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G.Puke





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Braugi




at least a green Hulk vs. most versions of the MOS, especially assuming that someone has read a substantial portion of both continuities and isn't cherry picking for one and not the other. Would he be the favorite, I could see people argue either side, but I'd say no, not generally, save a few matchups (WWH, War, Worldbreaker vs. Byrne Superman for instance)...

But a fight between the Hulk and Superman is a tough fight that either could win. I also think Superman would be the favorite against the MU Hercules, but Hercules could certainly pull the win...


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Braugi




30+ years ago, they had to make everyone 'gamma powered' and it got annoying...so they retconned Sasquatch being gamma powered, and haven't mentioned Rhino's gamma power boost in decades...kept Abomination, Rick Jones Hulk (who hasn't been seen in a long time though, thankfully), Shulk, and Doc Samson, but tried to keep Hulk not 'just another gamma powered strong guy'...but they've done it again over the past decade, and its kind of annoying...

Maybe I'm just too old and I'm now a 'get off my lawn' type of guy, but I also don't want them to suddenly recreate Caps shield and end up with multiple suits of armor made out of the same material, or whatever...


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MysteryMan


Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 3,229


nt


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831



I feel the same way. Aside from Bruce Banner as the Hulk, I'm ok with Jen as She-Hulk. But beyond that, do we really need a Red Hulk, Doc Samson and the others? No. Too many Hulks.

Do we really need TWO sons of Wolverine with similar powers? Do we really need a literal clone who is a girl?! No, we don't. Too many Wolverines.

Too many characters who are "clones" of Jean Grey (not actual clones but close enough IMO). Aside from Jean we have Rachel Summers and...the evil version too (Dark Phoenix). And didn't Jean end up an actual clone at some point? Too many Jean Grey's.

Then we have Superman. Ok, I'm cool with that. But then there's Superboy and Supergirl. Ok, fine. Ah, but then we have General Zod, Non, Faora and Bizarro. Fine, they are part of Superman's rogues gallery. But then we have Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Kenan Kong, Krypto and Lana Lang as Superwoman. Really? Do we really need those extras? No. Too many Supermen.

I'd get rid of Eradicator (or alter his powers and costume at least), kill off Kenan Kong, Krypto and strip Superwoman's powers from her. Sorry, but Lana Lang is better off as just a regular human as she has been for decades not as a Super-Hero.

Aside from Hal, we have Alan Scott who started it all. But then we have John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Simon Baz, Jessica Cruz and Kyle the Alley Rat. Do we really need so many Earth humans as Green Lanterns? No, we don't. Yes, I am fully aware each of the characters I mentioned have their respective fan bases, but so many GL's from Earth (if you think about it) is pretty ridiculous. Too many human Green Lanterns.

And this is how I would go about fixing things. I'd restore Alan Scott to the way he was before the New 52 reboot. I'd keep Hal as the main Green Lantern. John Stewart would be Hal's back up and maybe I'd keep him as the leader of the GLC, he's good at that. Guy would become a Vuldarian again and be "The Warrior" as he was a far more unique character that way. Simon and Jessica would not be a GL at all. As for Kyle, I'd make him Ion again but no more powerful than an ordinary GL.

There. Problem solved.

And the list goes on and on...

Too many "clones" really ruins any unique take on the original IMO.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,932



    Quote:
    30+ years ago, they had to make everyone 'gamma powered' and it got annoying...so they retconned Sasquatch being gamma powered, and haven't mentioned Rhino's gamma power boost in decades...kept Abomination, Rick Jones Hulk (who hasn't been seen in a long time though, thankfully), Shulk, and Doc Samson, but tried to keep Hulk not 'just another gamma powered strong guy'...but they've done it again over the past decade, and its kind of annoying...



    Quote:
    Maybe I'm just too old and I'm now a 'get off my lawn' type of guy, but I also don't want them to suddenly recreate Caps shield and end up with multiple suits of armor made out of the same material, or whatever...


No, I have noticed it too. Although, for some characters I thought it was fine. She Hulk and Doc Samson for instance were fine with me. Same with some of the Hulk rogues.

But with too many Hulks it erodes the uniqueness of the actual character. Having a few guys that are similar is one thing, so long as they are side characters or potentially interesting but it goes too far.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,405




    Quote:
    http://www.inverse.com/article/31525-hulk-superman-amadeus-greg-pak-gene-luen-yang-podcast?utm_campaign=organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_campaign=promoted



You have to admire the reasoning:

"Pak isn’t being biased; he wrote Clark Kent and Superman during his three-year run on DC’s Action Comics."

That definitely make him incapable of being biased... For sure... :/

But seriously, how does it always come down to strength only when Hulk is in a fight? I can see so many much more important variables to consider in and yet, let's just pretend they do not exist because Hulk is all about strength...

You got to love comics...




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UName


Member Since: Tue Mar 10, 2015
Posts: 900




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Captainidiot


Member Since: Tue Nov 18, 2014
Posts: 416


In the new avengers where the illuminati faced off on alt universe JLA when they were blowing up earths before secret wars. That superman pastiche (I dont remember his name) put our 616 hulk down pretty easily. If anything, I thought it was too easy. But the real deal would certainly beat the copy as superman always punches even above his own considerable weight.

But Thor could beat either one of them. Sorry. Force of habit.


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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,177


To be fair everyone's guilty of this.  Bring up Supes vs Thor or Supes vs Surfer and Supes fans will trump up reflex speed while downplaying versatility and EP.



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timgagnonorg@gmail.com


Member Since: Fri Jun 24, 2016
Posts: 82


In comics "Strength" trumps everything. I'm 194 lbs but gimme a baseball bat and I'm pretty sure that everyone here knows that I could take down a Powerlifter pretty easily with one or maybe two solid hits. Give an elite class warrior the same bat and it's even easier. Heck give a toddler a hammer and let him smack you on the head with it...anybody think their strength advantage over the toddler will suffice? Anybody want to line up for that test? I didn't think so.

It's not Hulk's dynamic Strength that makes him nearly unbeatable. His Dynamic Strength is matched by Dynamic Durability and Dynamic Healing. That is the key IMO. When you say, "Hulk is the Strongest there is" I say, "So what? Strength isn't everything."  But when you combine that with his other attributes I say ok - that makes better sense.



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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831



Yes, Hulk would beat Kenan Kong's Superman, I agree with those comments.

No, Hulk would not beat Clark's Superman. I agree with the reasoning there as well. \:\-\)

Plus, Superman has already beaten Hulk.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831



Just because Pak wrote Superman doesn't mean he's not biased. Everyone, no matter how partial they are or try to be, has some bias in them. Everyone has their favorite characters or likes this character better than that character.

And if Pak says Hulk can beat Superman, he obviously likes Hulk more. Thus, he's biased.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831




    Quote:
    In comics "Strength" trumps everything. I'm 194 lbs but gimme a baseball bat and I'm pretty sure that everyone here knows that I could take down a Powerlifter pretty easily with one or maybe two solid hits. Give an elite class warrior the same bat and it's even easier. Heck give a toddler a hammer and let him smack you on the head with it...anybody think their strength advantage over the toddler will suffice? Anybody want to line up for that test? I didn't think so.

    It's not Hulk's dynamic Strength that makes him nearly unbeatable. His Dynamic Strength is matched by Dynamic Durability and Dynamic Healing. That is the key IMO. When you say, "Hulk is the Strongest there is" I say, "So what? Strength isn't everything."  But when you combine that with his other attributes I say ok - that makes better sense.


I respectfully disagree. What good is dynamic strength and healing if Hulk is not allowed to use it? Especially if Superman speed blitzes him or throws him in orbit. Plus, Superman already beat Hulk. Professor Hulk maybe, but even he was capable of Dynamic strength. Then in another crossover, Superman did very well against a Savage Hulk who didn't win that fight either. So much for strength trumping everything. ;\-\)





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,932



    Quote:
    http://www.inverse.com/article/31525-hulk-superman-amadeus-greg-pak-gene-luen-yang-podcast?utm_campaign=organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_campaign=promoted


just the fact that it can go either way. Many would favor Superman more strongly over Hulk. And there is some good reason. However, it would be a slug out.

That said, I am not shocked that Pak would pick Hulk in a fight though.




Look Raist bunnies...
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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,619



    Quote:

    Just because Pak wrote Superman doesn't mean he's not biased. Everyone, no matter how partial they are or try to be, has some bias in them. Everyone has their favorite characters or likes this character better than that character.



    Quote:
    And if Pak says Hulk can beat Superman, he obviously likes Hulk more. Thus, he's biased.


That's circular reasoning. If Pak said Superman can beat Hulk, does he obviously like Superman more and thus he's biased in that direction? It is possible to be biased and still maintain balance. It's not always easy, but it's certainly possible, so bias in itself isn't an indication of being wrong. One of my favorite characters is Cyclops, well, he was before Marvel ruined him. I may be biased toward Cyclops but I'm not going to say he can beat either Hulk or Superman. That said, I do think Pak has displayed Hulk fanboy tendencies to the point that his views of the Hulk are a significant departure from the views of most people, other Hulk fanboys being the exception.

That's all to say, Pak is biased but that doesn't mean he's wrong. But I think he is wrong in this case. Hulk CAN beat Superman, but he's not going to take a majority of wins in most incarnations.




THE POWER OF EMPATHY IN THE MCU:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy1zKcddbNk
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timgagnonorg@gmail.com


Member Since: Fri Jun 24, 2016
Posts: 82


I think you missed my point. I think "Strength" is NOT everything. Strength ALONE is not the end all and be all as some suggest. Just because Hulk can get stronger doesn't give him an auto win. Characters like Superman and Thor bring much more to the table then just strength. Things like Speed, Martial Skills and especially, Energy Projection that Strength simply can't compare with. But in comics, Hulk's strength somehow gives him the edge in many people's minds.

My point is, without the Dynamic Healing and Durability IN ADDITION to the Dynamic Strength, the Hulk's Strength alone would never be enough to give him a chance against foes like Thor/Superman/Silver Surfer etc.


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Vidar


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,541


NT


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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,564


Of course Hulk CAN beat Superman.


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Bk Ray

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,722



IMO it's a minority, same as Thor.

There also seems to be an emphasis that they are not talking about Clark.





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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,405




    Quote:
    To be fair everyone's guilty of this.  Bring up Supes vs Thor or Supes vs Surfer and Supes fans will trump up reflex speed while downplaying versatility and EP.


That is true. However, I can see how a speed advantage can impact everything in a fight in a big way. It makes sense. A strength advantage tho? Not so much.




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,831




    Quote:

    IMO it's a minority, same as Thor.



    Quote:
    There also seems to be an emphasis that they are not talking about Clark.


Actually, they did talk about Clark, but they also were talking about Kenan Kong too.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Isosceles


Member Since: Wed Jul 22, 2009
Posts: 1,352




    Quote:

    I feel the same way. Aside from Bruce Banner as the Hulk, I'm ok with Jen as She-Hulk. But beyond that, do we really need a Red Hulk, Doc Samson and the others? No. Too many Hulks.



    Quote:
    Do we really need TWO sons of Wolverine with similar powers? Do we really need a literal clone who is a girl?! No, we don't. Too many Wolverines.



    Quote:
    Too many characters who are "clones" of Jean Grey (not actual clones but close enough IMO). Aside from Jean we have Rachel Summers and...the evil version too (Dark Phoenix). And didn't Jean end up an actual clone at some point? Too many Jean Grey's.



    Quote:
    Then we have Superman. Ok, I'm cool with that. But then there's Superboy and Supergirl. Ok, fine. Ah, but then we have General Zod, Non, Faora and Bizarro. Fine, they are part of Superman's rogues gallery. But then we have Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Kenan Kong, Krypto and Lana Lang as Superwoman. Really? Do we really need those extras? No. Too many Supermen.



    Quote:
    I'd get rid of Eradicator (or alter his powers and costume at least), kill off Kenan Kong, Krypto and strip Superwoman's powers from her. Sorry, but Lana Lang is better off as just a regular human as she has been for decades not as a Super-Hero.



    Quote:
    Aside from Hal, we have Alan Scott who started it all. But then we have John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Simon Baz, Jessica Cruz and Kyle the Alley Rat. Do we really need so many Earth humans as Green Lanterns? No, we don't. Yes, I am fully aware each of the characters I mentioned have their respective fan bases, but so many GL's from Earth (if you think about it) is pretty ridiculous. Too many human Green Lanterns.



    Quote:
    And this is how I would go about fixing things. I'd restore Alan Scott to the way he was before the New 52 reboot. I'd keep Hal as the main Green Lantern. John Stewart would be Hal's back up and maybe I'd keep him as the leader of the GLC, he's good at that. Guy would become a Vuldarian again and be "The Warrior" as he was a far more unique character that way. Simon and Jessica would not be a GL at all. As for Kyle, I'd make him Ion again but no more powerful than an ordinary GL.



    Quote:
    There. Problem solved.



    Quote:
    And the list goes on and on...



    Quote:
    Too many "clones" really ruins any unique take on the original IMO.


I agree with all but the Eradicator (I like Superboy too). The Eradicator is a unique being (Pre-52). Sure he has Superman like powers, but he has more also. The Krypton-man story was one of my favorites, along with its follow up where he took on a "humanoid" form for the first time. It kind of went down hill after the Death of Superman though, but I believe he is a unique "newer-ish" (created after Crisis and there for not connected to Pre-crisis rogues) villian for Superman.




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Braugi




Spider Man is one of my favorite characters, but I don't think he should have won a couple of his big wins, at least not in the way he won them...but at least he was treated as the underdog....


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Braugi




At some points, the derivative characters start to detract....Superman was the last survivor, then there was Supergirl, some villains I get it....but too much, and it crosses a line

I didn't mind the Abomination....I do like that they retconned the Sasquatch thing...for a while it seemed like every new strongman had to be gamma powered....but it happens sporadically...someone opens the door...the Leader, OK when created, Abomination, She Hulk, Rick Jones....hmmm....lets start thinking twice about this, we're getting a lot of gamma guys out there....so it dies down for a few years...then the Leader creates his large group of gamma creations....a few more show up under PAD....a few more years, now all of a sudden, you have A Bomb, multiple Red Hulks, Amadeus Cho Hulk, etc....now you've got ALL those guys still out there, its too much IMO.




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Marv


Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
Posts: 5,667


it's more of a composite thing, where you have to consider all authors and editors equally and try to glean the range that each of them gives to any given character... i can see how in a specific Pak written storyline Hulk could beat one on one Superman, considering how he wrote each of them in his storylines, but there are enough feats and specific conditions in their whole continuity and pubblication history where the opposite would certainly be true as well.

i see them overall as herald peers with peak at teambuster levels, with equal chance overall of having one winning eventually over another.

The scenario where Pak sees Hulk winning after all is purely on a hulk centric battleground, where he is in a peak versions and in a "eventually the strongest one there is" mode, without mentioning versions for Superman at all and assuming that no matter how strong he is, hulk can become stronger by raging. But even then it's mostly if Supes act out of character. He said that he would actually see Superman/Clark as able to defuse the fight by durability and sheer personality, if you read the whole thing.

the main point there is that for Pak if they just punch each other and do nothing else, and Hulk gets angry enough and is prodded to the right degree, he can become stronger than Superman. But then again we have seen Superman become stronger as well, by taking off mental limiters, absorbing blue sun radiation, sundipping, with no specific limit set to his strenght in those occasions, being plot devices purposefully used, not unlike Hulk's rageouts. so i think it has to be taken into account, even against Hulk "strongest there is" shtick...


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atrimus


Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,177


Oh, I agree.  I give Supes a solid 7/10 over Hulk based on equal strength coupled with superior speed.  I just think the argument should be focused on concrete factors like this, versus "Oh, you're just bias."  PAK could very well have a solid analysis for why he think Hulk wins.



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paolo




It is hardly a surprise that Greg Pak self confessed Hulk fan boy thinks Hulk could beat Superman since he thinks the Hulk can beat just about anyone.

My guess is amongst most writers old and past who are neutral on subject would beg to differ.

The fact is if you are talking about either an average version of Hulk over the years v an Average Superman i would say Man of Steel has the edge and if you are taking the most powerful versions say WB Hulk v pre crisis Superman then Supes still takes it.

The most obvious factor is as well as both being extremely close in strength Superman has literally a host of other powers at his disposal and most importantly Super speed, honestly if written properly the Hulk should hardly be able to land a decent hit on him Whilst Superman would be able to pick the Hulk off dozens of times a second.

Also if he really wanted to he could just keep fight at long range.


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Grhulk





    Quote:


      Quote:
      http://www.inverse.com/article/31525-hulk-superman-amadeus-greg-pak-gene-luen-yang-podcast?utm_campaign=organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_campaign=promoted



    Quote:

    You have to admire the reasoning:

    "Pak isn’t being biased; he wrote Clark Kent and Superman during his three-year run on DC’s Action Comics."

    That definitely make him incapable of being biased... For sure... :/

    But seriously, how does it always come down to strength only when Hulk is in a fight? I can see so many much more important variables to consider in and yet, let's just pretend they do not exist because Hulk is all about strength...

    You got to love comics...



So if Pak says that Hulk wins is because he's biased, because he worked much more on the Hulk than Superman....
Why I have a feeling that he would have said the contrary most of the people here would take his word for granted because for the exact reason above ...

You got to love Superman fanboys...



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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,405




    Quote:
    Oh, I agree.  I give Supes a solid 7/10 over Hulk based on equal strength coupled with superior speed.  I just think the argument should be focused on concrete factors like this, versus "Oh, you're just bias."  PAK could very well have a solid analysis for why he think Hulk wins.


My comment about bias wasn't about PAK being biased or not (I do not know for sure, even if I think he is considering a lot of other objective facts). It was a sarcastic comment about the the article's reasoning as to why PAK couldn't be biased. It was a pure logical fallacy.

As for PAK possible "solid analysis", unless he seriously overplay how nice Superman is to the detriment of him getting the job done, I'd be VERY curious to read about it...




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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,405




    Quote:

      Quote:


        Quote:
        http://www.inverse.com/article/31525-hulk-superman-amadeus-greg-pak-gene-luen-yang-podcast?utm_campaign=organic&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=inverse&utm_campaign=promoted

      Quote:

        Quote:

        You have to admire the reasoning:

        "Pak isn’t being biased; he wrote Clark Kent and Superman during his three-year run on DC’s Action Comics."

        That definitely make him incapable of being biased... For sure... :/

        But seriously, how does it always come down to strength only when Hulk is in a fight? I can see so many much more important variables to consider in and yet, let's just pretend they do not exist because Hulk is all about strength...

        You got to love comics...




    Quote:
    So if Pak says that Hulk wins is because he's biased, because he worked much more on the Hulk than Superman....
    Why I have a feeling that he would have said the contrary most of the people here would take his word for granted because for the exact reason above ...



    Quote:
    You got to love Superman fanboys...

Your "feeling" is wrong. 

As far as I'm concerned, no matter who you insert into the ridiculous logical fallacy above as to why PAK can't be biased would have been treated the exact same way. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy.

Having written both character is not a valid argument as to why someone can't be biased. I went to several restaurants, so I can't be biased when I judge their food, right? What kind of absurd logic is this?




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