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abhijit




Recently its a quite a raging debate whether JLA/Avengers is the only comparison between these two and I thought I should put all of the other meetings or comparison between Superman and Thor here.

Unlimited Access 3:

JLA is fighting Avengers, so Access brings one hero who can fix all of that mess. Its electric Superman of course.

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Superman/Fantastic Four:

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Reed Richards says that Superman is perhaps the most powerful hero on both earths and Thor is explicitly name dropped by Franklin Richards as well.

There are other indirect comparisons as well but I think that puts Superman ahead of Thor in their encounters by quite a bit.

Thoughts?


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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,603


I think of Superman as physically superior, but Thor has a host of EP and mystical powers so that it is difficult to say if Superman is overall more powerful.


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abhijit





    Quote:
    I think of Superman as physically superior, but Thor has a host of EP and mystical powers so that it is difficult to say if Superman is overall more powerful.


But its pretty specifically stated by Reed under Jurgens.

Its not fan speculation.


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Grhulk





    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think of Superman as physically superior, but Thor has a host of EP and mystical powers so that it is difficult to say if Superman is overall more powerful.



    Quote:
    But its pretty specifically stated by Reed under Jurgens.



    Quote:
    Its not fan speculation.


Is still a not-cannon story. In another story Batman states that Hyde is powerful enough to push Superman into space and Venom has beaten him up so I wouldn't count that much on those kind of story. That said I agree that Superman has the edge on strenght and durability and Thor has the advantage in magic.
That said it depends on the writer how much Supes can be affected by magic. Sometime a mere spell can take him down easely, other times he can fight powerful beings which use magic and stand his ground or even win.


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bouken red




One issue even featured electric Superman. How does that factor in comparing Thor and Superman? Ok, story-wise, let's assume Access got regular Superman, does he have electric powers to snap out the heroes from both universes out of their funk? No. The electric shock did not even KO any of the weaker heroes, so I doubt if it could have KOed Thor. So, Access bringing someone who can put a stop to it does not mean he is the most powerful, but he has the powers to accomplish the task (jolting the heroes just enough to snap out of their mental incapacity at the time...which regular Superman cannot do).

The second issue you cited, Thow wasn't even there, except in action figure form. So Reed Richards said that Superman is PERHAPS the most powerful hero in both worlds, so what? Franklin Richards said "I bet Superman is bigger than Thor", which is of course not true (Superman is 6'3, Thor is 6'6). When John Byrne wrote Reed saying "superman is perhaps the most powerful hero in both worlds and now he is under the thrall of Galactus"....or something to that effect....storywise it made sense...because by then it made the "Herald of Galactus Superman" that much more of a threat. Hiw stupid would it have sounded if John Byrne wrote Reed saying something like..."Superman, the most powerful hero in both our worlds next to Thor, Hulk, Martian Manhunter, etc." Silly, right? Of course.




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Primetime




I would say that this is a good example of over-extrapolation.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,011


With respect, this is pretty lazy analysis. Venom beat Superman too...

Not to mention all sorts of characters can be the most powerful in a given story. Just how it is.

JLA/Avengers probably got close to being right with the two having a slug out. Superman barely outlasts Thor in a straight fight, but one could argue Thor did not use many other powers either.

I see no reason based on both continuities that either are much stronger or weaker than the other. Particularly when all of their pasts are taking together. Or at least what is considered cannon for Superman.

DC gets harder to figure with every reboot.




Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,011



    Quote:
    One issue even featured electric Superman. How does that factor in comparing Thor and Superman? Ok, story-wise, let's assume Access got regular Superman, does he have electric powers to snap out the heroes from both universes out of their funk? No. The electric shock did not even KO any of the weaker heroes, so I doubt if it could have KOed Thor. So, Access bringing someone who can put a stop to it does not mean he is the most powerful, but he has the powers to accomplish the task (jolting the heroes just enough to snap out of their mental incapacity at the time...which regular Superman cannot do).



    Quote:
    The second issue you cited, Thow wasn't even there, except in action figure form. So Reed Richards said that Superman is PERHAPS the most powerful hero in both worlds, so what? Franklin Richards said "I bet Superman is bigger than Thor", which is of course not true (Superman is 6'3, Thor is 6'6). When John Byrne wrote Reed saying "superman is perhaps the most powerful hero in both worlds and now he is under the thrall of Galactus"....or something to that effect....storywise it made sense...because by then it made the "Herald of Galactus Superman" that much more of a threat. Hiw stupid would it have sounded if John Byrne wrote Reed saying something like..."Superman, the most powerful hero in both our worlds next to Thor, Hulk, Martian Manhunter, etc." Silly, right? Of course.


To be fair, Superman with the power cosmic probably would be the most powerful given his baseline power, but that has no barring on much else. Thor has taken that up in a few comics too, as have Hulk and others and they are unstoppable with that power added too.




Look Raist bunnies...
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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,653



    Quote:
    I would say that this is a good example of over-extrapolation.







THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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abhijit





    Quote:
    I would say that this is a good example of over-extrapolation.


I'm not sure how Superman being the hero to specefically bring to stop JLA and Avengers or Superman being stated perhaps the most powerful hero on both earths is extrapolation?




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abhijit





    Quote:
    One issue even featured electric Superman. How does that factor in comparing Thor and Superman? Ok, story-wise, let's assume Access got regular Superman, does he have electric powers to snap out the heroes from both universes out of their funk? No. The electric shock did not even KO any of the weaker heroes, so I doubt if it could have KOed Thor. So, Access bringing someone who can put a stop to it does not mean he is the most powerful, but he has the powers to accomplish the task (jolting the heroes just enough to snap out of their mental incapacity at the time...which regular Superman cannot do).


What? That was just to showcase that the writer thought Superman could stop both jla and Avengers.

And Electric Superman was specefically less powerful.


    Quote:
    The second issue you cited, Thow wasn't even there, except in action figure form. So Reed Richards said that Superman is PERHAPS the most powerful hero in both worlds, so what? Franklin Richards said "I bet Superman is bigger than Thor", which is of course not true (Superman is 6'3, Thor is 6'6). When John Byrne wrote Reed saying "superman is perhaps the most powerful hero in both worlds and now he is under the thrall of Galactus"....or something to that effect....storywise it made sense...because by then it made the "Herald of Galactus Superman" that much more of a threat. Hiw stupid would it have sounded if John Byrne wrote Reed saying something like..."Superman, the most powerful hero in both our worlds next to Thor, Hulk, Martian Manhunter, etc." Silly, right? Of course.


Or Dan Jurgens thinks Superman is more powerful than Thor. Which he has already confirmed in interviews?


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abhijit





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I think of Superman as physically superior, but Thor has a host of EP and mystical powers so that it is difficult to say if Superman is overall more powerful.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        But its pretty specifically stated by Reed under Jurgens.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Its not fan speculation.



    Quote:
    Is still a not-cannon story. In another story Batman states that Hyde is powerful enough to push Superman into space and Venom has beaten him up so I wouldn't count that much on those kind of story. That said I agree that Superman has the edge on strenght and durability and Thor has the advantage in magic.
    That said it depends on the writer how much Supes can be affected by magic. Sometime a mere spell can take him down easely, other times he can fight powerful beings which use magic and stand his ground or even win.


These arent non canon though. Marvel has acknowledged Amalgam universe as one of the official realities in marvel multiverse.

Superman will always be showed as favorite against Thor though. As he has already been shown three times.


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abhijit





    Quote:
    With respect, this is pretty lazy analysis. Venom beat Superman too...


And Cap beat up hulk. Outliers happen all the time.


    Quote:
    Not to mention all sorts of characters can be the most powerful in a given story. Just how it is.


Not when the other character is straight up mentioned in the story. And the writer has himself stated that Superman is more powerful than Thor.

Remind us the times Thor has been stated as most powerful being on two earths?


    Quote:
    JLA/Avengers probably got close to being right with the two having a slug out. Superman barely outlasts Thor in a straight fight, but one could argue Thor did not use many other powers either.


Thats not what happened. Superman didnt win a war of attrition. He straight up defeated Thor and was winded. Thats it.


    Quote:
    I see no reason based on both continuities that either are much stronger or weaker than the other. Particularly when all of their pasts are taking together. Or at least what is considered cannon for Superman.


Except no? Superman is much stronger than Thor umder most portrayls these days.



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HMB3




...to say that three favorable appearances suggests that Superman will "always" be showed as superior against Thor, especially since both Jurgens and Buseik are Superman advocates and were given carte blanche to publish their views as such. If a pro-Thor writer were given similar liberties, I wonder if you would argue to the veracity of the published stories as many others are doing now. Sadly, you are probably right, but not for the reasons you think. As DC's flagship character (IMO more so than Batman), I doubt that we will ever see Superman lose another battle to any Marvel character, even one whose power set exploits one of Superman's known weaknesses.


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Oliva


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,607



    Quote:
    Recently its a quite a raging debate whether JLA/Avengers is the only comparison between these two and I thought I should put all of the other meetings or comparison between Superman and Thor here.



    Quote:
    Unlimited Access 3:



    Quote:
    JLA is fighting Avengers, so Access brings one hero who can fix all of that mess. Its electric Superman of course.


How could Electric Superman be superior to one that control, manipulate and absorb Electricity on a ridiculous vast level?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/132322/2547506-thorvsblackbolt03.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_dios_relampago_2.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_dios_relampago_4.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_1000000_relampagos2.jpg

It's Super Natural:

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_relampagos_1.jpg

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_asgardianos_2.jpg

There's not even a is point of comparison- that is, if you want to be just and fair about the whole thing...





    Quote:

    Superman/Fantastic Four:






    Quote:
    Reed Richards says that Superman is perhaps the most powerful hero on both earths and Thor is explicitly name dropped by Franklin Richards as well.



    Quote:
    There are other indirect comparisons as well but I think that puts Superman ahead of Thor in their encounters by quite a bit.



    Quote:
    Thoughts?


Here's the thing, Marvel acknowledges that Superman is the single and greatest most popular Super-Hero there is (although things are rapidly changing indeed with the exposure of other Super-Heroes). They wish they have a character on that level because they think that they would make a lot money because of it. Moreover, they're sincerely enamored with Superman, or anything that reminds him of him, because they were personally brought up reading his comics (ask Busiek who said that Superman is the greatest Super-Hero of all time: past, present and future- and they say that we're the fanboys!!!). That's why it's extraordinarily difficult for Thor to defeat the Hulk; regardless of Thor's powers, and skills (when Thor has defeated the likes of Galactus, Ego, Glory, etc., and the Hulk has been defeated by the likes of Black Bolt, Captain America, Iron Man, Valkyrie, Batman, etc.). Yet, a Superman clone in Hyperion can easily defeat the Hulk, and another Superman Clone in Sentry can stop a Sky-Lord's weapon in Mjolnir (Odin created this weapon and imbued it with his powers) easily with his mind (psionics); when that same hammer can cause great pain to the likes of Thanos, Galactus and Surtur. Don't look for logic, because when it comes to Politics there is none. You just follow their behavioral pattern and you can easily predict what they will do..

Do you truly and honestly believe that a blow by a Mystical weapon that can actually hurt Galactus in such a way, could be easily stopped by Sentry's psionics? By the hand of Superman w/o feeling any effect? And that he's vulnerable to Magic? All this is way beyond laughable, but yet here we are...

http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_Galactus.jpg

Remember: These people who run comics, they don't think the way the public think- they think POLITICALLY!! To then EVERYTHING is about politics!! That's why Jane Thor has Thor's hammer and his name as well.. Got it?!!!


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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,603


Okay, Thor can do the God Blast, a blast powerful enough to send Galactus running. Could Superman send Galactus running with ONE attack?


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bouken red




...as probably the most powerful hero in both worlds...not Superman with the power cosmic. That's why Superman as a herald of galactus is that much more scary because superman is already one of the most powerful if not the most powerful hero...plus the power cosmic...game over.


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bouken red




...Dan Jurgens picked Thor to beat Superman. The diehard Superman fan interviewer, clearly distraught by his answer, tried to ask him a leading follow up question by asking him "thor will win despite Superman being much stronger"(paraphrasing, not an exact quote, but essentially the same), to which Dan Jurgens just laughed and said "yeah, yeah", no doubt feeling sorry for the poor Superman fan. That's the interview you were referring to.

About All Access...nope. it did not establish that Superman can beat both the JLA and Avengers teams. Whatever gave you that idea? He just snapped them out of their mental funk with that electric jolt...nothing more, nothing less.


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abhijit





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Recently its a quite a raging debate whether JLA/Avengers is the only comparison between these two and I thought I should put all of the other meetings or comparison between Superman and Thor here.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Unlimited Access 3:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          JLA is fighting Avengers, so Access brings one hero who can fix all of that mess. Its electric Superman of course.



    Quote:
    How could Electric Superman be superior to one that control, manipulate and absorb Electricity on a ridiculous vast level?



    Quote:
    http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/132322/2547506-thorvsblackbolt03.jpg



    Quote:
    http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_dios_relampago_2.jpg



    Quote:
    http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_dios_relampago_4.jpg



    Quote:
    http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_1000000_relampagos2.jpg



    Quote:
    It's Super Natural:



    Quote:
    http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_relampagos_1.jpg



    Quote:
    http://www.universomarvel.com.aq/imagen.php?img=Thor/Thor_asgardianos_2.jpg



    Quote:
    There's not even a is point of comparison- that is, if you want to be just and fair about the whole thing...


If you want a feat war, I can do that too. Energy Superman was a vastly better energy manipulator of all kinds than Thor.


    Quote:


      Quote:

        Quote:

        Superman/Fantastic Four:

        Quote:


          Quote:

            Quote:
            Reed Richards says that Superman is perhaps the most powerful hero on both earths and Thor is explicitly name dropped by Franklin Richards as well.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              There are other indirect comparisons as well but I think that puts Superman ahead of Thor in their encounters by quite a bit.

              Quote:

                Quote:
                Thoughts?



    Quote:
    Here's the thing, Marvel acknowledges that Superman is the single and greatest most popular Super-Hero there is (although things are rapidly changing indeed with the exposure of other Super-Heroes). They wish they have a character on that level because they think that they would make a lot money because of it. Moreover, they're sincerely enamored with Superman, or anything that reminds him of him, because they were personally brought up reading his comics (ask Busiek who said that Superman is the greatest Super-Hero of all time: past, present and future- and they say that we're the fanboys!!!). That's why it's extraordinarily difficult for Thor to defeat the Hulk; regardless of Thor's powers, and skills (when Thor has defeated the likes of Galactus, Ego, Glory, etc., and the Hulk has been defeated by the likes of Black Bolt, Captain America, Iron Man, Valkyrie, Batman, etc.). Yet, a Superman clone in Hyperion can easily defeat the Hulk, and another Superman Clone in Sentry can stop a Sky-Lord's weapon in Mjolnir (Odin created this weapon and imbued it with his powers) easily with his mind (psionics); when that same hammer can cause great pain to the likes of Thanos, Galactus and Surtur. Don't look for logic, because when it comes to Politics there is none. You just follow their behavioral pattern and you can easily predict what they will do..


We can look it that way or we can simply see it as how it is written i.e. Superman is written as more powerful/stronger than Thor most of the times.


    Quote:
    Do you truly and honestly believe that a blow by a Mystical weapon that can actually hurt Galactus in such a way, could be easily stopped by Sentry's psionics? By the hand of Superman w/o feeling any effect? And that he's vulnerable to Magic? All this is way beyond laughable, but yet here we are...


Yes. By that token, Superman has actually punched holes in the bodies of several universal beings and he should have killed Thor in one punch by that level of strength showings.



    Quote:
    Remember: These people who run comics, they don't think the way the public think- they think POLITICALLY!! To then EVERYTHING is about politics!! That's why Jane Thor has Thor's hammer and his name as well.. Got it?!!!


Heh, you almost sound bitter. I wonder why.


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abhijit





    Quote:
    ...Dan Jurgens picked Thor to beat Superman. The diehard Superman fan interviewer, clearly distraught by his answer, tried to ask him a leading follow up question by asking him "thor will win despite Superman being much stronger"(paraphrasing, not an exact quote, but essentially the same), to which Dan Jurgens just laughed and said "yeah, yeah", no doubt feeling sorry for the poor Superman fan. That's the interview you were referring to.


That's not how it went if you want to go through interview again.


    Quote:
    RC: What do you think of the idea of Superman defeating Thor, which we recently saw in JLA/Avengers?

    Superman vs. Thor
    DAN JURGENS: No . . . not even possible. Even if you bring back Thor to his basic self, the Thor of issue one of my run, he would beat Superman.

    RC: Why�s that?

    DAN JURGENS: Magic.

    RC: The "magic weakness" idea for Superman?

    DAN JURGENS: Yep.

    RC: In the books these days, the "magic weakness" is almost never there.

    DAN JURGENS: I know. I know. Straight up? Superman is more powerful, but because of the magic weakness . . . but because of the magic component, Thor wins.

    RC: In your opinion, is Superman is a lot more powerful than Thor?

    DAN JURGENS: Yeah.


Dan himself said that Superman is straight up more powerful than Thor and not out of some mysterious pity on a Superman fan. The said fan didn't say that Superman is stronger too.

The Superman/FF comic is from 1999 and the interview was in 2004 BTW.


    Quote:
    About All Access...nope. it did not establish that Superman can beat both the JLA and Avengers teams. Whatever gave you that idea? He just snapped them out of their mental funk with that electric jolt...nothing more, nothing less.


Heh, seems like a wrong move to bring a hero in when he couldn't deal with what was going on.

And Access didn't bring Superman to shock the teams.


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abhijit





    Quote:
    Okay, Thor can do the God Blast, a blast powerful enough to send Galactus running. Could Superman send Galactus running with ONE attack?


Superman has shattered soulfire darkseid in half who just defeated The Source himself. Punched a hole in Emperor Joker and oneshot defeated multiversal death.

Can Thor do any of that?


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abhijit





    Quote:
    ...to say that three favorable appearances suggests that Superman will "always" be showed as superior against Thor, especially since both Jurgens and Buseik are Superman advocates and were given carte blanche to publish their views as such. If a pro-Thor writer were given similar liberties, I wonder if you would argue to the veracity of the published stories as many others are doing now. Sadly, you are probably right, but not for the reasons you think. As DC's flagship character (IMO more so than Batman), I doubt that we will ever see Superman lose another battle to any Marvel character, even one whose power set exploits one of Superman's known weaknesses.


Three favorable appearances between three different writers? Yes, that's too much of a proof in Superman's favor.

And not exactly in comparison to Superman only. Thor struggled against Kalibak and needed J'onn to help him to defeat him.

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In fact Kalibak shrugged off a sucker attack from Mjolnir to the back of the head and manhandled Thor just a page later.

Superman though?

Free Image Hosting Free Image Hosting Free Image Hosting Free Image Hosting

Not even a contest.


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Marv


Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
Posts: 5,697


in the other crossover, at first Thor fought Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter and held his own. he floors superman with an hammer toss, then takes a double punch from Supes and Manhunter, then floors manhunter and both him and supes are not seen again until the end, and then he fights Wonder woman.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LcnC9Go4bjY/VTDx0kZuS5I/AAAAAAAKkOw/at0zNLOEcOI/s1600/p5_43%2Bcopy.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dgOo4bQB4us/VTDx2LtKzeI/AAAAAAAKkPA/prYjRw1IEPM/s1600/p5_44%2Bcopy.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FQ6HcJTPSo0/VTDx2Q8M8jI/AAAAAAAKkPE/ywuGC5NtU68/s1600/p5_45%2Bcopy.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PoeLnASXmfg/VTDyYowlijI/AAAAAAAKkVM/kOL8_MAjRtw/s1600/p6_5.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AvOUhxa96ho/VTDyXhDknmI/AAAAAAAKkU8/0hbahgn-KsI/s1600/p6_6%2Bcopy.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R60yZebiICE/VTDyZpT2TuI/AAAAAAAKkVU/d2CfY4FoRno/s1600/p6_8%2Bcopy.jpg

the fight was interrupted by Wanda chaos magic with no one truly koed, but Thor fought equally with arguably the 3 strongest fighters on the other team.

in the second fight Supes "barely" managed a takedown of Thor, which seems to give him an edge in strenght apparently. But in this fight Thor had underestimanted the kryptonian, walked into his heat vision and got distracted by his stopping mjolnir.

https://jeremiahkleckner.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/superman-vs-thor001-copy-e1432566310114.jpg?w=642&h=300

but later on, he has "taken the measure" of the kryptonian, so the fight might go differently because supes had "barely" won before

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-07fcc06eb7589be07f06fa8c875d5186
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-706ab81478a7cf33454acc611fc04aed

we don't have a rematch, but we do have Supes feeling "the power of thor" when the thundergod gives him the hammer thanks to the failsafe of it being a "special occasion", and he feels the power of Thor as being something he "never felt" despite his being pretty powerful himself.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8226ce46dce2adf18452e6a2c925a207
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-99c0116cc699c7de3e568b908d09d085-c
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ddbcbc4e3988a117c542bb8d556965f0

considering that in the Access fight Superman doesn't do anything more than zapping all of them, and he is made somehow of elettricity, i don't see how this gives him any kind of advantage over Thor. He managed to free everyone from mind control, but if he had had to fight everyone at the same time i don't see how he could have succeded.

As for KAlibak being as strong as the Hulk in the narration, it's a trope for enemies to be called out as being as strong as a rival of the hero. Thor called Agger Minotaur form "as strong as the Hulk" before defeating him and Ulik combined in one hit, and Ulik called himself as strong as a Thor before being manhandled by the Maestro; Superman called BOTH Hulk and Thor "the strongest he ever faced". I think that those comments are usually meant ot say the threat is in the same class as the hero mentioned, but on an average, not at peak. Thor needing help from Manhunter doesn't mean he couldn't have beaten Kalibak on his own, just like it didnt mean that Superman couldn't have when manhunter helped him against thor himself.

I Can give a very righteous Supes a slight edge in strenght as i would give a very pissed off Hulk over Thor, but only if the thundergod is not giving his all, and i think the strenght differential is not that large even in such an occasion, they are still in the same range of power, and thor could match them if he used his magical forms of amping be they berseker rage or magic belt. And in pure power, very few can match the god of Thunder, who has feats on cosmic scales and toppled skyfathers and cosmic entities in his best feats. So i think overall Supes edges Thor in phisical aspects, but thor edges Supes in power on an average, and peak versions of both could probably one shot an average portrayal of the other. Superman has a lot more weaknesses that can be exploited though, be them Red Sun, Kryptonite, Magic, all things mjolnir could find a way to use if Thor required it to. Save Superman getting the Worldserpent Venom or a Fang of his on his hand i don't see him having the same degree of use of a trump card, it's less likely.


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HMB3




Three different, pro-Superman writers. If I were writing a conflict between fictional characters, of which I had an obvious bias towards one, and if I were allowed, then I too would write my favored character to be superior to the other. Additionally, your examples aren't as irrefutable as you like, because Superman has been punked by far less than Kalibak, Thor, etc. as well throughout his published history. Ergo, nothing you have posted thus far is irrefutable proof of Superman's superiority.

Now I do regard Superman as physically superior to Thor - perhaps not by the margin you do, but superior nonetheless. What I take umbrage to is your unequivocal declaration that Superman is simply superior to Thor. Thor is a physical being imbued with divine magic. In fact, much of his arsenal relies on that very magic. Superman had his clock cleaned by Captain Marvel, who stated that he was able to do so because of Superman's vulnerability to magic. Thor should be able to replicate said feat by virtue of who he is. In other words, Thor has a distinct advantage in at least one aspect, and his martial prowess should provide him with another. The writers you cite as your proof to the contrary don't seem overly interested in the big picture, and unless I'm mistaken, it seems neither do you.


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abhijit





    Quote:
    Three different, pro-Superman writers. If I were writing a conflict between fictional characters, of which I had an obvious bias towards one, and if I were allowed, then I too would write my favored character to be superior to the other. Additionally, your examples aren't as irrefutable as you like, because Superman has been punked by far less than Kalibak, Thor, etc. as well throughout his published history. Ergo, nothing you have posted thus far is irrefutable proof of Superman's superiority.


So all three are biased towards Superman despite Jurgens saying Thor will beat Superman?

Seems like a lot of excuses to me.


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    Now I do regard Superman as physically superior to Thor - perhaps not by the margin you do, but superior nonetheless. What I take umbrage to is your unequivocal declaration that Superman is simply superior to Thor. Thor is a physical being imbued with divine magic. In fact, much of his arsenal relies on that very magic. Superman had his clock cleaned by Captain Marvel, who stated that he was able to do so because of Superman's vulnerability to magic. Thor should be able to replicate said feat by virtue of who he is. In other words, Thor has a distinct advantage in at least one aspect, and his martial prowess should provide him with another. The writers you cite as your proof to the contrary don't seem overly interested in the big picture, and unless I'm mistaken, it seems neither do you.


Cap has never beaten Superman much less cleaned his clock. And if Thor beats Superman due to magic weakness, it'd be due to Superman's own vulnerability not due to Thor's powers.


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abhijit





    Quote:
    in the other crossover, at first Thor fought Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter and held his own. he floors superman with an hammer toss, then takes a double punch from Supes and Manhunter, then floors manhunter and both him and supes are not seen again until the end, and then he fights Wonder woman.


Eh? Here is the whole fight from start to finish.

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Are you suggesting Thor beat both Superman and J'onn? Because they are shown fighting others when Wanda blasts everybody.





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    the fight was interrupted by Wanda chaos magic with no one truly koed, but Thor fought equally with arguably the 3 strongest fighters on the other team.


Eh, that never happened to begin with. It was a short and inconclusive fight.



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    in the second fight Supes "barely" managed a takedown of Thor, which seems to give him an edge in strenght apparently. But in this fight Thor had underestimanted the kryptonian, walked into his heat vision and got distracted by his stopping mjolnir.


That's a rather colorful interpretation of events. Mind telling me how Thor got distracted?



    Quote:
    but later on, he has "taken the measure" of the kryptonian, so the fight might go differently because supes had "barely" won before





Thor is a sore loser then?


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    we don't have a rematch, but we do have Supes feeling "the power of thor" when the thundergod gives him the hammer thanks to the failsafe of it being a "special occasion", and he feels the power of Thor as being something he "never felt" despite his being pretty powerful himself.






Yeah, Thor got some lip service. Just like Captain Marvel and Martian Manhunter do.

All three gets talked up a lot, Superman walks the walk.


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    considering that in the Access fight Superman doesn't do anything more than zapping all of them, and he is made somehow of elettricity, i don't see how this gives him any kind of advantage over Thor. He managed to free everyone from mind control, but if he had had to fight everyone at the same time i don't see how he could have succeded.


So the writer randomly brought out a hero who couldn't stop them..... to stop them?

That doesn't makes any sense.


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    As for KAlibak being as strong as the Hulk in the narration, it's a trope for enemies to be called out as being as strong as a rival of the hero. Thor called Agger Minotaur form "as strong as the Hulk" before defeating him and Ulik combined in one hit, and Ulik called himself as strong as a Thor before being manhandled by the Maestro; Superman called BOTH Hulk and Thor "the strongest he ever faced". I think that those comments are usually meant ot say the threat is in the same class as the hero mentioned, but on an average, not at peak. Thor needing help from Manhunter doesn't mean he couldn't have beaten Kalibak on his own, just like it didnt mean that Superman couldn't have when manhunter helped him against thor himself.


But Thor doesn't beats Kalibak on his own, Superman defeated Thor on his own.


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    I Can give a very righteous Supes a slight edge in strenght as i would give a very pissed off Hulk over Thor, but only if the thundergod is not giving his all, and i think the strenght differential is not that large even in such an occasion, they are still in the same range of power, and thor could match them if he used his magical forms of amping be they berseker rage or magic belt. And in pure power, very few can match the god of Thunder, who has feats on cosmic scales and toppled skyfathers and cosmic entities in his best feats. So i think overall Supes edges Thor in phisical aspects, but thor edges Supes in power on an average, and peak versions of both could probably one shot an average portrayal of the other. Superman has a lot more weaknesses that can be exploited though, be them Red Sun, Kryptonite, Magic, all things mjolnir could find a way to use if Thor required it to. Save Superman getting the Worldserpent Venom or a Fang of his on his hand i don't see him having the same degree of use of a trump card, it's less likely.


If you think Thor has toppled skyfathers and whatnot, wait till you see what Superman has done.

Superman doesn't needs a weakness to beat the tar out of Thor. He already did it with his fists.


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Primetime




Quite simple. Being the hero called to stop two teams from fighting has nothing to do with how he compares powerwise with one member of one of those teams. This, along with that particular Superman being totally different powerwise than his normal self. Plus, you are ignoring that the inclusion of the world "perhaps" is clearly used for the purposes of uncertainty.

If we make such reaches with regard to what we view as implications, then we have to include the fact that Superman and Captain America go after each other to fight head to head and actually clash together. Does that imply that Captain America is a physical challenge for Superman? Cap says that he had beaten dozens like Superman. What can we extrapolate from that?

Superman states that he "barely" beat Thor and Thor says that he had Superman's measure and would win a rematch. If we are to take such statements as you do, then we should include that as Thor being shown above Superman. Correct?


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Primetime





    Quote:

      Quote:
      With respect, this is pretty lazy analysis. Venom beat Superman too...



    Quote:
    And Cap beat up hulk. Outliers happen all the time.



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      Quote:
      Not to mention all sorts of characters can be the most powerful in a given story. Just how it is.



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    Not when the other character is straight up mentioned in the story. And the writer has himself stated that Superman is more powerful than Thor.


When has Jurgens stated this other than the one interview where he later says that he was joking?


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    Remind us the times Thor has been stated as most powerful being on two earths?


Of course Reed doesn't say that. He says "perhaps". You can't disregard that caveat. Superman is the co-star of the book and therefore is being pumped up. Nowhere in the crossover with Silver Surfer is there any implication of him being above Surfer. If anything the opposite since he is impressed by what Surfer does. If we extrapolate from that as you do, then that would seem to put Surfer above Superman.


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      Quote:
      JLA/Avengers probably got close to being right with the two having a slug out. Superman barely outlasts Thor in a straight fight, but one could argue Thor did not use many other powers either.



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    Thats not what happened. Superman didnt win a war of attrition. He straight up defeated Thor and was winded. Thats it.


He barely defeats Thor (he confirms this himself) and is significantly weakened in the process. Saying that he is merely "winded" is not being honest.


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      I see no reason based on both continuities that either are much stronger or weaker than the other. Particularly when all of their pasts are taking together. Or at least what is considered cannon for Superman.



    Quote:
    Except no? Superman is much stronger than Thor umder most portrayls these days.


Not much.




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Primetime




Lip service is the bases for most of your conclusions in this thread. You can't cry "lip service" for other characters and then call it proof for Superman.


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Primetime




You know that he also agreed that Superman was a million times more powerful than Thor and later said on the Thor board that he was joking. If you go to the interview, RC edits and links to where Jurgens corrected his statement on the Thor board, though apparently the link no longer works.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 17,011



    Quote:

      Quote:
      With respect, this is pretty lazy analysis. Venom beat Superman too...



    Quote:
    And Cap beat up hulk. Outliers happen all the time.


Not sure I remember that, but ok. The point is that outliers are not what we focus on. A snake beat Hulk too.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Not to mention all sorts of characters can be the most powerful in a given story. Just how it is.



    Quote:
    Not when the other character is straight up mentioned in the story. And the writer has himself stated that Superman is more powerful than Thor.


Not really. The second scan in particular was just comparing physical stature. Nothing more is made of it. Reed even says Perhaps.

And that writer did not say that if you read more of what he was saying. And even if Superman is more powerful it is just one person's opinion.

Many people have them. Nor is it saying that Superman cannot defeat Thor.


    Quote:
    Remind us the times Thor has been stated as most powerful being on two earths?


Can do it for nine realms. I am not sure where you are getting this most powerful on two Earth's thing. Placing all your eggs in the baskets you are makes no sense based on the scans you are presenting.

Silver Surfer one shot Orion. And Superman acted very impressed by Surfer's power when they faced off against Mxy. Does that mean Surfer is more powerful and since Thor beat him he is more so.

Your logic is bad.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      JLA/Avengers probably got close to being right with the two having a slug out. Superman barely outlasts Thor in a straight fight, but one could argue Thor did not use many other powers either.



    Quote:
    Thats not what happened. Superman didnt win a war of attrition. He straight up defeated Thor and was winded. Thats it.


I do not believe you read the comic at all now. They fought over several books. The two going tit for tat for quite a while.

Superman did knock Thor out. But at the end he was barely on his feet, said Thor was the single toughest opponent he has ever fought and then was readily taken out by the rest of the team. That would not do well against Superman normally. Or at least struggle.

Your analysis is not great at all.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I see no reason based on both continuities that either are much stronger or weaker than the other. Particularly when all of their pasts are taking together. Or at least what is considered cannon for Superman.



    Quote:
    Except no? Superman is much stronger than Thor umder most portrayls these days.


Prove it.






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