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Author
JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


IM as he was in the Avengers/JLA Vrs Current WW...

Rematched, who would take it straight up, non prepping either side?


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CHAD


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


IMO Ironman should beat her because he has so many ways to beat her and he should be smart enough to know this. Also Ironman is actually a 100 ton strength guy but next to brick types this somehow gets overlooked and he often gets knocked around by these types like he is a class 40 type or so....

Ironman should win but I doubt he will.


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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



He already admitted her speed in that series plus she had Hercules on the ground helpless!

Whichever way you look at it he is totally outclassed here. She is vastly stronger, Faster snd more maneuvreable in flight, She's better combat orientated, and has a deflective trick that renders his armours prime attack method irrelevant. Iron Man works best if he's given time to adapt and the opponent has some chink in the armour he can work on to open them up to an even playing field - Wonder Woman has no particular weakness however and is an equivalent to Captain America in her uncanny ability to assess an opponent on the spot and adapt on the fly to take them down in the most efficient manner.
She's better than Iron Man in any physical encounter as the combination of sheer power and fighting technique is outside his ability to match - imagine The Mandarin x6 and you get Wonder Womans rough level of power & Ability. This is not an opponnent mere force overcome.

On the othe hand if he had Extremis it would a lot more competitive as he then has a speed component, not that he would win of a certainty but at least he has a legitimate fighting chance of being able to counter her assault to some degree and a broader base of intelligence & attack options to draw from, that's if being written up to of course....








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CHAD


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



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    He already admitted her speed in that series plus she had Hercules on the ground helpless!


Admitted what?, that she could get one shotted by a repulsor? The speed issue is tricky. Really was Supes almost flash like Speed a factor in his fight with Thor? Was Cap marvels speeed a factor in his fight with Thor? When these characters face off the whole speed advantage thing is not a factor. Why should it be a factor in this fight?


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    Whichever way you look at it he is totally outclassed here. She is vastly stronger, Faster snd more maneuvreable, better combat orientated, and has a deflective trick that renders his prime attack method irrelevant. Iron Man works best if he's given time to adapt and the opponent has some chink in the armour he can work on to open them up to an even playing filed, Wonder Woman has no particular weakness however and is an equivalent to Captain America in her ability to assess an opponent on the spot and adapt on the fly to take them down. She's better than Iron Man in any physical encounter as the combination of sheer power and fighting technique is outside his ability to match - imagine The Mandarin x6 and you get Wonder Womans rough level of power & Ability.


I dont think she is vastly stronger. IMO they are pretty evenly match here. Wonderwoman is to Supes what Ironman is top Thor in terms of strength IMO. So she is a tad stronger perhaps. Her little bracelets wont be able to deflect a wide angled repulsor. he Ironman armor has taken hits from Mjolnir and an enrage Hulk, he will have plenty of time to take here apart.T


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    If he had Extremis it would a lot more competitive as he has a speed component, not that he would win of a certainty but at least he has a legitimate fighting chance of being able to counter her assault to some degree, that's if being written up to of course.

If it were Extremis she would be toast in under a minute.


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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




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        He already admitted her speed in that series plus she had Hercules on the ground helpless!



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    Admitted what?, that she could get one shotted by a repulsor? The speed issue is tricky. Really was Supes almost flash like Speed a factor in his fight with Thor? Was Cap marvels speeed a factor in his fight with Thor? When these characters face off the whole speed advantage thing is not a factor. Why should it be a factor in this fight?

Was the JLAvengers matchup at the start of book Two over Metropolis remotely plausible or representative of any sense of reality...? No, it was not.

If you're going to try arguing her speed advantage is a non-factor then would you object if i say his sensor array is a non-factor too? You Either play these fights on a fair representation of how they both perform in their respective continuities or don't bother at all. If you read Wonder Woman her speed is one of her core powers, not some occasional bolted on ability like her empathy with Animals or Iron Mans Pulse Bolts... the Iron Man suit isn't build for physical opponents on this level and while it keeps him alive it isn't at all unbreachable, opponents as varied as spider-man, Mandarin and Namor have all shown its limitation in the last year or two alone.




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      Whichever way you look at it he is totally outclassed here. She is vastly stronger, Faster snd more maneuvreable, better combat orientated, and has a deflective trick that renders his prime attack method irrelevant. Iron Man works best if he's given time to adapt and the opponent has some chink in the armour he can work on to open them up to an even playing filed, Wonder Woman has no particular weakness however and is an equivalent to Captain America in her ability to assess an opponent on the spot and adapt on the fly to take them down. She's better than Iron Man in any physical encounter as the combination of sheer power and fighting technique is outside his ability to match - imagine The Mandarin x6 and you get Wonder Womans rough level of power & Ability.



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    I dont think she is vastly stronger. IMO they are pretty evenly match here. Wonderwoman is to Supes what Ironman is top Thor in terms of strength IMO. So she is a tad stronger perhaps. Her little bracelets wont be able to deflect a wide angled repulsor. he Ironman armor has taken hits from Mjolnir and an enrage Hulk, he will have plenty of time to take here apart.T

Well I'm sorry but once again i disagree 100%, I simply cannot conceive of ANY Iron Man suit being able to physically fight the Superman, Reverse Flash or Gods as she has.
Iron Mans strength & Durability have never been very reliable when the opponent is as physical as this, the suit isn't built primarily for strength but his personal protection and mobility and it's one of the imbedded flaws in the character that despite technology evolving constantly he never gets any stronger or more durable.
She herself can easily tear reinforced steel apart in her hands and her bracelets are absurdly all-protective, even super-sonics don't penetrate her defences and hence Repulsors are not remotely going to be a problem unless he can get her by surprise, this is someone who blocks multiple automatic gunfire as a partytrick. Iron Man can't touch that levelof overall physical ability, and that is largely my point when combined with her intelligence and superior tactical training.

Even Extremis armour, supposedly the height of what he could build to to embolden the actual Extremis augmentation, was never invulnerable or invincible. He needs Extremis here though ideally just to be able to parry some of her attack... it was never consistently portrayed but that suits potential does make him a far closer match to her than anything else he's ever worn.


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      If he had Extremis it would a lot more competitive as he has a speed component, not that he would win of a certainty but at least he has a legitimate fighting chance of being able to counter her assault to some degree, that's if being written up to of course.



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    If it were Extremis she would be toast in under a minute.

If you say so...





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CHAD


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



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          He already admitted her speed in that series plus she had Hercules on the ground helpless!

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        Admitted what?, that she could get one shotted by a repulsor? The speed issue is tricky. Really was Supes almost flash like Speed a factor in his fight with Thor? Was Cap marvels speeed a factor in his fight with Thor? When these characters face off the whole speed advantage thing is not a factor. Why should it be a factor in this fight?



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    Was the JLAvengers matchup at the start of book Two over Metropolis remotely plausible or representative of any sense of reality...? No, it was not.


Really why? Is an offhand comment saying "she moved so fast" in the same series-describing non combat movement- remotely plausible? No. it was not.


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    If you're going to try arguing her speed advantage is a non-factor then would you object if i say his sensor array is a non-factor too?


Nope because I never claimed he would beat her with his sensor array.


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    You Either play these fights on a fair representation of how they both perform in their respective continuities or don't bother at all. If you read Wonder Woman her speed is one of her core powers, not some occasional bolted on ability like her empathy with Animals or Iron Mans Pulse Bolts... the Iron Man suit isn't build for physical opponents on this level and while it keeps him alive it isn't at all unbreachable, opponents as varied as spider-man, Mandarin and Namor have all shown its limitation in the last year or two alone.


And supes speed is a supposed core ability , ditto for Cap Marvel yet NEITHER were a factor in a Fight with Thor who has nowhere near that level of superspeed. Yet for Wonderwoman you claim it would be a factor because you say so...well I DISAGREE.

[quote Whichever way you look at it he is totally outclassed here. She is vastly stronger, Faster snd more maneuvreable, better combat orientated, and has a deflective trick that renders his prime attack method irrelevant. Iron Man works best if he's given time to adapt and the opponent has some chink in the armour he can work on to open them up to an even playing filed, Wonder Woman has no particular weakness however and is an equivalent to Captain America in her ability to assess an opponent on the spot and adapt on the fly to take them down. She's better than Iron Man in any physical encounter as the combination of sheer power and fighting technique is outside his ability to match - imagine The Mandarin x6 and you get Wonder Womans rough level of power & Ability.


Sorry but she is not stronger than theHulk. She is not more durable than Silver Surfer or Terrax. She HAS already been Kayoed by a repulsor. There is no way in high heaven she is 6x more powerful than Mandarin. She's probably not even 1.2 times as powerful IMO.




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    Well I'm sorry but once again i disagree 100%, I simply cannot conceive of ANY Iron Man suit being able to physically fight the Superman, Reverse Flash or Gods as she has.


I cant conceive her beating the Hulk, Terrax or the Surfer as HE has...


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    Iron Mans strength & Durability have never been very reliable when the opponent is as physical as this, the suit isn't built primarily for strength but his personal protection and mobility and it's one of the imbedded flaws in the character that despite technology evolving constantly he never gets any stronger or more durable.


He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them , he sure as heck can do the same versus Wonder bread woman.


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    She herself can easily tear reinforced steel apart in her hands and her bracelets are absurdly all-protective, even super-sonics don't penetrate her defences and hence Repulsors are not remotely going to be a problem unless he can get her by surprise, this is someone who blocks multiple automatic gunfire as a partytrick. Iron Man can't touch that levelof overall physical ability, and that is largely my point when combined with her intelligence and superior tactical training.


Too bad she cant block a wide area affect attack. And she can block wide area sonics?Please explain that one. Do the bracelets turn into ear plugs?



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    Even Extremis armour, supposedly the height of what he could build to to embolden the actual Extremis augmentation, was never invulnerable or invincible. He needs Extremis here though ideally just to be able to parry some of her attack... it was never consistently portrayed but that suits potential does make him a far closer match to her than anything else he's ever worn.


Who said Ironman was unbeatable? I said he could beat wonder bread woman.


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    If it were Extremis she would be toast in under a minute.[/quote


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      If you say so...


    Yes I say so.





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J





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    Really why? Is an offhand comment saying "she moved so fast" in the same series-describing non combat movement- remotely plausible? No. it was not.


It was combat because she was catching something. That's reaction time hence combat speed vs traveling speed.


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    And supes speed is a supposed core ability , ditto for Cap Marvel yet NEITHER were a factor in a Fight with Thor who has nowhere near that level of superspeed. Yet for Wonderwoman you claim it would be a factor because you say so...well I DISAGREE.


Captain Marvel has NEVER utilized his speed efficiently.

Superman, on the other hand, does quite frequently use speed and, for all intents and purposes, maybe he didn't need to use it in the fight vs Thor.


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    Sorry but she is not stronger than theHulk. She is not more durable than Silver Surfer or Terrax. She HAS already been Kayoed by a repulsor. There is no way in high heaven she is 6x more powerful than Mandarin. She's probably not even 1.2 times as powerful IMO.


She wasn't KO'ed -- the comic makes it quite clear that the ONLY reason she was incapacitated was because Iron Man sucker attacked. AND Iron Man even says that she will recover quickly... something he could not possibly know if she was down for the count.

The most plausible scenario is that she was stunned under the rubble and would have had to get her bearing and break free.


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    I cant conceive her beating the Hulk, Terrax or the Surfer as HE
    has...


Black Panther showed that a martial skill advantage over Silver Surfer can take him out of a fight. Diana is a better fighter than T'Challa. She's also stronger and faster.

You might not be able to conceive of her beating Hulk but she's bested Superman and Hulk isn't in Superman's class.


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    He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them , he sure as heck can do the same versus Wonder bread woman.


He couldn't against Sentry.


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    Too bad she cant block a wide area affect attack. And she can block wide area sonics?Please explain that one. Do the bracelets turn into ear plugs?


Actually she can. The Vambraces coalesce energy... so wide range or not is irrelevant. If she crosses the bracelets they create a forcefield around her as well.

Oh, and she has blocked sonic attacks. One of her most notable adversaries is the Silver Swan who utilizes incredibly powerful sonics (enough to melt metal and destroy city blocks).


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    Who said Ironman was unbeatable? I said he could beat wonder bread woman.


What's the hostility for?



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Liam Gallagher's Unibrow


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





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      He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them , he sure as heck can do the same versus Wonder bread woman.



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    He couldn't against Sentry.



Um.... what? That's exactly what he did against Sentry....




Cheers.





Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
(work in progress)
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
J




Sentry physically dominated him. He only beat Sentry through non physical means.


Posted with Google Chrome 3.0.195.38 on Windows 7
Liam Gallagher's Unibrow


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




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    Sentry physically dominated him. He only beat Sentry through non physical means.


In what possible way does that go against the statement:

"He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them"

???





Cheers.







Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
(work in progress)
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
CHAD


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



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      Sentry physically dominated him. He only beat Sentry through non physical means.



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    In what possible way does that go against the statement:



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    "He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them"



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    ???



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    Cheers.



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Thank you, a voice of reason.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.5.3 on Windows XP
J





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      Sentry physically dominated him. He only beat Sentry through non physical means.



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    In what possible way does that go against the statement:



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    "He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them"


Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.



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Jaysin1414




I'm not touching the JLA/Avengers Iron Man v. Wonder Woman discussion* because we're simply not going to see eye to eye on any aspect of that confrontation. Our interpretations are irreparably different. So be it.

However...

How can you say that Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against the Sentry? That was the only thing he was able to do - is withstand some of Sentry's shots while coming up with a path to victory. There was no damage done to Iron Man's armor whatsoever (besides perhaps a small ding or cinematic paint chip flying off)...yet the Sentry punched him through a monument and was sent specifically to kill Iron Man.

I think you're wrong on this one J. Iron Man might not have been able to beat Sentry physically - but that wasn't the point being made. The point was about durability...and there's no doubt he had more than enough durability to buy him time to find a way to win...which is exactly what he always does when he faces physically superior foes.

Beating WW would be no different, survive a few shots while getting her into a situation where the odds fall into his favor. It wouldn't happen every time, but I have no doubt that he could and would beat her his fair share of the time (heck, I think he's already 1-0 against her - but I understand that some might disagree).

* OK - I touched it a little bit...




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Liam Gallagher's Unibrow


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





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    Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.


So... what you are saying is I, and everyone else, *imagined* Iron Man taking Sentry's biggest shots for long enough to devise a way to take down a more powerful character? Iron Man actually got KO'd because he wasn't durable enough to hang in there, right? That's what you are saying, isn't it??

Sometimes you amaze me, you really do.

Iron Man proved he WAS durable to take Sentry's blows *long enough to beat him*, just like he did with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria, whoever, which is all the original poster ever said and he was spot on.






Cheers.







Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
(work in progress)
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
J





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      Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.



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    So... what you are saying is I, and everyone else, *imagined* Iron Man taking Sentry's biggest shots for long enough to devise a way to take down a more powerful character? Iron Man actually got KO'd because he wasn't durable enough to hang in there, right? That's what you are saying, isn't it??



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    Sometimes you amaze me, you really do.



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    Iron Man proved he WAS durable to take Sentry's blows *long enough to beat him*, just like he did with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria, whoever, which is all the original poster ever said and he was spot on.



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    Cheers.


Uhm, no. That is not what I'm saying AT ALL.

Iron Man was totally outmatched by Sentry. This shouldn't even be up for debate. Was IM able to withstand Sentry's assault long enough to devise a plan to win? YES. No one is doubting that.

The point remains that had Tony not come up with an alternate way to beat Sentry (one that didn't involve power or physical confrontation) he would have been peeled open like a tuna can. THAT part is quite clear in the story.



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Jaysin1414





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          Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.

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          So... what you are saying is I, and everyone else, *imagined* Iron Man taking Sentry's biggest shots for long enough to devise a way to take down a more powerful character? Iron Man actually got KO'd because he wasn't durable enough to hang in there, right? That's what you are saying, isn't it??

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            Sometimes you amaze me, you really do.

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              Iron Man proved he WAS durable to take Sentry's blows *long enough to beat him*, just like he did with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria, whoever, which is all the original poster ever said and he was spot on.

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                Cheers.



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    Uhm, no. That is not what I'm saying AT ALL.


This is exactly what you said "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry."



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    Iron Man was totally outmatched by Sentry. This shouldn't even be up for debate.


That part isn't being debated. You're bringing it up and moving the goalposts - but the point was that Iron Man was durable enough to take the best that the Hulk, Nefaria, She-Hulk, and yes...even the Sentry, had to offer long enough to come up with a plan for victory.


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    Was IM able to withstand Sentry's assault long enough to devise a plan to win? YES. No one is doubting that.


Ummm...according to what YOU said (again, here is your quote "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.") apparently YOU were doubting it.


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    The point remains that had Tony not come up with an alternate way to beat Sentry (one that didn't involve power or physical confrontation) he would have been peeled open like a tuna can. THAT part is quite clear in the story.


No. The ONLY thing that is made CLEAR in the issue is Iron Man's durability and ingenuity. Everything else is interpretation of the events and drawing one's own conclusion from things unsaid. You choose to believe that Iron Man was about to be opened up like a tuna can. Having read Iron Man since issue #102 straight, I'm fairly certain that the number of folks that have been able to compromise the armor* are VERY few. The rampaging Hulk couldn't do it - so I'm thinking that Tony would be pretty confident that even the vaunted Sentry might have some problems breaking through it. Even Nefaria (classic Nefaria AND Nefaria reboot) was unable to tear the armor apart**. Why should the Sentry be that much bigger a threat than Nefaria (remembering that the Sentry - at that time - had not exhibited the level of power he is now showing)?

I'm not about to tell you how to read comic books here, interpret things however you like. Just understand that whenever you say something is "clear", it is not. It is clear to you - but that represents a consensus of one. Our mileage may vary...

.
*Please note that I am discussing his own title here...Bendis has made the armor pretty worthless over in the cross-overs and team books, and JMS didn't give it much love either. From the Knaufs and back, the one fairly consistent tenet of Iron Man has been his durability. It was shocking when the Living Laser was able to breach his armor, because of the armor's history of being very resilient...

.
** To be fair, Iron Man's second run-in with Nefaria ended up with Shellhead's armor being a ragged mess - but it was still fully functional.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.5.7 on Windows XP
J




This is a pointless debate. You cite examples of the armor being destroyed yourself and yet you make an argument for the armor being so resilient as to withstand Sentry.

That's nonsense. And, yes, the issue was CLEAR that Iron Man COULD NOT LAST against Sentry. This is why Tony had to come up with ANOTHER way to defeat him (which he did).

Sentry > Rampaging Hulk. So using the Hulk as basis really doesn't support your argument.




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            Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.

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            So... what you are saying is I, and everyone else, *imagined* Iron Man taking Sentry's biggest shots for long enough to devise a way to take down a more powerful character? Iron Man actually got KO'd because he wasn't durable enough to hang in there, right? That's what you are saying, isn't it??

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              Sometimes you amaze me, you really do.

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                Iron Man proved he WAS durable to take Sentry's blows *long enough to beat him*, just like he did with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria, whoever, which is all the original poster ever said and he was spot on.

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                  Cheers.

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        Uhm, no. That is not what I'm saying AT ALL.



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    This is exactly what you said "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry."



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      Iron Man was totally outmatched by Sentry. This shouldn't even be up for debate.



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    That part isn't being debated. You're bringing it up and moving the goalposts - but the point was that Iron Man was durable enough to take the best that the Hulk, Nefaria, She-Hulk, and yes...even the Sentry, had to offer long enough to come up with a plan for victory.



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      Was IM able to withstand Sentry's assault long enough to devise a plan to win? YES. No one is doubting that.



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    Ummm...according to what YOU said (again, here is your quote "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.") apparently YOU were doubting it.



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      The point remains that had Tony not come up with an alternate way to beat Sentry (one that didn't involve power or physical confrontation) he would have been peeled open like a tuna can. THAT part is quite clear in the story.



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    No. The ONLY thing that is made CLEAR in the issue is Iron Man's durability and ingenuity. Everything else is interpretation of the events and drawing one's own conclusion from things unsaid. You choose to believe that Iron Man was about to be opened up like a tuna can. Having read Iron Man since issue #102 straight, I'm fairly certain that the number of folks that have been able to compromise the armor* are VERY few. The rampaging Hulk couldn't do it - so I'm thinking that Tony would be pretty confident that even the vaunted Sentry might have some problems breaking through it. Even Nefaria (classic Nefaria AND Nefaria reboot) was unable to tear the armor apart**. Why should the Sentry be that much bigger a threat than Nefaria (remembering that the Sentry - at that time - had not exhibited the level of power he is now showing)?



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    I'm not about to tell you how to read comic books here, interpret things however you like. Just understand that whenever you say something is "clear", it is not. It is clear to you - but that represents a consensus of one. Our mileage may vary...



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    .



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    *Please note that I am discussing his own title here...Bendis has made the armor pretty worthless over in the cross-overs and team books, and JMS didn't give it much love either. From the Knaufs and back, the one fairly consistent tenet of Iron Man has been his durability. It was shocking when the Living Laser was able to breach his armor, because of the armor's history of being very resilient...



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    ** To be fair, Iron Man's second run-in with Nefaria ended up with Shellhead's armor being a ragged mess - but it was still fully functional.





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Jaysin1414





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    This is a pointless debate. You cite examples of the armor being destroyed yourself and yet you make an argument for the armor being so resilient as to withstand Sentry.


I pointed out Living Laser who pierced it and Nefaria that gave an older armor a real beating and it not only withstood his onslaught, but it lasted long enough for Tony to find a way to win. My point remains valid.


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    That's nonsense. And, yes, the issue was CLEAR that Iron Man COULD NOT LAST against Sentry. This is why Tony had to come up with ANOTHER way to defeat him (which he did).


To reiterate...clear to you. The fact that Tony found another way to win isn't necessarily exclusive to the fact that he couldn't last against Sentry. What it is is consistent with how Iron Man fights, however. I would happen to agree that Tony shouldn't be able to physically beat the Sentry; however, at no point was it made clear (as you put it) that the armor could not last against the Sentry. It lasted against Graviton and Mallen before the Sentry, so there's little reason to believe it wouldn't have held up against Superm...Sentry.


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    Sentry > Rampaging Hulk. So using the Hulk as basis really doesn't support your argument.


And you conveniently left out my mention of Nefaria. Nice. Because, of course, a comparison to Nefaria doesn't support my argument either, does it?


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              Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.

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              So... what you are saying is I, and everyone else, *imagined* Iron Man taking Sentry's biggest shots for long enough to devise a way to take down a more powerful character? Iron Man actually got KO'd because he wasn't durable enough to hang in there, right? That's what you are saying, isn't it??

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                Sometimes you amaze me, you really do.

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                  Iron Man proved he WAS durable to take Sentry's blows *long enough to beat him*, just like he did with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria, whoever, which is all the original poster ever said and he was spot on.

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                    Cheers.

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          Uhm, no. That is not what I'm saying AT ALL.

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        This is exactly what you said "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry."

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            Iron Man was totally outmatched by Sentry. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

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            That part isn't being debated. You're bringing it up and moving the goalposts - but the point was that Iron Man was durable enough to take the best that the Hulk, Nefaria, She-Hulk, and yes...even the Sentry, had to offer long enough to come up with a plan for victory.

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                Was IM able to withstand Sentry's assault long enough to devise a plan to win? YES. No one is doubting that.

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                Ummm...according to what YOU said (again, here is your quote "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.") apparently YOU were doubting it.

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                    The point remains that had Tony not come up with an alternate way to beat Sentry (one that didn't involve power or physical confrontation) he would have been peeled open like a tuna can. THAT part is quite clear in the story.

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                    No. The ONLY thing that is made CLEAR in the issue is Iron Man's durability and ingenuity. Everything else is interpretation of the events and drawing one's own conclusion from things unsaid. You choose to believe that Iron Man was about to be opened up like a tuna can. Having read Iron Man since issue #102 straight, I'm fairly certain that the number of folks that have been able to compromise the armor* are VERY few. The rampaging Hulk couldn't do it - so I'm thinking that Tony would be pretty confident that even the vaunted Sentry might have some problems breaking through it. Even Nefaria (classic Nefaria AND Nefaria reboot) was unable to tear the armor apart**. Why should the Sentry be that much bigger a threat than Nefaria (remembering that the Sentry - at that time - had not exhibited the level of power he is now showing)?

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                      I'm not about to tell you how to read comic books here, interpret things however you like. Just understand that whenever you say something is "clear", it is not. It is clear to you - but that represents a consensus of one. Our mileage may vary...

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                        .

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                          *Please note that I am discussing his own title here...Bendis has made the armor pretty worthless over in the cross-overs and team books, and JMS didn't give it much love either. From the Knaufs and back, the one fairly consistent tenet of Iron Man has been his durability. It was shocking when the Living Laser was able to breach his armor, because of the armor's history of being very resilient...

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                              ** To be fair, Iron Man's second run-in with Nefaria ended up with Shellhead's armor being a ragged mess - but it was still fully functional.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.5.7 on Windows XP
Liam Gallagher's Unibrow


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





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    Iron Man was totally outmatched by Sentry. This shouldn't even be up for debate. Was IM able to withstand Sentry's assault long enough to devise a plan to win? YES. No one is doubting that.


Were you drunk when you made your original post or something?!

CHAD said that Iron Man was durable "enough" to last against the big guys *for long enough to win*. He said nothing about being able to last indefinitely.

You, in return, then flat-out said that Iron Man was not able to last long enough against Sentry to win.... which is exactly what he did.


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    The point remains that had Tony not come up with an alternate way to beat Sentry (one that didn't involve power or physical confrontation) he would have been peeled open like a tuna can. THAT part is quite clear in the story.


Completely and utterly irrelevant to what the original point was.

Iron Man was durable enough to take Sentry/Hulk/Nefaria/etc.'s hits *until he could come up with a way to win*. That is all that was ever said and that is what you, incredibly, disputed with an example on which Iron Man did EXACTLY what CHAD said he was capable of doing.





Cheers.







Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
(work in progress)
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
J





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    Were you drunk when you made your original post or something?!


Is this necessary? It's incredibly rude and I don't think I said anything to warrant this type of response. I've always been very respectful toward you and your opinions... I don't think I deserve this type of treatment.


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    CHAD said that Iron Man was durable "enough" to last against the big guys *for long enough to win*. He said nothing about being able to last indefinitely.


CHAD wrote: "He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them , he sure as heck can do the same versus Wonder bread woman."

I responded with: "He couldn't against Sentry."

I wasn't implying he didn't win the fight. Quite the contrary. And if the archive feature is working you can view my thoughts on the fight when the issue came out. Tony won fair and square. There is no debating it whatsoever. But the issue also made it clear that physically Tony was outmatched. He was in trouble. There was no way he could withstand Sentry... he was being tossed around like a rag doll.


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    You, in return, then flat-out said that Iron Man was not able to last long enough against Sentry to win.... which is exactly what he did.


The fact that Iron Man had to find OTHER means to win proves that he wasn't able to physically last against Sentry.

I'm not really sure why this point is being contested. If the armor was able to withstand a full on Sentry onslaught then there would have been no reason for Tony to need to find alternative means to defeat Sentry.




Posted with Google Chrome 3.0.195.38 on Windows XP
J




Just so we're clear, and we have discussed this before, Iron Man is one of my favorite Marvel heroes. I believe that he should be one of the MU's most powerful players. I hate that Extremis is no longer around as I felt it gave him a necessary power-up (with a logical explanation/usage).

Having said that I still don't believe that his speed, strength or durability match up with how he SHOULD be or with other top tier characters like Thor, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc.

Where Tony excels, his strong point, is his brain. And I can see Marvel feeling it is unnecessary to give him a power boost because his brain is far beyond 99.5% of his adversaries.



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      This is a pointless debate. You cite examples of the armor being destroyed yourself and yet you make an argument for the armor being so resilient as to withstand Sentry.



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    I pointed out Living Laser who pierced it and Nefaria that gave an older armor a real beating and it not only withstood his onslaught, but it lasted long enough for Tony to find a way to win. My point remains valid.



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      That's nonsense. And, yes, the issue was CLEAR that Iron Man COULD NOT LAST against Sentry. This is why Tony had to come up with ANOTHER way to defeat him (which he did).



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    To reiterate...clear to you. The fact that Tony found another way to win isn't necessarily exclusive to the fact that he couldn't last against Sentry. What it is is consistent with how Iron Man fights, however. I would happen to agree that Tony shouldn't be able to physically beat the Sentry; however, at no point was it made clear (as you put it) that the armor could not last against the Sentry. It lasted against Graviton and Mallen before the Sentry, so there's little reason to believe it wouldn't have held up against Superm...Sentry.



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      Sentry > Rampaging Hulk. So using the Hulk as basis really doesn't support your argument.



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    And you conveniently left out my mention of Nefaria. Nice. Because, of course, a comparison to Nefaria doesn't support my argument either, does it?



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                Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.

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                So... what you are saying is I, and everyone else, *imagined* Iron Man taking Sentry's biggest shots for long enough to devise a way to take down a more powerful character? Iron Man actually got KO'd because he wasn't durable enough to hang in there, right? That's what you are saying, isn't it??

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                  Sometimes you amaze me, you really do.

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                    Iron Man proved he WAS durable to take Sentry's blows *long enough to beat him*, just like he did with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria, whoever, which is all the original poster ever said and he was spot on.

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                      Cheers.

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            Uhm, no. That is not what I'm saying AT ALL.

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          This is exactly what you said "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry."

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              Iron Man was totally outmatched by Sentry. This shouldn't even be up for debate.

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              That part isn't being debated. You're bringing it up and moving the goalposts - but the point was that Iron Man was durable enough to take the best that the Hulk, Nefaria, She-Hulk, and yes...even the Sentry, had to offer long enough to come up with a plan for victory.

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                  Was IM able to withstand Sentry's assault long enough to devise a plan to win? YES. No one is doubting that.

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                  Ummm...according to what YOU said (again, here is your quote "Because Sentry is more powerful than Hulk and Iron Man wasn't durable enough to last against Sentry.") apparently YOU were doubting it.

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                      The point remains that had Tony not come up with an alternate way to beat Sentry (one that didn't involve power or physical confrontation) he would have been peeled open like a tuna can. THAT part is quite clear in the story.

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                      No. The ONLY thing that is made CLEAR in the issue is Iron Man's durability and ingenuity. Everything else is interpretation of the events and drawing one's own conclusion from things unsaid. You choose to believe that Iron Man was about to be opened up like a tuna can. Having read Iron Man since issue #102 straight, I'm fairly certain that the number of folks that have been able to compromise the armor* are VERY few. The rampaging Hulk couldn't do it - so I'm thinking that Tony would be pretty confident that even the vaunted Sentry might have some problems breaking through it. Even Nefaria (classic Nefaria AND Nefaria reboot) was unable to tear the armor apart**. Why should the Sentry be that much bigger a threat than Nefaria (remembering that the Sentry - at that time - had not exhibited the level of power he is now showing)?

                      Quote:

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                        I'm not about to tell you how to read comic books here, interpret things however you like. Just understand that whenever you say something is "clear", it is not. It is clear to you - but that represents a consensus of one. Our mileage may vary...

                        Quote:

                          Quote:
                          .

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                            *Please note that I am discussing his own title here...Bendis has made the armor pretty worthless over in the cross-overs and team books, and JMS didn't give it much love either. From the Knaufs and back, the one fairly consistent tenet of Iron Man has been his durability. It was shocking when the Living Laser was able to breach his armor, because of the armor's history of being very resilient...

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                              .

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                                ** To be fair, Iron Man's second run-in with Nefaria ended up with Shellhead's armor being a ragged mess - but it was still fully functional.



Posted with Google Chrome 3.0.195.38 on Windows XP
Liam Gallagher's Unibrow


Location: Mega-City One
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





    Quote:
    Is this necessary? It's incredibly rude and I don't think I said anything to warrant this type of response. I've always been very respectful toward you and your opinions... I don't think I deserve this type of treatment.


You're right. I apologise.



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    CHAD wrote: "He's durable enough to last against HULK, SURFER, and TERRAX in order to beat them , he sure as heck can do the same versus Wonder bread woman."



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    I responded with: "He couldn't against Sentry."



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    I wasn't implying he didn't win the fight. Quite the contrary. And if the archive feature is working you can view my thoughts on the fight when the issue came out. Tony won fair and square. There is no debating it whatsoever. But the issue also made it clear that physically Tony was outmatched. He was in trouble. There was no way he could withstand Sentry... he was being tossed around like a rag doll.


Well that's the thing.... at no point did CHAD say Iron Man was durable enough to last for ever or even for very long against these people. All he said was that Iron Man was durable enough to last LONG ENOUGH to find some way of winning.

You responded to that point by saying he couldn't against Sentry, when in actual fact that is exactly, to the very letter, what happened in that fight.

His fights with Hulk, Surfer, Nefaria etc also made it very, very clear that Tony couldn't hope to compete in a raw power sense.... but just like the Sentry fight, he lasted *long enough* to find a means of winning.... which is all CHAD ever said.


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    The fact that Iron Man had to find OTHER means to win proves that he wasn't able to physically last against Sentry.


Which has NOTHING to do with what CHAD said. See above.


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    I'm not really sure why this point is being contested. If the armor was able to withstand a full on Sentry onslaught then there would have been no reason for Tony to need to find alternative means to defeat Sentry.


Again, completely not what CHAD said. You seem to have completely misinterpreted his statement.

Iron Man *isn't* durable enough to go blow-for-blow with the elites forever. He *is* durable enough to take some shots from them and keep him in the game long enough to put his brains to work and figure out an alternate means of victory - like he did vs Hulk, vs Nefaria, and indeed vs Sentry. Which is exactly what CHAD's statement was about.





Cheers.






Chancellor Liam, Dean of the Forgotten Green Academy of Gamma Sciences
"Hulk would have to be in a life or death struggle for a good 25+ years to BEGIN to start to surpass [Thor]." - MjolnirsPower
I Fought the Law and the Law Won... A Judge Dredd Respect Thread
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=2435.0
(work in progress)
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista

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