annual, but we all know that Thor has been on Marvel's SPIT LIST for decades now.


Not really. If you listen to Stan Lee's reasons for introducing Thor you will see that future writers eventually realized that having Thor in a comicbook was ludicrous even for a comicbook. He's a god for crying out loud!! So other writers decided that although he is listed as a god, in their opinion that is just a myth and the facts are that he and the Asgardians are just superpowered aliens for which they can and will power down or power up.


>The Thor of the 60's and 70's would have NEVER been that week. And as far as that Handbook, there was absolutely NO reason to list Thor below Hercules.

Hercules was the demi-god of strength. Strength was his calling card. Thor is the god of thunder. There is no reason to assume that Thor would be stronger than the god whose sole mantra is strength. So yes, Hercules should be listed stronger than Thor. Nor would we expect Hercules to be more able to summon the thunder and the lightning greater than Thor?


>Personally, I like Wonder Man to be stronger than the Thing and Namor, but weaker than Thor and the Hulk. However, he should be the most physically invulnerable of all of them.
>


Why? Cause of his skin alone? There is no reason to think that the process that resulted in Simon's invulnerability is any greater than that which created either Thor's or the Hulk's. And Namor's strength underwater is one of his advantages. While there he should have the ability to match anyone.



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Frank




> I think Wonder Man should be top tier as well, but not as strong as Thor. Actually, the ORIGINAL handbook listed Thor at 95 and Wonder Man at 90. They've had several instances where they showed that Wonder Man is not in Thor's class. Yeah, he had a good showing against Thor in that West Coast Avengers annual, but we all know that Thor has been on Marvel's SPIT LIST for decades now. The Thor of the 60's and 70's would have NEVER been that week. And as far as that Handbook, there was absolutely NO reason to list Thor below Hercules. Personally, I like Wonder Man to be stronger than the Thing and Namor, but weaker than Thor and the Hulk. However, he should be the most physically invulnerable of all of them.

Actually, it was the Thor(and the rest of the Avengers)of the 60's that Wonder Man beat in Avengers vol 1 issue 9. But I agree with what you say. Wonder Man is a notch below Thor but well above the Thing and a tad above a wet(but out of water)Namor.

-thefman-



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DS




> By all accounts no non-deity in either comicbook universe should be able to match a deity in strength. But again, this is a comicbook.

Key point - "deity" does not mean in Marvel what it means in reality!

In the Marvel universe "gods" are merely extra-dimensional aliens that have been worshipped in the past. There is no suggestion that the universe was created a la Norse or Greek mythology - the Marvel universe sticks reasonably (this is debatable) close to a simplified version of conventional scientific wisdom.

Therefore there is no reason whatsoever that Thor and say Superman, Wonderman, the Hulk, the Silver Surfer or any other powerful comic-book hero shouldn't be similar in strength because one a "god" and another a mere "alien" or mere "mortal" this makes no sense whatsoever. Consider what the Norse would have thought if superman or wonderman had shown up, I suspect they would quickly have been incorporated into the mythos as "gods". The word "god" is just that, a word with several logical consequences springing from it in the Marvel universe such as "immortality" and "worship" and some forms of superhuman power. Some "gods" in Marvel are fairly weak, others (Odin, Zeus) very powerful.

For me (and I think most readers of this board) at least it isn't self-evident that just because a comic book character is based on a mythological character they must be superior to a comic-book character who is not!


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rukkdeez




> I think Wonder Man should be top tier as well, but not as strong as Thor. Actually, the ORIGINAL handbook listed Thor at 95 and Wonder Man at 90. They've had several instances where they showed that Wonder Man is not in Thor's class. Yeah, he had a good showing against Thor in that West Coast Avengers annual, but we all know that Thor has been on Marvel's SPIT LIST for decades now. The Thor of the 60's and 70's would have NEVER been that week. And as far as that Handbook, there was absolutely NO reason to list Thor below Hercules. Personally, I like Wonder Man to be stronger than the Thing and Namor, but weaker than Thor and the Hulk. However, he should be the most physically invulnerable of all of them.
>
> In my opinion, Wonder Man was ruined when they kept that "fear of death" character trait too long. Anybody remember how tough and what a cool character he was when he beat both Namor and the Vision? He was strong, and talked like a hard rock. Now THAT was quinessential Wonder Man to me. The guy they've had since then...I don't know who he is.

The fight I remember was when Vision had issues regarding his humanity and started the fight with Simon. As I recall that fight ended in a draw with both seemingly on their last legs. Was there another battle I don't recall after this one? I do remember the fight with Namor. Simon did indeed knock Namor the !@#$ out! (Apologies to KJN LOL)
>
> XYB
>
>
>
> > > Lord Majestros:
> > > More often than not, he's been written as VERY close to someone like Thor physically with the margin between the two being negligible at best. In the first handbook (which WAS NOT the Master Edition for anyone reading this that thinks it was) the two were actually listed with the same strength level (95 tons). However, some have written the gap being greater. "Wonderman" #25 actually officially made Simon top tier class 100 level, but Busiek ignored that powerup except for the flying part. Point being, the majority of continuity puts Simon VERY close to Thor physically.
> >
> > ...with far less skill, experience and without the powers of mjolnir. Simon's power up turned him into Charlton's E-man imo. Unfortunately, the look that Busiek and Perez gave him made him seem unsolid.
> >
> > Wondy's skin is no doubt tougher than Thor's and probably tougher than Hulk's on a surface level but overall I would say he's more likely to be koed if hit with an exotic, powerful force. In short...Wondy still has the glass jaw of a bad guy class 100 or not. His durability doesn't go deep enough.
> >
> >


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rukkdeez




> > By all accounts no non-deity in either comicbook universe should be able to match a deity in strength. But again, this is a comicbook.

Why is this? The average "god" has a strength level of 25-25 tons. Beings like Thor, Hercules, Odin, Zeus, Pluto are the exceptions, not the rule when it comes to "deities" in comics.
>
> Key point - "deity" does not mean in Marvel what it means in reality!
>
> In the Marvel universe "gods" are merely extra-dimensional aliens that have been worshipped in the past. There is no suggestion that the universe was created a la Norse or Greek mythology - the Marvel universe sticks reasonably (this is debatable) close to a simplified version of conventional scientific wisdom.
>
> Therefore there is no reason whatsoever that Thor and say Superman, Wonderman, the Hulk, the Silver Surfer or any other powerful comic-book hero shouldn't be similar in strength because one a "god" and another a mere "alien" or mere "mortal" this makes no sense whatsoever. Consider what the Norse would have thought if superman or wonderman had shown up, I suspect they would quickly have been incorporated into the mythos as "gods". The word "god" is just that, a word with several logical consequences springing from it in the Marvel universe such as "immortality" and "worship" and some forms of superhuman power. Some "gods" in Marvel are fairly weak, others (Odin, Zeus) very powerful.
>
> For me (and I think most readers of this board) at least it isn't self-evident that just because a comic book character is based on a mythological character they must be superior to a comic-book character who is not!


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nightman




this is probably based upon our discussion that we had that wonderman is not in thor's class. That issue was biased towards wonderman; the writer was tired of thor being top dog in the avengers and gave wonderman a good showing which should not have happened. Besides, if thor cuts loose,wondy would not have a chance. \:\-\|


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nightman




thor is stronger than wonderman, not by much, but he is; deal with it.


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nightman




wondy is not more durable than thor and especially not the hulk. In avengers 49, thor and wondy were exposed to a massive explosion; thor got up after it, wondy did not.


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nightman




wonderman sucker punched thor in avengers 9; he certainly did not beat him.


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Daveym




> this is probably based upon our discussion that we had that wonderman is not in thor's class. That issue was biased towards wonderman; the writer was tired of thor being top dog in the avengers and gave wonderman a good showing which should not have happened. Besides, if thor cuts loose,wondy would not have a chance. \:\-\|

You really don't read much other than the Hulk do you? ;->

I'll not comment on what you said, rather i'll post another example of Wondermans 'inferiority' shall I? ;\-\)


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nightman




your assumption that i do not read more than hulk comics is in error. I know wonderman is powerful, but he is not as strong as thor. Kurt busiek said as much. I know he can beat the abomination; almost anyone can do that. Even she hulk beat him. Abommy does not get enough respect. \:\-\)


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Daveym




> your assumption that i do not read more than hulk comics is in error. I know wonderman is powerful, but he is not as strong as thor. Kurt busiek said as much. I know he can beat the abomination; almost anyone can do that. Even she hulk beat him. Abommy does not get enough respect. \:\-\)

Prove to me he is definitly not as strong as Thor.

The West Coast Avengers Annual I posted was an example of how powerful they are respetive of each other, you obviously don't agree and that's fine but it is right there in print along with many other examples that suggest there is not much of a gap at all between them physically!


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nightman




prove to me that he is as strong as thor. I seem to remember thor defeating the abomination with one punch in thor 178, while wonderman had to work for it.


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Daveym




> prove to me that he is as strong as thor. I seem to remember thor defeating the abomination with one punch in thor 178, while wonderman had to work for it.

So?! Anyone an take anyone who isn't expecting it.

So Thor sucker punches Abomination... while Wonderman grinds a deserved win \:\-\*


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nightman




you would have to come up with that excuse. \:\-\) Thor did not sucker punch the abomination; while he did not know it was coming, he was facing thor and got knocked out. You gotta face it guy, wondy is not in thor's strength class, although he is close.


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nightman




it took one punch from thor to defeat the abomination as oppposed to wonderman hitting him many times. Now who is the stronger? Thor!


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Frank




> wonderman sucker punched thor in avengers 9; he certainly did not beat him.

Oh, I agree Wonder Man sucker punched Thor, but he also separated him from his hammer and trapped him under a boulder. Like with Superman, I'm not saying Wonder Man is stronger than Thor but take away that blasted hammer and it's close. I really haven't disagreed with much you had to say on this, Nightman. As a long time Wonder Man fan, I'm just happy you got people to talk about Wondy in a positive way for once.

Peace!

-thefman-



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nightman




wonderman clearly got stronger as the years went by; no doubt about it, he is a force to be reckoned with.


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The Truth




If someone walked up to you and in the middle of your sentence, they busted you in the face, you would not consider that a sucker punch?

> you would have to come up with that excuse. \:\-\) Thor did not sucker punch the abomination; while he did not know it was coming, he was facing thor and got knocked out. You gotta face it guy, wondy is not in thor's strength class, although he is close.


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gumbo




> wonderman sucker punched thor in avengers 9; he certainly did not beat him.

But it counts for Thor when he does that to the Abomination?


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gumbo




> > > By all accounts no non-deity in either comicbook universe should be able to match a deity in strength. But again, this is a comicbook.
>
> Why is this? The average "god" has a strength level of 25-25 tons. Beings like Thor, Hercules, Odin, Zeus, Pluto are the exceptions, not the rule when it comes to "deities" in comics.
> >

Heck thats the truth in the myths as well, these were the big boys, aside from his son Thor was the strongest Asgaardian and greatest warrior.

Zues was the most powerful of the gods, Pluto a fairly powerful one as well Hercules had incredible strength that rivaled any of the gods.

Odin shaped the universe along with his brothers from the body of a dead giant I believe.


> > Key point - "deity" does not mean in Marvel what it means in reality!
> >
> > In the Marvel universe "gods" are merely extra-dimensional aliens that have been worshipped in the past. There is no suggestion that the universe was created a la Norse or Greek mythology - the Marvel universe sticks reasonably (this is debatable) close to a simplified version of conventional scientific wisdom.
> >
> > Therefore there is no reason whatsoever that Thor and say Superman, Wonderman, the Hulk, the Silver Surfer or any other powerful comic-book hero shouldn't be similar in strength because one a "god" and another a mere "alien" or mere "mortal" this makes no sense whatsoever. Consider what the Norse would have thought if superman or wonderman had shown up, I suspect they would quickly have been incorporated into the mythos as "gods". The word "god" is just that, a word with several logical consequences springing from it in the Marvel universe such as "immortality" and "worship" and some forms of superhuman power. Some "gods" in Marvel are fairly weak, others (Odin, Zeus) very powerful.
> >
> > For me (and I think most readers of this board) at least it isn't self-evident that just because a comic book character is based on a mythological character they must be superior to a comic-book character who is not!


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Olympian




> > By all accounts no non-deity in either comicbook universe should be able to match a deity in strength. But again, this is a comicbook.
>
> Key point - "deity" does not mean in Marvel what it means in reality!
>
> In the Marvel universe "gods" are merely extra-dimensional aliens that have been worshipped in the past. There is no suggestion that the universe was created a la Norse or Greek mythology - the Marvel universe sticks reasonably (this is debatable) close to a simplified version of conventional scientific wisdom.

Thats not the Marvel continuity take, tho.

>
> Therefore there is no reason whatsoever that Thor and say Superman, Wonderman, the Hulk, the Silver Surfer or any other powerful comic-book hero shouldn't be similar in strength because one a "god" and another a mere "alien" or mere "mortal" this makes no sense whatsoever. Consider what the Norse would have thought if superman or wonderman had shown up, I suspect they would quickly have been incorporated into the mythos as "gods". The word "god" is just that, a word with several logical consequences springing from it in the Marvel universe such as "immortality" and "worship" and some forms of superhuman power. Some "gods" in Marvel are fairly weak, others (Odin, Zeus) very powerful.
>
> For me (and I think most readers of this board) at least it isn't self-evident that just because a comic book character is based on a mythological character they must be superior to a comic-book character who is not!


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