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Author
JesusFan');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
"Casually" takes out Superman....

Why is he SO far up on the Board...

Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

Thoughts?




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.7 on Linux
Spider-Hulk





    Quote:
    SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

    Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
    "Casually" takes out Superman....

    Why is he SO far up on the Board...

    Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

    Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

    Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

    Thoughts?


SS is very versatile though and the power cosmic offers him a lot of options in a battle.

Most people he could literally just suck the energy out of them and they fall down. Simple as that. His cosmic blasts are nothing to sniff at either. Essentially the guy has a fraction of the power that Galactus commands, thats some serious mojo.

In terms of casually taking people out, no he is not going to casually take out the likes of Superman. SS may be indestructible but he can still feel pain and can be hurt.

While others can maybe enlighten better as to his potential but he can basically manipulate matter and energy pretty effectively, fire energy blasts, heck, the guy can even control gravity. But to do those things he has to concentrate he can't just do them on whims. Oh... and I almost forgot he has cosmic awareness and can sense things light years away from himself like he's looking at it with his own eyes.

Superman or Thor would probably kick his ass in a fight though. However, if SS got the chance to look at Superman's make up, a blast of red sun energy would soon put the man of steel down.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.7 on Windows XP
MacGruder





    Quote:
    SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

    Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
    "Casually" takes out Superman....

    Why is he SO far up on the Board...

    Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

    Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

    Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

    Thoughts?



Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Nucleon





    Quote:
    Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan.



... Just won't work. The Lanterns, in the end, are glorified telekynesists, whereas the Surfer has the Power Cosmic. The Lanterns have regular forms, while the Surfer's is superpowered at his base. Maybe they match him in power magnitude, but certainly not in scope. The only thing they have in common is that both cruise spaceways.

Take the Parasite, merge it with Firestorm, Dr Fate, plus one of DC's countless flying bricks (they're all more or less the same), and that construct would be closer to what the Surfer would be in DC- but still inferior, IMHO.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Nucleon





    Quote:
    Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?


The Surfer has an unrivalled power scope. In terms of power magnitude, he is merely average to high. This the exact opposite of SBP, or the Sentry, who are basically one-string instruments ("projectiles"), but with ridiculous magnitude.

He does have his limits. They are exposed when opposing other Cosmic, or otherwise Immortal powersets, which in many instances he proved less capable of manipulating, and thus was forced tu use classical (but still relatively potent) attacks like Cosmic blasts.
 
He is of the Cosmic domain, but does not rules it, like a Galactus, or Celestials. A true Cosmic Herald in every meaning of the word, the Surfer however is not the top one, powerwise. Other Galactus Heralds may be reasoneably more powerful, in magnitude. Maybe the Surfer is more experienced, or imaginative, thought.


    Quote:
    Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...


Thor gives him more than a hard fight; his hammer negates or deflect about any special effect the Surfer throws at him. The fight then proceeds in a classical manner, where Thor realistically gains the upper hand due to sheer skill. This is not me; it is printed continuity.

Superman, however, is going down - relatively fast, unless a plot device is introduced. Builts like his are a previsible legion in any universe (often without the glaring weaknesses), while the Surfer's power base is unparalleled in DCU.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Maestro






    Quote:

      Quote:
      SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

      Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
      "Casually" takes out Superman....

      Why is he SO far up on the Board...

      Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

      Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

      Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

      Thoughts?



    Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


... whole other level.

I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.











Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.7 on Windows Vista
bd2999




SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...

I think I and others have said that an all out Surfer holding nothing back has the potential chance to beat SBP but its still favoring Prime, he just has all the tools it would take. Dr. Manhattan many think he would have the power to fight him toe to toe but could not win because John is just to much. He cannot fall.
"Casually" takes out Superman....

whoever says that has no idea what they are talking about. I would favor Surfer because he is the master at creating energies and recognizing them so he could use Supermans weaknesses against him but that is not an auto win, just advantage. Superman can beat Surfer. Although it makes since that he is the underdog against a foe overall as powerful as Surfer.

Why is he SO far up on the Board...

Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

Yup, he was not able to do much against two Skyfather beings, so? And the Thor things are rough to go on. Thor needs Mjolnir to beat him. Without it he would be crushed.

Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

Who is saying he is all these things? He is top tier of top tier herald beings. I dont recall thinking he was ever skyfather or beyond.

Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

Without question. It would not be easy for anyone, especially when top tiers fight. Surfer would have a clear edge on Superman because of the nature of his powers and Sups weaknesses, Thor has an edge on Surfer becasue he has a weapon to stop ep.

Thoughts?




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MacGruder





    Quote:


      Quote:

        Quote:
        SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

        Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
        "Casually" takes out Superman....

        Why is he SO far up on the Board...

        Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

        Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

        Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

        Thoughts?



      Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


    ... whole other level.

    I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


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atrimus');


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,472



    Quote:

      Quote:


        Quote:

          Quote:
          SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

          Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
          "Casually" takes out Superman....

          Why is he SO far up on the Board...

          Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

          Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

          Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

          Thoughts?



        Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


      ... whole other level.

      I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










    That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


its still a pretty significant feat, and one i don't see Hal equalling (even remotely).



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 4.0 on Windows XP
MacGruder





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan.



    ... Just won't work. The Lanterns, in the end, are glorified telekynesists, whereas the Surfer has the Power Cosmic. The Lanterns have regular forms, while the Surfer's is superpowered at his base. Maybe they match him in power magnitude, but certainly not in scope. The only thing they have in common is that both cruise spaceways.

    Take the Parasite, merge it with Firestorm, Dr Fate, plus one of DC's countless flying bricks (they're all more or less the same), and that construct would be closer to what the Surfer would be in DC- but still inferior, IMHO.

Gotta disagree with the GL assessment.  Their power scope is unlimited as well.  When Hal Jordan entered the central power battery and stole its power, he had the magnitude to do what is within a GL's scope.  Before, he was only able to remake Coast City.  After becoming Parallax, he remade the universe.  This means he also created all the natural laws, matter, and forces within.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
MacGruder





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan.



      ... Just won't work. The Lanterns, in the end, are glorified telekynesists, whereas the Surfer has the Power Cosmic. The Lanterns have regular forms, while the Surfer's is superpowered at his base. Maybe they match him in power magnitude, but certainly not in scope. The only thing they have in common is that both cruise spaceways.

      Take the Parasite, merge it with Firestorm, Dr Fate, plus one of DC's countless flying bricks (they're all more or less the same), and that construct would be closer to what the Surfer would be in DC- but still inferior, IMHO.

    Gotta disagree with the GL assessment.  Their power scope is unlimited as well.  When Hal Jordan entered the central power battery and stole its power, he had the magnitude to do what is within a GL's scope.  Before, he was only able to remake Coast City.  After becoming Parallax, he remade the universe.  This means he also created all the natural laws, matter, and forces within.

 
More things a GL ring can do....


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
MacGruder





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:


          Quote:

            Quote:
            SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

            Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
            "Casually" takes out Superman....

            Why is he SO far up on the Board...

            Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

            Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

            Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

            Thoughts?



          Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


        ... whole other level.

        I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










      That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


    its still a pretty significant feat, and one i don't see Hal equalling (even remotely).



Yeah, but this is not your every day Surfer. Not quite sure how big that black hole was, but it looked like it engulfed the planet? This is only well written if you're a Surfer fanboy. Otherwise, it's plain silly. To compare, though, Hal has frozen time across an entire solar system. Jon Stewart recreated one. Don't know how you'd stack these feats against what Surfer did, but they're uber as well!


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
dave





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan.



        ... Just won't work. The Lanterns, in the end, are glorified telekynesists, whereas the Surfer has the Power Cosmic. The Lanterns have regular forms, while the Surfer's is superpowered at his base. Maybe they match him in power magnitude, but certainly not in scope. The only thing they have in common is that both cruise spaceways.

        Take the Parasite, merge it with Firestorm, Dr Fate, plus one of DC's countless flying bricks (they're all more or less the same), and that construct would be closer to what the Surfer would be in DC- but still inferior, IMHO.

      Gotta disagree with the GL assessment.  Their power scope is unlimited as well.  When Hal Jordan entered the central power battery and stole its power, he had the magnitude to do what is within a GL's scope.  Before, he was only able to remake Coast City.  After becoming Parallax, he remade the universe.  This means he also created all the natural laws, matter, and forces within.

     
    More things a GL ring can do....



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Maestro





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:


            Quote:

              Quote:
              SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

              Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
              "Casually" takes out Superman....

              Why is he SO far up on the Board...

              Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

              Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

              Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

              Thoughts?



            Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


          ... whole other level.

          I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










        That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


      its still a pretty significant feat, and one i don't see Hal equalling (even remotely).



    Yeah, but this is not your every day Surfer. Not quite sure how big that black hole was, but it looked like it engulfed the planet? This is only well written if you're a Surfer fanboy. Otherwise, it's plain silly. To compare, though, Hal has frozen time across an entire solar system. Jon Stewart recreated one. Don't know how you'd stack these feats against what Surfer did, but they're uber as well!


Going by your Hal Jordan scan, I'm not sure its correct to say that Hal actually "froze time" in that scene. It actually looks as if he simply froze the individuals fighting as well as everyone within a thousand miles of the planet. Sort of like putting them in stasis or suspended animation I suppose. Still an impressive feat but a far cry from actually freezing time across a solar system.

Secondly, John Stewart did "temporarily" create constructs mimicking a solar system but it wasn't actually the real thing. Furthermore, creating constructs of that magnitude was too much for his ring and thus he couldn't hold it for long.

Both of the above are significant "high end" Green Lantern feats to be sure but IMO they still fall well short of what Surfer did in his fight with Ravenous per the scans above.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.7 on Windows Vista
Primetime





    Quote:

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          Quote:


            Quote:

              Quote:
              SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

              Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
              "Casually" takes out Superman....

              Why is he SO far up on the Board...

              Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

              Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

              Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

              Thoughts?



            Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


          ... whole other level.

          I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










        That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


      its still a pretty significant feat, and one i don't see Hal equalling (even remotely).



    Yeah, but this is not your every day Surfer. Not quite sure how big that black hole was, but it looked like it engulfed the planet? This is only well written if you're a Surfer fanboy. Otherwise, it's plain silly. To compare, though, Hal has frozen time across an entire solar system. Jon Stewart recreated one. Don't know how you'd stack these feats against what Surfer did, but they're uber as well!


In that first scan, it doesn't say that Hal froze time. It says that Hal freezes every living being within 1000 miles of the shattered planet. I take that as him putting them all in sort of a suspended animation, but not stopping time itself. The moon is 250,000 miles from Earth, so basically Hal froze every being (not time) within relatively close proximity to the shattered planet. An impressive feat, but not the same as freezing time across an entire solar system. This, unless there is more in the comic that supports your assertion.

Likewise, it is quite unclear what Stewart does in the other two scans. Seems that he vents his frustration by briefly creating constructs of three destroyed planets or celestial bodies that dissipate once he has exceeded his exertion level. Still far from literally creating a solar system.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.7 on Windows XP
MacGruder





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:


              Quote:

                Quote:
                SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

                Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
                "Casually" takes out Superman....

                Why is he SO far up on the Board...

                Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

                Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

                Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

                Thoughts?



              Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


            ... whole other level.

            I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










          That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


        its still a pretty significant feat, and one i don't see Hal equalling (even remotely).



      Yeah, but this is not your every day Surfer. Not quite sure how big that black hole was, but it looked like it engulfed the planet? This is only well written if you're a Surfer fanboy. Otherwise, it's plain silly. To compare, though, Hal has frozen time across an entire solar system. Jon Stewart recreated one. Don't know how you'd stack these feats against what Surfer did, but they're uber as well!


    In that first scan, it doesn't say that Hal froze time. It says that Hal freezes every living being within 1000 miles of the shattered planet. I take that as him putting them all in sort of a suspended animation, but not stopping time itself. The moon is 250,000 miles from Earth, so basically Hal froze every being (not time) within relatively close proximity to the shattered planet. An impressive feat, but not the same as freezing time across an entire solar system. This, unless there is more in the comic that supports your assertion.

    Likewise, it is quite unclear what Stewart does in the other two scans. Seems that he vents his frustration by briefly creating constructs of three destroyed planets or celestial bodies that dissipate once he has exceeded his exertion level. Still far from literally creating a solar system.



Well, whatever Hal did, the effects were felt by the creatures of the "Berliotz System," which has 14 planets.

http://www.dcuguide.com/glcorps/profile.php?name=wagnorians


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Would be Watcher ');


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



...they are plot device on their own with absolutely next to no limit to what they can achieve. Sure not all showings show that but it's the same for all characters. As usual if people go for one character best showing they HAVE to do the same for the other characters... and GL's have frightingly powerful showings to be sure. For me a top GL like Hal is a excellent and even match for surfer. The best herald vs the best GL. Both with ubber versatility and extra ordinary intensity. The only down side for Hal is he has to end the fight before 24h has elapsed. Otherwise it would be an incredible fight.



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
dave





    Quote:

    ...they are plot device on their own with absolutely next to no limit to what they can achieve. Sure not all showings show that but it's the same for all characters. As usual if people go for one character best showing they HAVE to do the same for the other characters... and GL's have frightingly powerful showings to be sure. For me a top GL like Hal is a excellent and even match for surfer. The best herald vs the best GL. Both with ubber versatility and extra ordinary intensity. The only down side for Hal is he has to end the fight before 24h has elapsed. Otherwise it would be an incredible fight.

 
I think GLs are a lot like Flash. They have shown such incredible power that some of their losses make absolutely no sense. They seem like low level telekinetics at times and at others they are should be the most powerful characters in comics.


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Nucleon




... This machisimo attitude to artificially show up their protégés way beyond their conceptual potential, or beyond rationality itself. It reeks of lack of confidence.
 
If the Flash was portaited as he is sometimes shown, he would clear Earth of all criminality twice a day. The Universe, if Superman is considered instead. If the Lantern's rings really were about anything the ring bearers imagine, I would say the legion of them that took on SBP were some dull asses indeed.
 
And yet, when you look at their sources, they are as humble as a ring anybody can use, a displaced alien, and a guy doused in chemicals.
 
I thought DC was decided to make sense after COIE, but for some times now... anyway. I can't really say that Marvel's any better, neither.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Primetime





    Quote:

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            Quote:

              Quote:


                Quote:

                  Quote:
                  SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

                  Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
                  "Casually" takes out Superman....

                  Why is he SO far up on the Board...

                  Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

                  Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

                  Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

                  Thoughts?



                Yeah, I know.... People always say how Surfer is versatile this, versatile that... Green Lanterns are just as versatile but don't get any love. Surfer's cool, but I doubt he's any more special than Hal Jordan. And Hal aint takin' Prime or Thanos down.


              ... whole other level.

              I'll consider a Green Lantern "special" the next time I see one create a black hole as a mere byproduct of their energy discharge during a fight.










            That's an awesome feat, but to classify it as a by-product of a fight? He purposely created it as a means of escape.


          its still a pretty significant feat, and one i don't see Hal equalling (even remotely).



        Yeah, but this is not your every day Surfer. Not quite sure how big that black hole was, but it looked like it engulfed the planet? This is only well written if you're a Surfer fanboy. Otherwise, it's plain silly. To compare, though, Hal has frozen time across an entire solar system. Jon Stewart recreated one. Don't know how you'd stack these feats against what Surfer did, but they're uber as well!


      In that first scan, it doesn't say that Hal froze time. It says that Hal freezes every living being within 1000 miles of the shattered planet. I take that as him putting them all in sort of a suspended animation, but not stopping time itself. The moon is 250,000 miles from Earth, so basically Hal froze every being (not time) within relatively close proximity to the shattered planet. An impressive feat, but not the same as freezing time across an entire solar system. This, unless there is more in the comic that supports your assertion.

      Likewise, it is quite unclear what Stewart does in the other two scans. Seems that he vents his frustration by briefly creating constructs of three destroyed planets or celestial bodies that dissipate once he has exceeded his exertion level. Still far from literally creating a solar system.



    Well, whatever Hal did, the effects were felt by the creatures of the "Berliotz System," which has 14 planets.

    http://www.dcuguide.com/glcorps/profile.php?name=wagnorians


Actually, the effects were felt by "the spectators of the Berliotz system". In other words, all those in the system who were present at the opera or within 1000 miles of the broken planet.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.7 on Windows XP
Nucleon




... When two absolute meet, which absolute triumph?
 
It is said in the last post's scan that the ring can do anything. Anything. Yet, what did these numerous fellows did around SBP with their absolute power? If they failed, can their powers really be qualified as absolute?
 
The GLs, like much, much people in DC, don't live up to their hype. When reading a DC story about these, a child's soul is required.


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RodimusPrime');


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,200


... you go on and on about concepts, and how we have to look at the concept of the character... and I've counter-argued that the continuity of the character is just as important as the concept, if not moreso.  Well, in the case of Superboy Prime, the CONCEPT and the CONTINUITY of the character both point to one thing, he's just not stopped that easy.
You like to point out all the stuff that Surfer can do.  Well, the GLs are an army of guys that can do the exact same thing... Surfer is more powerful than most of them, if not all, as they are limited by their will (which is why some are more powerful and capable than others), but there is the rare exception like Hal.  But even if Surfer is more powerful than every single one of them, there is no way, absolutely NO WAY, that he would tear through them like Prime did.  Let alone taking on both Corps, all of Earth's heros, AND the Gaurdians (more powerful than any of Galactus's heralds.)
And your point on absolutes... every time you are involved in a post with Surfer as a topic, you present him and his power as an absolute, and just look the other way when Surfer has been shown to lose.  Or you go on about what he CAN do, instead of how he actually operates in a comic.  Yet, the GLs, who have the very same potential as Surfer, fail to stop a character that has been specifically utilized to BE unstoppable (resisting universe destroying blasts, seemingly unkillable, seemingly unbeatable), and you just insult DCs writing.
*GASP* it's possible for a DC character to be as powerful and capable as a Marvel character, even more powerful in some cases.


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RodimusPrime');


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,200



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      Quote:

      ...they are plot device on their own with absolutely next to no limit to what they can achieve. Sure not all showings show that but it's the same for all characters. As usual if people go for one character best showing they HAVE to do the same for the other characters... and GL's have frightingly powerful showings to be sure. For me a top GL like Hal is a excellent and even match for surfer. The best herald vs the best GL. Both with ubber versatility and extra ordinary intensity. The only down side for Hal is he has to end the fight before 24h has elapsed. Otherwise it would be an incredible fight.

     
    I think GLs are a lot like Flash. They have shown such incredible power that some of their losses make absolutely no sense. They seem like low level telekinetics at times and at others they are should be the most powerful characters in comics.

 
I think that the Green Lantern power itself IS one of the greatest in all of comics.  But how much of that power any one Green Lantern can utilize is still based on the willpower of the wearer... and they may have good days and bad.  Anybody who has attempted to quit smoking (be they successful or not) knows that your willpower is not constant.  Sometimes you've got it, sometimes you don't.
Sure, the GLs go through rigorous training to hone their willpower into a usable weapon, and are much stronger willed than the rest of us, but they ARE still capable of having a bad day.


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Magnus





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      SS seems to be getting a "whole lot of love" on the Battle Board recently...

      Able to fight prime evenly, ditto Dr manhattan...
      "Casually" takes out Superman....

      Why is he SO far up on the Board...

      Fought Tyrant, NO effect, Ditto Odin, don't think EVER managed to defeat Thor either...

      Isn't he just Top Herald, right there with Sentry as originally configured, and not Skyfather, much less Cubes, Celestials, Imps?

      Unless SS Unload early on... Still see likes of Thor/Supes giving him hard fights...

      Thoughts?


    It seems that most people have forgotten that the Surfer can also rearrange molecular structures of beings. Or anything for that matter. How do you defend that?

    SS is very versatile though and the power cosmic offers him a lot of options in a battle.

    Most people he could literally just suck the energy out of them and they fall down. Simple as that. His cosmic blasts are nothing to sniff at either. Essentially the guy has a fraction of the power that Galactus commands, thats some serious mojo.

    In terms of casually taking people out, no he is not going to casually take out the likes of Superman. SS may be indestructible but he can still feel pain and can be hurt.

    While others can maybe enlighten better as to his potential but he can basically manipulate matter and energy pretty effectively, fire energy blasts, heck, the guy can even control gravity. But to do those things he has to concentrate he can't just do them on whims. Oh... and I almost forgot he has cosmic awareness and can sense things light years away from himself like he's looking at it with his own eyes.

    Superman or Thor would probably kick his ass in a fight though. However, if SS got the chance to look at Superman's make up, a blast of red sun energy would soon put the man of steel down.


I seems that most people have forgotten that the Surfer can rearrange molecular structures of objects and beings. How do you defend against that? He could easily turn just about anyone to glass if he so wished.


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Nucleon





    Quote:
    ... you go on and on about concepts, and how we have to look at the concept of the character... and I've counter-argued that the continuity of the character is just as important as the concept, if not moreso. 


And I disagreed, reserving myself the right to ignore either ridiculously high/low showings pwerwise. I agree that continuity is important on a historical aspect, but if we are to gauge powers we should do like the scenarists themselves do and look at concepts.


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    Well, in the case of Superboy Prime, the CONCEPT and the CONTINUITY of the character both point to one thing, he's just not stopped that easy.

    (...) Yet, the GLs, who have the very same potential as Surfer, fail to stop a character that has been specifically utilized to BE unstoppable (resisting universe destroying blasts, seemingly unkillable, seemingly unbeatable), and you just insult DCs writing.


It reminds me of WWH; All the guy has is brutal, undeniable physical superiority yet all who opposed them had nothing to offer but brute strenght; Gone, the mentalists, the micro-surgeons, the power-drainers, the time-stoppers, all for the sakes of fly-byes and energy blasts. How fecking convenient.

You've got these GLs who are supposed to be able to do anything including read minds and travel throught time yet no one can find better than to throw useless energy blasts and get slaughtered wholesale.

Comics are devoluting, for crying out loud. Marvel gets as stupid as DC in that sector.


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    You like to point out all the stuff that Surfer can do.  Well, the GLs are an army of guys that can do the exact same thing... Surfer is more powerful than most of them, if not all, as they are limited by their will (which is why some are more powerful and capable than others), but there is the rare exception like Hal.
 

Saying that the GLs can substitute the Surfer is like saying that Cap America can substitute Superman; The Surfer's got a superpowered form; He's got cosmic awareness; he's got thousands of years of experience. More importantly, is the source of his own power.


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    And your point on absolutes... every time you are involved in a post with Surfer as a topic, you present him and his power as an absolute, and just look the other way when Surfer has been shown to lose. Or you go on about what he CAN do, instead of how he actually operates in a comic.


I never said the Surfer had any absolute; I agree when he loses to Thor or when he looks ordinary facing Terrax; I can sleep well even if I believe that he can be beaten. He has his limits and I recognize them. And no, I'm not too much into his planet-blowing phase actually. You must confuse me with somebody else.
 
Furthermore; The very nature of the Surfer's power makes that his title is about innovation, or trying to sort out the problem by "thinking out of the box". Thus, we may have a harder case defining what exactly is a Surfer's "standard" power.



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    *GASP* it's possible for a DC character to be as powerful and capable as a Marvel character, even more powerful in some cases.


I'll go further and advance that it is also possible for a Marvel character to be written with the same naivité than that of a DC one.


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Would be Watcher ');


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




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    ... This machisimo attitude to artificially show up their protégés way beyond their conceptual potential, or beyond rationality itself. It reeks of lack of confidence.
     
    If the Flash was portaited as he is sometimes shown, he would clear Earth of all criminality twice a day. The Universe, if Superman is considered instead. If the Lantern's rings really were about anything the ring bearers imagine, I would say the legion of them that took on SBP were some dull asses indeed.
     
    And yet, when you look at their sources, they are as humble as a ring anybody can use, a displaced alien, and a guy doused in chemicals.
     
    I thought DC was decided to make sense after COIE, but for some times now... anyway. I can't really say that Marvel's any better, neither.

 
... if that's possible. GL or surfer can do many tricks but what they lack against SBP grade characters is the power to back those trick. Not that they don't have loads of them already. They do but the other guy has so much more than even they can imagine that they are outgunned. Whatever you want to do to such a foe will have to demand an enormous eneregy toll to have any effect while him doing the usual might get you one shotted.
 
When lanterns were one shotted by Prime you weren't suppose to think they were weak. You were supposed to realise the brat was THAT dangerous. Of course versatility gives you more handles to tackle a problem and thats a great plus. But you still get limited by the energy you can handle to fuel those tricks... lanterns can do anything up to what the ring or their willpower can handle. Same for surfer and the power cosmic. He doesn't have Galactus energy output and is still opposable by guys like thor or Sentry and just by that fact you understand that he doesn't have infinite power either but rather a incredibly hight level. Still someone with a higher scope but less versatility would pose a very tangible threat for him or any lanterns.
 
I think there is a snobish smell and a tad of bitterness in the taste to people who over-glorify versatility. It's not because you can transmute things that they are equally easy to transmute. Characters with higher scope than you might get too hard plain and simple. Same for blasting, punching, disintegrating, statis rays, force constructs or fields etc. In comics nearly everything is opposable and the mightiest power win... It's often better to have fewer more powerful tricks than plenty less so. Specially if some tricks are somewhat redundant on what they aim to do like compromising body integrity. The best advantages a more versatile character has is usually provided for BFR or indirect attacks that avoid having to met impossible resistance. Of course BFR is easier on character with fewer movement options and lesser durability. Anyway, this is all getting old and probably won't change a thing but I had to try one last time before letting go.



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MacGruder





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    ... When two absolute meet, which absolute triumph?
     
    It is said in the last post's scan that the ring can do anything. Anything. Yet, what did these numerous fellows did around SBP with their absolute power? If they failed, can their powers really be qualified as absolute?
     
    The GLs, like much, much people in DC, don't live up to their hype. When reading a DC story about these, a child's soul is required.

Well, I think Surfer's record isn't that much better than a GL's.  He gets dismissed by Thanos like it's school in the summer time.  But Surfer isn't the only one whose qualifications don't match his showings.  It can be said for just about any character, but Surfer seems to get special treatment because of his coolness factor.  Same with Galactus.  Flash gets tagged all the time, this should not be possible - ever.  Superman struggles with slow, muscle-beefed villains like Mongul and gets tagged by human-level speed.  Batman kicks Darkseid's jaw and makes it friggin' bleed because Batman is cool.  As far as I'm concerned, all characters suffer from being poorly written.  But when the universe has millions of characters with the potential to save or destroy it, characters will have to job.  Bottom line is that Surfer's cool.  But he's nothing more special than any other top tier hero who suffers from the same poor writing.


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MacGruder





    Quote:
    You like to point out all the stuff that Surfer can do.  Well, the GLs are an army of guys that can do the exact same thing... Surfer is more powerful than most of them, if not all, as they are limited by their will (which is why some are more powerful and capable than others), but there is the rare exception like Hal.
 

Saying that the GLs can substitute the Surfer is like saying that Cap America can substitute Superman; The Surfer's got a superpowered form; He's got cosmic awareness; he's got thousands of years of experience. More importantly, is the source of his own power.


    Quote:
    And your point on absolutes... every time you are involved in a post with Surfer as a topic, you present him and his power as an absolute, and just look the other way when Surfer has been shown to lose. Or you go on about what he CAN do, instead of how he actually operates in a comic.


Captain America is to Superman as a GL is to Surfer? Now that's some serious bias..... Captain America has no similar powers and doesn't offer any comparable power, yet it's clear that the Surfer Factor is in operation, since a "well written Norrin" dwarfs a GL in power and is in a league of his own.


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Would be Watcher ');


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:

      Quote:
      You like to point out all the stuff that Surfer can do.  Well, the GLs are an army of guys that can do the exact same thing... Surfer is more powerful than most of them, if not all, as they are limited by their will (which is why some are more powerful and capable than others), but there is the rare exception like Hal.
     

    Saying that the GLs can substitute the Surfer is like saying that Cap America can substitute Superman; The Surfer's got a superpowered form; He's got cosmic awareness; he's got thousands of years of experience. More importantly, is the source of his own power.


      Quote:
      And your point on absolutes... every time you are involved in a post with Surfer as a topic, you present him and his power as an absolute, and just look the other way when Surfer has been shown to lose. Or you go on about what he CAN do, instead of how he actually operates in a comic.


    Captain America is to Superman as a GL is to Surfer? Now that's some serious bias..... Captain America has no similar powers and doesn't offer any comparable power, yet it's clear that the Surfer Factor is in operation, since a "well written Norrin" dwarfs a GL in power and is in a league of his own.


I agree, that comparison was laughably waaaaaay off and biased. I'm straining to think of something GL's haven't been able to pull out of their ring that Norrin has and I just can't see it. And their power intensity is their willpower... that alone is scary and in some case, like Hal, it's downright ubber. Unless you have Hal on his worst day and norrin written at his best, and even then, I can't begin to see his captain america comparison making any sense. At this point it can't even be explained by the "cool" factor that shine over surfer and make Galactus and other herald look bad in comparison.

IMO it's a huge cloud of snobfog that just won't go away... What's worst is plenty of those defending Norrin "invincibility" have the nerve to say other characters, who Norrin would obliterate with laughting ease of course, are too powerful and are ridiculous in concept... because Galactus as powerful has he's supposed to be has a need for ever betraying heralds who look more adept at the PC than him to begin with... go figure.



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Nucleon





    Quote:

      Quote:
      ... When two absolute meet, which absolute triumph?
       
      It is said in the last post's scan that the ring can do anything. Anything. Yet, what did these numerous fellows did around SBP with their absolute power? If they failed, can their powers really be qualified as absolute?
       
      The GLs, like much, much people in DC, don't live up to their hype. When reading a DC story about these, a child's soul is required.

    Well, I think Surfer's record isn't that much better than a GL's.  He gets dismissed by Thanos like it's school in the summer time.  But Surfer isn't the only one whose qualifications don't match his showings.  It can be said for just about any character, but Surfer seems to get special treatment because of his coolness factor.  Same with Galactus.  Flash gets tagged all the time, this should not be possible - ever.  Superman struggles with slow, muscle-beefed villains like Mongul and gets tagged by human-level speed.  Batman kicks Darkseid's jaw and makes it friggin' bleed because Batman is cool.  As far as I'm concerned, all characters suffer from being poorly written.  But when the universe has millions of characters with the potential to save or destroy it, characters will have to job.  Bottom line is that Surfer's cool.  But he's nothing more special than any other top tier hero who suffers from the same poor writing.



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Liam Gallagher's Unibrow');


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:

    I think there is a snobish smell and a tad of bitterness in the taste to people who over-glorify versatility.


Versatility is a measure of how many different ways a character can apply their power, not the magnitude of it. The best example of this is the Kree Star Wheel. Surfer and Strange ere both trapped and helpless, with ir transmutation abilties etc meaning nothing in this scenario, whilst Hulk was the only one with the sheer *power* to break out.

Versatility does indeed make one more formiddable in combat and means the character is much better in a wider range of scenarios, but that doesn't necessarily equate to being more *powerful* than their peers.




Cheers.





Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
(work in progress)
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