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The Last Word




There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.

Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.

Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.



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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



> Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.

Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...

...And Now back to work. \:\)



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Defensor




Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."

So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.


> There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
>
> Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
>
> Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
>



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The Last Word




> Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
>
> So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
>

Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.

>
> > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> >
> > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> >
> > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> >



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
The Last Word




>
> > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
>
> Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
>
> ...And Now back to work. \:\)
>


Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.


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Defensor




> > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> >
> > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> >
>
> Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
>
> >
> > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > >
> > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > >



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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



> >
> > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> >
> > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> >
> > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> >

>
> Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.

Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.



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J




> There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.

I agree with the above. I do think the strength levels are relatively equal.

It seems that Kurt Busiek and George Perez meant to explain WHY DC characters are a bit stronger (and faster) by stating that the DC Earth is larger... however any difference in strength between the peers (Thor, Herc, WW, Supes) is probably negligible and, IMO, not very evident in a fight AT ALL.

> Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time.

*IF* she ever fought him with the intent to put him down then maybe we would see that. As it stands there has never been a confrontation between the 2 premier DC heroes where Diana set out to demolish Superman. In both of their major fights her intent was to save him while doing her best to survive and not harm him.

> Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point.

But it doesn't miss the point. If 2 speedsters are racing and one is giving his all and the other is not then how can you properly determine which is faster??

> That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him

Has he ever bested her? In both of their fights his mission was to kill her. He failed. In both of their fights her mission was to free him and she succeeded. That is a win.

> Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.

Which doesn't make any sense because CM & BA share the same source of speed as Diana. It also doesn't make sense because they lack all of her other abilities (truth, illusions, empathy, telepathy, astral projection/teleportation, enhanced senses).

As far as Thor goes JLA/Avengers showed Diana to be stronger than Wonder Man who in turn is ALMOST as strong as Thor. Logic then dictates that Diana and Thor are at least equals in strength.



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J




...although Marvels Hercules was shown to not have actually performed them all on his own...

> > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> >
> > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> >
>
> Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
>
> >
> > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > >
> > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > >



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ARCHNEMESIS




I believe that Superman is necessarily stronger than either Thor or Wonder Woman. If Thor was equally strong, then having a weapon like a hammer would easily make him the favorite, especially if the hammer is magical. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being given a baseball bat to use against you. Who do you think is going to win every time? In order to make it an even battle, Superman would really HAVE to have an edge in strength. Otherwise, it shouldn't be much of a contest.

Ditto with Wonder Woman. J states that Wonder Woman is about as strong as Superman, but far more skilled. If that's the case, Superman should NOT be the top dog in DC - Wonder Woman should. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being trained in dozens of martial arts for his entire life and given body armor and a whip. The untrained version of you couldn't possibly be considered more powerful.

So I hold that Superman is the strongest among the DC heroes, and Hulk is the strongest among the Marvel heroes because it's the only way they would be able to stay competitive against some of the other characters with more gear or special abilities.

>
> > >
> > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> > >
> > > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> > >
> > > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> > >

> >
> > Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.
>
> Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.
>




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Defensor




> I believe that Superman is necessarily stronger than either Thor or Wonder Woman. If Thor was equally strong, then having a weapon like a hammer would easily make him the favorite, especially if the hammer is magical. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being given a baseball bat to use against you. Who do you think is going to win every time? In order to make it an even battle, Superman would really HAVE to have an edge in strength. Otherwise, it shouldn't be much of a contest.
>
> Ditto with Wonder Woman. J states that Wonder Woman is about as strong as Superman, but far more skilled. If that's the case, Superman should NOT be the top dog in DC - Wonder Woman should. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being trained in dozens of martial arts for his entire life and given body armor and a whip. The untrained version of you couldn't possibly be considered more powerful.
>
> So I hold that Superman is the strongest among the DC heroes, and Hulk is the strongest among the Marvel heroes because it's the only way they would be able to stay competitive against some of the other characters with more gear or special abilities.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> > > >
> > > > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > > > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> > > >
> > > > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> > > >

> > >
> > > Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.
> >
> > Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.
> >




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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,975


Superman is as strong as Captain Marvel who gets his strength from Hercules. Unless she is stronger than either of them then this is just hyperbole and she is at best as strong as Hercules if not weaker.


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J




> Superman is as strong as Captain Marvel who gets his strength from Hercules. Unless she is stronger than either of them then this is just hyperbole and she is at best as strong as Hercules if not weaker.

Here is your mistake: Superman is STRONGER than Captain Marvel.

FYI she herself has stated she is stronger than Hercules in continuity...

Check the scan, direct from DC's mouth:





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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,975


> > Superman is as strong as Captain Marvel who gets his strength from Hercules. Unless she is stronger than either of them then this is just hyperbole and she is at best as strong as Hercules if not weaker.
>
> Here is your mistake: Superman is STRONGER than Captain Marvel.
>
> FYI she herself has stated she is stronger than Hercules in continuity...
>
> Check the scan, direct from DC's mouth:
>
Has any of this ever actually been shown in the comics because a company can often say one thing, but then all the writers portray it differently. When has Superman ever been shown to be stronger than Captain Marvel. As far as I am aware all of their battles/feats are comparable and have them being equal.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.1 on Windows XP
J




k the scan, direct from DC's mouth:
> >
> Has any of this ever actually been shown in the comics because a company can often say one thing, but then all the writers portray it differently. When has Superman ever been shown to be stronger than Captain Marvel. As far as I am aware all of their battles/feats are comparable and have them being equal.

Judging by the fights Captain Marvel lost twice.

Until one character ATTEMPTS to perform a feat and fails and another character succeeds then it's hard to gauge anything that way...

What we are left with is company verdict. Fights, feats and the like vary by writer, editor & even artist. The bottom line, however, is determined by the company who owns said characters.


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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



It's not just his regenerative ability it's his ferocity and his 'anything to win' mentality.
Whenever he's being discussed here it's using the fact he has to be fully enraged, tht's where most of his showings come from after all, A calm Hulk is pretty mediocre in the context of his Comicbook peers....

It's quite easy to impress when you have a licence to go absolutely Beserk at the drop of a hat.








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Olympian




> ...although Marvels Hercules was shown to not have actually performed them all on his own...

Under Perez, DCU Heracles claimed he never performed his bigger feats. Not only this, but DC has ever showed him doing any of them in the first place under any storytelling material, like flashbacks.

Obviously, since you dont consider *any* material revelant for Marvel Hercules, i want to know why you are giving such credit for the DCU Hercules, when what we have of him, and his past exploits, is actually considerable less information than his Marvel counterpart.

Thats strike one. Lets look at strike two:

Marvel Hercules has done them all as per the continuity in his universe. The only one that has been a contention for doubt, going back and forth over the decades of publication has been the stables feat. Under Marvel current continuity (and we all know another writer will retcon it again) this particular labour marks his first meeting ever, bewteen Hercules and Gilgamesh.

Lets end wih strike three, for the "oh he had assist sometimes" cryout:

The whole notion that because Athena and Hermes walked around and assisted him directly in something like 3 of the 10/12 labours, is nothing but pure bias, given how Wonder Woman rarely sports a single high feat *withou* direct assist from her teammates.

Again, i want to know, why you attack one character that had some assist, but are appearantly fine with Wonder Woman getting help, in nearly every major feat.

In conclusion, and this is no novelty in reality, both Myth and Marvel Hercules are stronger than both Wonder Woman and DCU Heracles.

>
> > > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> > >
> > > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> > >
> >
> > Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
> >
> > >
> > > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > > >



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.2 on Windows XP
Olympian




> > > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> > >
> > > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> > >
> >
> > Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
> >
> > >
> > > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > > >



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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



> I believe that Superman is necessarily stronger than either Thor or Wonder Woman. If Thor was equally strong, then having a weapon like a hammer would easily make him the favorite, especially if the hammer is magical. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being given a baseball bat to use against you. Who do you think is going to win every time? In order to make it an even battle, Superman would really HAVE to have an edge in strength. Otherwise, it shouldn't be much of a contest.
>
> Ditto with Wonder Woman. J states that Wonder Woman is about as strong as Superman, but far more skilled. If that's the case, Superman should NOT be the top dog in DC - Wonder Woman should. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being trained in dozens of martial arts for his entire life and given body armor and a whip. The untrained version of you couldn't possibly be considered more powerful.
>
> So I hold that Superman is the strongest among the DC heroes, and Hulk is the strongest among the Marvel heroes because it's the only way they would be able to stay competitive against some of the other characters with more gear or special abilities.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> > > >
> > > > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > > > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> > > >
> > > > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> > > >

> > >
> > > Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.
> >
> > Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.
> >




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
The Last Word




> > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
>
> I agree with the above. I do think the strength levels are relatively equal.
>
> It seems that Kurt Busiek and George Perez meant to explain WHY DC characters are a bit stronger (and faster) by stating that the DC Earth is larger... however any difference in strength between the peers (Thor, Herc, WW, Supes) is probably negligible and, IMO, not very evident in a fight AT ALL.

I concur.

>
> > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time.
>
> *IF* she ever fought him with the intent to put him down then maybe we would see that. As it stands there has never been a confrontation between the 2 premier DC heroes where Diana set out to demolish Superman. In both of their major fights her intent was to save him while doing her best to survive and not harm him.

But here's my point -- if that's true, then doesn't that render DC's stated position that Supes is no. 1, which you've repeatedly referenced, false?

>
> > Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point.
>
> But it doesn't miss the point. If 2 speedsters are racing and one is giving his all and the other is not then how can you properly determine which is faster??
>
> > That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him
>
> Has he ever bested her? In both of their fights his mission was to kill her. He failed. In both of their fights her mission was to free him and she succeeded. That is a win.

Then that means that DC editorials are false. Frankly, I don't think they mean anything. But you can't use them in support of the argument that she's his physical equal, when if she was his physical equal she'd clobber him, thus rendering DC's official opinion regarding their relative status false.

>
> > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
>
> Which doesn't make any sense because CM & BA share the same source of speed as Diana. It also doesn't make sense because they lack all of her other abilities (truth, illusions, empathy, telepathy, astral projection/teleportation, enhanced senses).

First, that's not true, as Trials of Shazam has not been retconned. Second, and I am unsure about this, does the Captain Marvel power make the bearer as strong as Hercules, or does it imbue the bearer with the strength of Hercules? These are not the same thing. For example, Captain Marvel was turned inside out by a ray blast, but the durability of Achilles restored him. That doesn't mean that Achilles would react to the blast exactly the same way, however. I am, however, not sure as to what the post-crisis evidence states regarding this point. Third, I don't think there's any evidence countering the amplification of CM's abilities by the power of Zeus. Indeed, if CM had the power of Zeus in its literal form, he'd have possessed all of Zeus's abilities, not just lightning.

>
> As far as Thor goes JLA/Avengers showed Diana to be stronger than Wonder Man who in turn is ALMOST as strong as Thor. Logic then dictates that Diana and Thor are at least equals in strength.
>

Not quite. First, armwresting isn't necessarily based on strength, although strength is a component. Second, WW didn't beat Thor -- you can't necessarily conclude that she's as strong as Thor, who's stronger than WM, just because she was stronger than WM.

I think the differences are small, but I think they're tangible.


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Olympian




>
> > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
>
> Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.

Busiek certainly didnt wrote them like that.

They exchanged punches without an advantage either way. But i guess if you take Kal`s long range attacks, he would also fared worse.

> Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
>
> ...And Now back to work. \:\)

What about when she also didnt break his hold? No superiority there, i guess?

Every major battle ended up tied. Something so simple, and yet, people overlook it like its a Chuck Austen book..:)



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.2 on Windows XP
Olympian




> > Superman is as strong as Captain Marvel who gets his strength from Hercules. Unless she is stronger than either of them then this is just hyperbole and she is at best as strong as Hercules if not weaker.
>
> Here is your mistake: Superman is STRONGER than Captain Marvel.
>
> FYI she herself has stated she is stronger than Hercules in continuity...
>
> Check the scan, direct from DC's mouth:

Oh wow.

You dont accept entire -on panel- pages of Marvel Hercules feats and its revelance, but you pull out a letters page to prove x is stronger than y?

In hat case, i guess Juggernaut *is* stronger than Hulk, going a letters page as well..weird how in the actual comic material we never saw that.

This type of debate is born of pure frustation.


>
>
>



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.2 on Windows XP
The Last Word




> ...although Marvels Hercules was shown to not have actually performed them all on his own...

That's a strawman argument. You KNOW that you can't measure those items against each other.

Incidentally, I don't believe that Herc was holding up the actual heavens as recently demonstrated in his book. I think instead that the gods have their own set of mythological feats that are peculiar to them, but which are not actually true. For example, I don't believe that the actuak sky is shaped out of Ymir's skull as described in Thor, but I think that Asgard has a portion/dimension/aspect of it where that is true. Similarly, I think Hercules/Atlas held up what the Olympians called the heavens, never mind that it was not actually the entire sky. That's silly.

>
> > > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> > >
> > > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> > >
> >
> > Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
> >
> > >
> > > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > > >
> > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > > >



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Olympian




> k the scan, direct from DC's mouth:
> > >
> > Has any of this ever actually been shown in the comics because a company can often say one thing, but then all the writers portray it differently. When has Superman ever been shown to be stronger than Captain Marvel. As far as I am aware all of their battles/feats are comparable and have them being equal.
>
> Judging by the fights Captain Marvel lost twice.

You still have yet to prove such thing to the board.

>
> Until one character ATTEMPTS to perform a feat and fails and another character succeeds then it's hard to gauge anything that way...
>
> What we are left with is company verdict. Fights, feats and the like vary by writer, editor & even artist. The bottom line, however, is determined by the company who owns said characters.

How convineant.

Lets all do like J, and burn our comics.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.2 on Windows XP
Olympian




> > ...although Marvels Hercules was shown to not have actually performed them all on his own...
>
> That's a strawman argument. You KNOW that you can't measure those items against each other.
>
> Incidentally, I don't believe that Herc was holding up the actual heavens as recently demonstrated in his book. I think instead that the gods have their own set of mythological feats that are peculiar to them, but which are not actually true. For example, I don't believe that the actuak sky is shaped out of Ymir's skull as described in Thor, but I think that Asgard has a portion/dimension/aspect of it where that is true. Similarly, I think Hercules/Atlas held up what the Olympians called the heavens, never mind that it was not actually the entire sky. That's silly.

In that case, Marvel hercules got more than one silly feat above DCU Herc, who claimed to WW, he never did any of them.

Im curious to find out wich kind of info led J, claim, what he just claimed. Maybe some hidden years publication for the DC version of the character that i am not aware.

>
> >
> > > > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> > > >
> > > > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > > > >



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.2 on Windows XP
Olympian




>
> > >
> > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> > >
> > > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> > >
> > > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> > >

> >
> > Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.
>
> Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.

Like Kal needed his HV to stop Thor.

>



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.2 on Windows XP
The Last Word




> I believe that Superman is necessarily stronger than either Thor or Wonder Woman. If Thor was equally strong, then having a weapon like a hammer would easily make him the favorite, especially if the hammer is magical. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being given a baseball bat to use against you. Who do you think is going to win every time? In order to make it an even battle, Superman would really HAVE to have an edge in strength. Otherwise, it shouldn't be much of a contest.

But Thor hits as hard as his hammer does, as demonstrated. The Hulk has never appeared to be more fazed by a blow from Thor's hammer than from Thor's fist. Indeed, if Thor's hammer, as a bludgeoning tool, was more effective than his fist, then Thor would literally kill every top- tier, e.g., Hulk, Hyperion, Gladiator, he fought.

Thor's hammer is only an advantage when used for its more exotic properties. He didn't use them during his fight with Supes, and in fact ignored the ability to deflect Supes' heat vision.

>
> Ditto with Wonder Woman. J states that Wonder Woman is about as strong as Superman, but far more skilled. If that's the case, Superman should NOT be the top dog in DC - Wonder Woman should. Picture you vs. a clone of you, with your clone being trained in dozens of martial arts for his entire life and given body armor and a whip. The untrained version of you couldn't possibly be considered more powerful.

I agree with this.

>
> So I hold that Superman is the strongest among the DC heroes, and Hulk is the strongest among the Marvel heroes because it's the only way they would be able to stay competitive against some of the other characters with more gear or special abilities.

Yet we know that Thor has stalemated Hulk strength-wise.

>
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> > > >
> > > > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > > > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> > > >
> > > > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> > > >

> > >
> > > Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.
> >
> > Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.
> >




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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



> > Like Kal needed his HV to stop Thor.
>
> >

Fact is,he did unload the HV into Thor though,then gave him a KOing punch.Before that,both were taking each other's blows evenly.



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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



> >
> > > >
> > > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc.
> > > >
> > > > Can I just point out that actually Thor w/hammer is as 'strong' as Superman, take that hammer out of the JLAvengers fight and i think he'd have lasted all of two minutes.
> > > > Ditto Wonder Woman was seen to be stronger/superior to Herc, he ends up on the floor unable to break her grip - it's not as if he put himself there now is it...
> > > >
> > > > ...And Now back to work. \:\)
> > > >

> > >
> > > Except that Thor has repeatedly eschewed his hammer during battle with the Hulk, and come out no worse the wear for it. Indeed, if I recall correctly, he didn't use his hammer to any effect during his battle with Supes, and still almost beat him.
> >
> > Well considering from what we saw his very first (attempted) blow against superman was with the Hammer I must disagree with you. Like wise Seeing Superman sent hurtling thru the Forest like a rocket & trailed by lightning FX, a hammer spinning Thor in hot pursuit, is indicative of major Hammer usage. To Cap it all his final move is to put everything into one hoped for finishing blow from a charged mjolnir... Seems like he definitly needed the Hammer in this fight, To me anyway.
>
> Like Kal needed his HV to stop Thor.
>
> >


I really don't agree he needed it but I'll leave it there because it would start yet another sub thread.

I also see where you want to go but the idea remains: Thor hitting power with the hammer is no greater than hulk or superman who are weaponless so it stands to reason he doesn't pack as much without it.



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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008







Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.16 on Windows XP
Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



>
> > > Like Kal needed his HV to stop Thor.
> >
> > >

>
> Fact is,he did unload the HV into Thor though,then gave him a KOing punch.Before that,both were taking each other's blows evenly.
>

a man with a hammer was trading blow equally with one without a hammer...



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