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Volstagg jr




Spidey for some reason I can't fathom, has trouble against the likes of Punisher, Kingpin and Daredevil; hell I think DD once KOed him. Black Cat, Silver Sable and Foreigner have also given him trouble. Wolvie looks bad against Daredevil and Electra even though he's taken shots from The Hulk and kept fighting. So which of these guys who have stood up to herald level characters gets their ass handed to them more often against the likes of Batroc the Leaper and Frogman?

And since this is a battleboard.

Current Magneto vs Current Thor


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Surt




Well the thing with Spidey is that his powers apparently vary a lot depending on his emotional status. At least after DeWolff was killed, he was off his rockers when DD managed to knock him out.

Im not sure if Spidey ever actually struggled against Kingpin, most of those incidents Spidey was toying with him. Punisher, have they really fought outside the Garth Ennis story? Usually its a bit of talk back and fourth, dodge a few bullets, and then they team up with Punisher swearing he "will not kill anyone".

Black Cat used to have that bad luck power that gave him trouble. But generally Spidey doesn't do as well if his heart isn't in the fight. Then he tries to reason with the guy he is fighting, while taking a bit of punishment. But other times, when he is angry and determined, he can pretty much end the fight pretty quickly, like he did with Deadpool a few years back. Then its no nonsense Peter doing what is needed to take down his opponent as fast as possible.


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Incriptus


Location: Incriptus
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,735


Wolverine is supposed to be good, Spiderman is supposed to be supernaturally good.




Only Drax the Legend can quote Drax the Legend. NT · Drax the Legend
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The Real Lance Eason




For many, perhaps most, characters with super-strength, they have durability that seems roughly equivalent. For instance, the Thing and Colossus are similar in strength levels and both seem to have the durability to take each other's punches pretty well. Ditto for Thor and the Hulk, Superman and Captain Marvel, etc.
I've not seen much to suggest that Spidey can't be knocked out by an amount of force similar to that needed to knock out a normal human. Of course, he DOES face off against foes with strength similar to his own (Scorpion, Venom,etc.) or even much greater. But, I've always gotten the impression that his success against super powered punches depends mostly on avoiding them or rolling with them enough to minimize their impact by a huge margin. Someone really fast and skillful like Daredevil might be able to get a solid enough shot to actually k.o. him even though he is using less force.
Wolverine would be in a similar position if his healing factor and adamantium skull didn't provide him extra protection from being k.o.'d, so he is harder to explain.

Of course, as I wrote about Spidey's lack of heightened durability, I started to wonder if I wasn't selling him short. He's probably taken hits over the years that would kill an ordinary human, whether he rolls with the punch or not, so maybe that initial theory of mine doesn't hold up at all. Thoughts?



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Surt




Spidey does have a pretty impressive durability. He has taken blows from Hulk, been punched through concrete walls etc and kept on going. Most of Spideys "low" showings are from quite a few years ago. He was portrayed pretty consistently through the 90s and during JMS' run. After he was depowered in "Brand New Day" he seems to be a bit more goofy and prone to lower showings. Though I haven't really seen anything truly jarring so far.


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dave




I'd say that his "hard" durability is quite a bit better than Wolverine's, who is pretty much a normal human in that category. With healing and adamantium, he's almost indestructible while Spider-man clearly isn't though. I give Spidey better hard durability because he can pick up a tank without his back breaking, live through a bomb exploding on his back, take a punch from the Rhino, etc. There is a tendency for writers to come in and do a street type of story and have Spidey portrayed as having normal human vulnerability, but this is a small minority. We've seen comics in which Spidey just stands there while normal humans unload on him and he's completely unhurt yet we've also seen him knocked out by one.

Of course if the Silver Surfer can get knocked out by a brick and normal humans and we let it doesn't pull down his average much, I think Spidey still holds a decent average in durability. Interestingly, there is a trade off with Spidey writers as there is with Hulk. Hulk seems to trade some hard durability for healing and sometimes the other way around. In Spidey's case, we see an exchange between his spider sense and dodging ability with his durability. Sometimes you'll get a Spider-man who can run through a rainstorm without getting wet but he'll be hurt by a punch from Ox and at others you'll see him get blindsided by bricks and not seem hurt. In higher end depictions he has impressive levels of both attributes. In a similar fashion, Wolverine's healing is often balanced by his fighting ability. Typically, when he has one he won't have as much of the other.

To address the point about who is easier to knock out, having an adamantium skull shouldn't help with this. People typically get their lights knocked out when their brain hits the side of the skull. With a really hard skull, this should just make the problem worse. Because of this, my guess would be that Wolverine's healing is what really keeps him from being KO'd as easily as a normal guy. In regards to Spider-man v. Daredevil, it was possible for DD to knock him out using his billy club a half a dozen times on the back of Spidey's head, but DD commented on how he was barely out. Again, not a high end depiction for Spidey there.

For a more recent durability feat of Spidey at classic levels, look at when he started losing his powers in New Avengers. He fell so hard he smashed a fire truck and pushed it backwards. A normal human would be a red smear on the side of the truck.


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Amor Fati






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ArtTeacher


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,201


Anyone that can own top-tiers like Wolverine does should never go down to Streets like he does.


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Surly Rockbottom






Determining the answer to this question empirically would take a tremendous amount of time and effort given the amount of appearances each of these characters has.

What I would like to offer is an explanation of the ABILITY to "job".

I've noticed in the replies that there is somewhat of a logical fallacy occurring in terms of durability and the ability to get knocked out. I have personally seen a young man get hit by a truck (doing roughly 20 km per hour) and laugh it off, and then seen that same man get kicked in the head by a child and become stunned. I'm sure the fallacy is becoming apparent:

Battleboard Poster 1: I can't believe how much young man just jobbed to that child! He's been hit by a truck and been fine. The writer's of reality suck! This is just bad writing!

Battleboard Poster 2 (A rabid fanboy of Child): It just goes to show that Child can kick HARDER THAN A MOVING TRUCK. This is going in my Child Respect Thread.

As other posters have noted; Wolverine clearly has a power-based durability, Spider-Man's is not as apparent, but has been borne out over the years visually. I would argue that Spider-Man is much more durable than the average human - but is still capable of getting downed by a well-placed hit (which I'm sure everyone would agree that Daredevil is more than perfectly capable of delivering).

Perhaps, in the context of the question you're asking, it is best to put it this way: Yes, Spider-Man can lay a beatdown on an unsuspecting, overconfident Firelord when he goes all-out with considerable strength and speed, and Wolverine can take Hulk hits (given that his bones CAN'T be broken, nor his limbs severed - and he has a healing factor), but both can still be one-shotted with a one really good well-placed/lucky/skilled etc. hit.

I would also argue that when Spidey or Wolvie go up against a considerably mightier foe they will brace themselves/fight better/roll with more punches than they would against someone who doesn't SEEM like such a threat. Overconfidence is a huge game changer in a fight, and the reason many characters job IMO.

And since this is a battleboard:

I give it to Current Thor. Magneto is a HUGE threat here if he plays smart, but Mags just fights too stupidly sometimes. Magneto has to go all out here in a full frontal assault (if he can't pull off a sneak attack, which even then is dicey). Magneto definitely has the power to put Thor on his knees, but a KO is just too statistically thin. Thor has shown the ability to perfectly counter Magneto's powers before, and his current capability with his powers is good, so he'll have Magneto on the run before long.



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ArtTeacher


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,201


Good post and I pretty much agree with everything you said.
However, MAN getting hit 20 different times by a truck and getting kicked 20 different times by CHILD, I give the truck an overwhelming majority.

If Spider-Man’s skin and bones are durable enough to not take damage when lifting 20,000 pounds over his head, you would think punching him would be a lot different than punching a normal dude. Having said that, of course a street-level guy could knock Spidey out…it would just be harder than knocking out an average Street.

In relation to the original post, the question is more like who jobs more—MAN 1 to CHILD and others like him or MAN 2 to CHILD and others like him?
In other words, the majority of the time, for all intents and purposes, MAN 1 & 2 should be able to beat CHILDREN fairly easy, but which MAN loses the most to CHILDREN?

In my opinion, Spider-Man is more powerful than Wolverine.
When Spidey loses to Captain America, Batman, etc., it seems more implausible than when Wolverine loses to Captain America, Batman, etc.



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Urban Cowboy





    Quote:
    Spidey for some reason I can't fathom, has trouble against the likes of Punisher, Kingpin and Daredevil; hell I think DD once KOed him. Black Cat, Silver Sable and Foreigner have also given him trouble. Wolvie looks bad against Daredevil and Electra even though he's taken shots from The Hulk and kept fighting. So which of these guys who have stood up to herald level characters gets their ass handed to them more often against the likes of Batroc the Leaper and Frogman?

I think Spiderman jobs more often. More often than not, he's the some writer picks to show "his" (that writer's) guy is such a force to be reconded with. The only writer I can think of who sometimes made Wolverine job is Chris Claremont. And even then, that was to whatever Mary Sue character he (Claremont) was showcasing that month. And even then, Claremont never had Wolverine job as much as he did all the other male X-Men.
But I don't recall either Wolverine or Spiderman jobbing to characters like Frogman.


    Quote:
    And since this is a battleboard.



    Quote:
    Current Magneto vs Current Thor

Thor




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Surly Rockbottom

got on to a bit of a rant there . . .






 . . . but I totally agree with what you are saying re: Spidey vs. Wolverine in terms of durability and its pertinence to the question.
I think I tried to sort of attempt to say the same thing (kind of).
If anything, I think that each "job" should be analysed independently with the logic problem fully in mind. I was just thinking that to do so would be a heckuva task.
In any case, the Child Respect Thread is going to suck. He's a jerk.



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dave




But what top tiers has Wolverine "owned" throught his history. In the last couple years he's been one-shotted by Sentry and Namor, beaten to a pulp by Hulk, and beaten by both Daredevil and Captain America. Sure, he's pretty indestructible and his powers make it hard to count him out of any fight, but I think you are churching it up a bit. He didn't look very impressive against the Wrecker and didn't look like he had much of a chance of beating Thor, and all of the fights I've named were in the last few years of uber Wolverine.


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Bootch 

Manager

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,492


nt


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