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Author
motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254


Galactus admits he can't breach the shield around Earth from Secret Empire.


https://s6.postimg.org/vou3i5jsh/Ultimates_2_2016-2017_100-027.jpg

Tiger God manhandles Logos and fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials.

http://postimg.org/image/flhmici99/
http://postimg.org/image/qmcrndai5/
http://postimg.org/image/6t0nunx4d/
http://postimg.org/image/pzduxudm5/

This firmly reestablishes that Galactus is in skyfather range of power.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,071



    Quote:
    Galactus admits he can't breach the shield around Earth from Secret Empire.






    Quote:
    Tiger God manhandles Logos and fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials.






    Quote:
    This firmly reestablishes that Galactus is in skyfather range of power.


To a point but I think you are brushing over a fair bit of context in this. As this issue seems to make fairly clear that the Tiger God thing has more to do with Black Panther's strength of belief than anything else.

I am not a big fan of it but that is what Galactus is reacting to.




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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,658


Was Galactus at his full power levels during that discussion though, or still reduced?


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900



    Quote:
    Galactus admits he can't breach the shield around Earth from Secret Empire.


As I had pointed out, this was already inferred from a previous issue of the Ultimates, so I'm not surprised. Interestingly though, given how effective Blue Marvel, Hyperion, Jane Thor, Spectrum, and Star Brand were against the shield, Marvel has quantified Galactus' power level relative to them. Galactus' limit would indicate he's somewhere around 20-30 times as powerful as an average one of those heroes. Of course there's another instance in which an alternate reality Galactus was downed by over 100 Earth heroes, virtually all of whom perished in the fight. That one is harder to quantify though because we don't know who all those heroes were.


    Quote:
    Tiger God manhandles Logos and fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials.


"Tiger God Manhandles" is an interesting interpretation because the actual text says that it's Black Panther's power, not the Tiger God's, and what Black Panther is doing is an act of will in a realm of metaphor-he's not fighting Logos so much as freeing Chaos, Order, and the In-Betweener from it, and they seem glad to escape. The circumstances make it difficult to quantify this "fight" in battleboard terms. Galactus seems to think what Black Panther does is impossible.


    Quote:
    This firmly reestablishes that Galactus is in skyfather range of power.


Galactus has always been in the high-end skyfather range and only higher when fully fed. You probably mean to diminish Galactus with this statement, but high-end skyfathers are near universal level in power. Dormammu and Umar together, for example, have beaten Eternity. Surtur with the Twilight Sword is a universal threat. Odin's fight with Seth threatened the entire universe.

One interesting fight you didn't mention is that Blue Marvel impressively one-shots Ultimate Hulk.




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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Galactus admits he can't breach the shield around Earth from Secret Empire.



    Quote:
    As I had pointed out, this was already inferred from a previous issue of the Ultimates, so I'm not surprised. Interestingly though, given how effective Blue Marvel, Hyperion, Jane Thor, Spectrum, and Star Brand were against the shield, Marvel has quantified Galactus' power level relative to them. Galactus' limit would indicate he's somewhere around 20-30 times as powerful as an average one of those heroes. Of course there's another instance in which an alternate reality Galactus was downed by over 100 Earth heroes, virtually all of whom perished in the fight. That one is harder to quantify though because we don't know who all those heroes were.


And Quasar is more powerful than Galactus.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Tiger God manhandles Logos and fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials.



    Quote:
    "Tiger God Manhandles" is an interesting interpretation because the actual text says that it's Black Panther's power, not the Tiger God's, and what Black Panther is doing is an act of will in a realm of metaphor-he's not fighting Logos so much as freeing Chaos, Order, and the In-Betweener from it, and they seem glad to escape. The circumstances make it difficult to quantify this "fight" in battleboard terms. Galactus seems to think what Black Panther does is impossible.


Come now, the fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials and free chaos and order.

Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      This firmly reestablishes that Galactus is in skyfather range of power.



    Quote:
    Galactus has always been in the high-end skyfather range and only higher when fully fed. You probably mean to diminish Galactus with this statement, but high-end skyfathers are near universal level in power. Dormammu and Umar together, for example, have beaten Eternity. Surtur with the Twilight Sword is a universal threat. Odin's fight with Seth threatened the entire universe.


Dormammu only defeated Eternity due to shift in cosmic axis and bathing in their blood.

Surtur was never a universal threat.

Seth was only going to destroy the nine realms by destroying Yggdrasil. Anything else was pure silver age alike hyperbole considering the same Seth was destroyed by Bloodaxe wielding Thunderstrike under the same writer.


    Quote:
    One interesting fight you didn't mention is that Blue Marvel impressively one-shots Ultimate Hulk.

And Cap schooled America Chavez.



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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254




So either Tiger God is more powerful than Galactus or Panther's will is?

Lose-lose for Galactus anyway.


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AnthSand


Member Since: Fri Oct 03, 2008
Posts: 549


I never followed Ultimate Hulk, so I am trying to gauge the awesomeness of Blue Marvel's feat. How does Ultimate Hulk compare to regular Bruce Banner Hulk?


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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




    Quote:
    Come now, the fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials and free chaos and order.


Wrong. Black Panther frees Chaos and Order by stretching Logos' face until Chaos and Order can escape.


    Quote:
    Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.


Again, wrong. Black Panther specifically states, "The power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield -- but the power I wield now is my own on this level... combat is metaphor. And I am the king." So Black Panther's power disassembles Logos, not the Tiger God's.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        This firmly reestablishes that Galactus is in skyfather range of power.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Galactus has always been in the high-end skyfather range and only higher when fully fed. You probably mean to diminish Galactus with this statement, but high-end skyfathers are near universal level in power. Dormammu and Umar together, for example, have beaten Eternity. Surtur with the Twilight Sword is a universal threat. Odin's fight with Seth threatened the entire universe.



    Quote:
    Dormammu only defeated Eternity due to shift in cosmic axis and bathing in their blood.


Dormammu also fought Eternity early in his history and showed he was a threat.

    Quote:
    Surtur was never a universal threat.

Wrong.




    Quote:
    Seth was only going to destroy the nine realms by destroying Yggdrasil. Anything else was pure silver age alike hyperbole considering the same Seth was destroyed by Bloodaxe wielding Thunderstrike under the same writer.

It was not hyperbole. The Dark Gods stated that the outcome of Odin's fight with Seth could cause the fall of the universe. Multiple Marvel characters could feel the impact of the battle which was shaking the entire space-time continuum and tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900



    Quote:
    I never followed Ultimate Hulk, so I am trying to gauge the awesomeness of Blue Marvel's feat. How does Ultimate Hulk compare to regular Bruce Banner Hulk?


The Ultimate Universe characters started out much weaker than 616 as Marvel attempted to depict them more in line with what's possible with real world physics. You can see this in the Handbook stats. I didn't regularly read the Ultimate line, so others can correct me if I'm wrong, but my sense is that as the Ultimate characters began interacting more with other universes, particularly 616, the character levels appeared to align more with their 616 counterparts.

The current War Thor, for example, gets his power from the Ultimate Mjolnir, and he appears to be about as powerful as Jane Thor. I don't know if that means the original Ultimate Thor was at the same level as War Thor and thus Jane Thor, but Ultimate Thor was able to knock 616 Galactus through a portal and battlefield remove him. That would have been a fine showing for 616 Thor. In any case, Ultimate Hulk was getting the better of Ultimate Thor when they fought in the first volume of Ultimates, but it's hard to say how much those characters have changed power-wise since. If Ultimate Hulk's power creep is similar to Ultimate Thor's, then Ultimate Hulk should at least approach 616 Hulk in power. For what it's worth, Ultimate Hulk uses the patented Hulk "strongest one there is" line right before Blue Marvel decks him.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




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Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 544


What's going on with The High Evolutionary (I know that he was in the prior issue.)? How many Celestials are left now? I know that The Beyonder killed pretty much all of them pre Secret Wars. Where does The Panther God rank Now? It sounds like he can be a serious contender (This is that Bast cat dude, right?). Is the In-Betweener back (I hope so.)? It sounds a little bit strange that Oblivion wouldn't be involved in this. I will have to check this out. Thanks.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,071



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I never followed Ultimate Hulk, so I am trying to gauge the awesomeness of Blue Marvel's feat. How does Ultimate Hulk compare to regular Bruce Banner Hulk?



    Quote:
    The Ultimate Universe characters started out much weaker than 616 as Marvel attempted to depict them more in line with what's possible with real world physics. You can see this in the Handbook stats. I didn't regularly read the Ultimate line, so others can correct me if I'm wrong, but my sense is that as the Ultimate characters began interacting more with other universes, particularly 616, the character levels appeared to align more with their 616 counterparts.



    Quote:
    The current War Thor, for example, gets his power from the Ultimate Mjolnir, and he appears to be about as powerful as Jane Thor. I don't know if that means the original Ultimate Thor was at the same level as War Thor and thus Jane Thor, but Ultimate Thor was able to knock 616 Galactus through a portal and battlefield remove him. That would have been a fine showing for 616 Thor. In any case, Ultimate Hulk was getting the better of Ultimate Thor when they fought in the first volume of Ultimates, but it's hard to say how much those characters have changed power-wise since. If Ultimate Hulk's power creep is similar to Ultimate Thor's, then Ultimate Hulk should at least approach 616 Hulk in power. For what it's worth, Ultimate Hulk uses the patented Hulk "strongest one there is" line right before Blue Marvel decks him.


You are correct.

Originally Ultimate Thor was pretty powerful for instance but for a fair while he was dependent on a belt for it until that was changed a bit later. Hulk was the most powerful of the Ultimates.

It is impressive but at this point the feat is pretty much downing an alternate reality Hulk. Take that for what you will.




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AnthSand


Member Since: Fri Oct 03, 2008
Posts: 549




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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Come now, the fifth host of celsstials destroy dark celestials and free chaos and order.



    Quote:
    Wrong. Black Panther frees Chaos and Order by stretching Logos' face until Chaos and Order can escape.


That's something you can even read where Eternity says that the infection is gone when the celestials destroy the dark celestials.

But to think Black Panther can do anything to someone stomping Galactus is even more ludicrous.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.



    Quote:
    Again, wrong. Black Panther specifically states, "The power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield -- but the power I wield now is my own on this level... combat is metaphor. And I am the king." So Black Panther's power disassembles Logos, not the Tiger God's.


So are you saying Black Panther is more powerful than Galactus? Because Logos easily defeated Galactus a few issues ago.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          This firmly reestablishes that Galactus is in skyfather range of power.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Galactus has always been in the high-end skyfather range and only higher when fully fed. You probably mean to diminish Galactus with this statement, but high-end skyfathers are near universal level in power. Dormammu and Umar together, for example, have beaten Eternity. Surtur with the Twilight Sword is a universal threat. Odin's fight with Seth threatened the entire universe.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Dormammu only defeated Eternity due to shift in cosmic axis and bathing in their blood.

        Quote:
        Dormammu also fought Eternity early in his history and showed he was a threat.

        That was early Eternity and his powers were ill defined.

        Busiek showed Dormammu less than nothing to Eternity.


          Quote:
          Surtur was never a universal threat.

        Wrong.



    Quote:

He was compared to throwing a match into fuel. When he was destroyed his entire power couldn't even burn continental sized Asgard.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Seth was only going to destroy the nine realms by destroying Yggdrasil. Anything else was pure silver age alike hyperbole considering the same Seth was destroyed by Bloodaxe wielding Thunderstrike under the same writer.

    It was not hyperbole. The Dark Gods stated that the outcome of Odin's fight with Seth could cause the fall of the universe. Multiple Marvel characters could feel the impact of the battle which was shaking the entire space-time continuum and tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.


Yes, it was. If Seth could destroy universe he wouldn't need Yggdrasil to destroy just nine realms who are continental sized.

It was all silver age hyperbole like Defalco was fond of tossing around.



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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254



Posted with Opera 9.80 on Linux
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Not necessarily. The shield had been under near continuous assault for a long time before Quasar attacked it. Galactus would not likely be aware of that and is making his assessment of his power against a fresh shield. Note that Quasar could not breach a fresh shield either when she was tested against it.



    Quote:
    Carol said she had rest and the shield didn't had any issues or shown to be weakened.


You just lost all credibility with that excuse. Carol didn't say anything about the shield not being weakened. It had just been hit by Rocket Raccoon's null bomb! The issue devoted four pages to the null bomb for a reason. Instead you're assuming Quasar doubled in power after being in a coma and the null bomb did zip to the shield.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Wrong. Black Panther frees Chaos and Order by stretching Logos' face until Chaos and Order can escape.



    Quote:
    That's something you can even read where Eternity says that the infection is gone when the celestials destroy the dark celestials.


Nope. Even before the Celestials beat the Dark Celestials, Black Panther is prying open Logos and Chaos notes that he's nearly free. Galactus also observes this and flat out states, "This cannot be and yet if humanity can prevail where primal aspects fail and fall, all things are possible."


    Quote:
    But to think Black Panther can do anything to someone stomping Galactus is even more ludicrous.


It's not ludicrous in the realm of metaphor.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Again, wrong. Black Panther specifically states, "The power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield -- but the power I wield now is my own on this level... combat is metaphor. And I am the king." So Black Panther's power disassembles Logos, not the Tiger God's.



    Quote:
    So are you saying Black Panther is more powerful than Galactus? Because Logos easily defeated Galactus a few issues ago.


In the realm of metaphor where battles are not physical and whose rules are ambiguous, Black Panther can do something that Galactus can't. You want to call what Black Panther did to Logos a fight, but it's not really. Black Panther frees Logos' captive component parts with the equivalent of sneaking up on Logos. What you're doing is reading the issue the way you want it to read as opposed to what is flat-out stated, that T'Challa is using his own power. How can you dispute that? Did Al Ewing write those words randomly according to you?


    Quote:
    That was early Eternity and his powers were ill defined.


It's still canon.


    Quote:
    Busiek showed Dormammu less than nothing to Eternity.


And yet we've seen Dormammu give Eternity a good fight in one instance, and in another, with a tilt of the universal axis, beat Eternity.


    Quote:
    He was compared to throwing a match into fuel. When he was destroyed his entire power couldn't even burn continental sized Asgard.


Nonsense. How can someone who is destroyed do anything?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      It was not hyperbole. The Dark Gods stated that the outcome of Odin's fight with Seth could cause the fall of the universe. Multiple Marvel characters could feel the impact of the battle which was shaking the entire space-time continuum and tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.



    Quote:
    Yes, it was. If Seth could destroy universe he wouldn't need Yggdrasil to destroy just nine realms who are continental sized.


First, each of the Nine Realms is its own dimension, not just a continent. Sheesh. Midgard is one of the Nine Realms and it comprises an entire universe made up of billions of galaxies. Second, Seth was causing the shaking and tearing of the multiverse only with Odin's power on top of his. As Odin won, his power was actually greater.


    Quote:
    It was all silver age hyperbole like Defalco was fond of tossing around.


Third, you obviously don't understand what hyperbole is. Depicting all these characters stating what they are actually observing is not hyperbole. So you're saying the Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, the Dark Gods, and Jean Grey were all lying.



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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254





    Quote:
    You just lost all credibility with that excuse. Carol didn't say anything about the shield not being weakened. It had just been hit by Rocket Raccoon's null bomb! The issue devoted four pages to the null bomb for a reason. Instead you're assuming Quasar doubled in power after being in a coma and the null bomb did zip to the shield.


Double negatives don't make a positive. There is no mention of the shield being weakened when Spencer went out of his way to let the readers know that the shield was still at full power.

Carol explained that she had a rest and that's the reason she destroyed the shield. Not that the shield was weakened.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Wrong. Black Panther frees Chaos and Order by stretching Logos' face until Chaos and Order can escape.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        That's something you can even read where Eternity says that the infection is gone when the celestials destroy the dark celestials.



    Quote:
    Nope. Even before the Celestials beat the Dark Celestials, Black Panther is prying open Logos and Chaos notes that he's nearly free. Galactus also observes this and flat out states, "This cannot be and yet if humanity can prevail where primal aspects fail and fall, all things are possible."


Nearly free doesn't means that they were freed. Only when the dark celestials were destroyed they were freed.

But that's besides the point. Galactus got punked. Like usual.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      But to think Black Panther can do anything to someone stomping Galactus is even more ludicrous.



    Quote:
    It's not ludicrous in the realm of metaphor.


Yes, it is.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:
          Again, wrong. Black Panther specifically states, "The power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield -- but the power I wield now is my own on this level... combat is metaphor. And I am the king." So Black Panther's power disassembles Logos, not the Tiger God's.

        Quote:

          Quote:
          So are you saying Black Panther is more powerful than Galactus? Because Logos easily defeated Galactus a few issues ago.



    Quote:
    In the realm of metaphor where battles are not physical and whose rules are ambiguous, Black Panther can do something that Galactus can't. You want to call what Black Panther did to Logos a fight, but it's not really. Black Panther frees Logos' captive component parts with the equivalent of sneaking up on Logos. What you're doing is reading the issue the way you want it to read as opposed to what is flat-out stated, that T'Challa is using his own power. How can you dispute that? Did Al Ewing write those words randomly according to you?


So Black Panther straight up manhandles Logos but did so by sneak attacks?

You're not even consistent among your excuses.

But do let us know how black panther is more powerful than Galactus.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      That was early Eternity and his powers were ill defined.



    Quote:
    It's still canon.


Retconned by Busiek.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Busiek showed Dormammu less than nothing to Eternity.



    Quote:
    And yet we've seen Dormammu give Eternity a good fight in one instance, and in another, with a tilt of the universal axis, beat Eternity.


Dormammu was less than nothing to Eternity. He was only able to usurp Eternity by bathing in its blood and gaining power.

The first instance in Strange Tales is retconned.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      He was compared to throwing a match into fuel. When he was destroyed his entire power couldn't even burn continental sized Asgard.



    Quote:
    Nonsense. How can someone who is destroyed do anything?


His energy wasn't destroyed. It was just shunted to Asgard by Odin.

Did you even read the story?


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It was not hyperbole. The Dark Gods stated that the outcome of Odin's fight with Seth could cause the fall of the universe. Multiple Marvel characters could feel the impact of the battle which was shaking the entire space-time continuum and tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Yes, it was. If Seth could destroy universe he wouldn't need Yggdrasil to destroy just nine realms who are continental sized.



    Quote:
    First, each of the Nine Realms is its own dimension, not just a continent.


It has been Reiterated several times that the whole realms are just continental level. Blame marvel.
    Quote:


    Sheesh. Midgard is one of the Nine Realms and it comprises an entire universe made up of billions of galaxies.

Midgard means only Earth. Not Earth's universe.
    Quote:



    Second, Seth was causing the shaking and tearing of the multiverse only with Odin's power on top of his. As Odin won, his power was actually greater.


That's one of the hyperboles. Nothing was shown about anything about multiverse.

Even Korvac and Starhawk were said to do so by exact same characters.
    Quote:



      Quote:

        Quote:
        It was all silver age hyperbole like Defalco was fond of tossing around.



      Quote:
      Third, you obviously don't understand what hyperbole is. Depicting all these characters stating what they are actually observing is not hyperbole. So you're saying the Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, the Dark Gods, and Jean Grey were all lying.


    They were not lying. Just exaggerated notion of the damage caused. Just like in Silver age and not to be taken seriously.

    Seth couldn't even beat Thunderstrike with bloodaxe who destroyed him. Odin struggling with him isn't a high showing for Odin.




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motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254



Posted with Opera 9.80 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




    Quote:
    Double negatives don't make a positive. There is no mention of the shield being weakened when Spencer went out of his way to let the readers know that the shield was still at full power.


Spencer did not write anything in the comic that states the shield is still at full power after the null bomb. You just made that up like you do all the time on this board.


    Quote:
    Carol explained that she had a rest and that's the reason she destroyed the shield. Not that the shield was weakened.


So anyone who has some rest can double their maximum power? Nice try.


    Quote:
    Nearly free doesn't means that they were freed. Only when the dark celestials were destroyed they were freed.


Correlation is not causation. I address this in another post in this thread.


    Quote:
    But that's besides the point. Galactus got punked. Like usual.


Galactus got punked by the equivalent of the Living Tribunal. Real surprise. I'm sure you just thrilled.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        But to think Black Panther can do anything to someone stomping Galactus is even more ludicrous.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It's not ludicrous in the realm of metaphor.



    Quote:
    Yes, it is.


You think that because you can't comprehend what Ewing is trying to do in the comic.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.

        Quote:

          Quote:

            Quote:
            Again, wrong. Black Panther specifically states, "The power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield -- but the power I wield now is my own on this level... combat is metaphor. And I am the king." So Black Panther's power disassembles Logos, not the Tiger God's.

          Quote:

            Quote:
            So are you saying Black Panther is more powerful than Galactus? Because Logos easily defeated Galactus a few issues ago.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        In the realm of metaphor where battles are not physical and whose rules are ambiguous, Black Panther can do something that Galactus can't. You want to call what Black Panther did to Logos a fight, but it's not really. Black Panther frees Logos' captive component parts with the equivalent of sneaking up on Logos. What you're doing is reading the issue the way you want it to read as opposed to what is flat-out stated, that T'Challa is using his own power. How can you dispute that? Did Al Ewing write those words randomly according to you?



    Quote:
    So Black Panther straight up manhandles Logos but did so by sneak attacks?



    Quote:
    You're not even consistent among your excuses.



    Quote:
    But do let us know how black panther is more powerful than Galactus.


You apparently didn't understand any of what I wrote.


    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Busiek showed Dormammu less than nothing to Eternity.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        And yet we've seen Dormammu give Eternity a good fight in one instance, and in another, with a tilt of the universal axis, beat Eternity.



    Quote:
    Dormammu was less than nothing to Eternity. He was only able to usurp Eternity by bathing in its blood and gaining power.


Nope. Dormammu simply stated that the cosmic axis tilting enabled him and Umar's powers to combine and together they beat Eternity. Also, if Dormammu were less than nothing to Eternity, than why did Eternity need Dormammu's help to beat Zom? Zom points out that Dormammu was instrumental in his loss.


    Quote:
    His energy wasn't destroyed. It was just shunted to Asgard by Odin.



    Quote:
    Did you even read the story?


I don't know which story you're referring to, but I'm just going by your logic, which makes no sense. Obviously Odin is not going to shunt energy to Asgard in a way that would destroy Asgard.


    Quote:
    It has been Reiterated several times that the whole realms are just continental level. Blame marvel.


No, I blame you for misunderstanding. Each of the Nine Realms is its own dimensional plane. It's not called the Nine Continents.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Third, you obviously don't understand what hyperbole is. Depicting all these characters stating what they are actually observing is not hyperbole. So you're saying the Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, the Dark Gods, and Jean Grey were all lying.



    Quote:
    They were not lying. Just exaggerated notion of the damage caused. Just like in Silver age and not to be taken seriously.


Or more precisely, you have designated yourself arbiter of what is and isn't valid in comics based on nothing more than your personal desires. It doesn't work that way. This is not a Silver Age comic. What the characters observe are pretty specific. The only reason you dismiss it is because it goes against your argument.


    Quote:
    Seth couldn't even beat Thunderstrike with bloodaxe who destroyed him. Odin struggling with him isn't a high showing for Odin.


Are you deliberately lying now or are you that confused? Seth is a death god. His normal power level is theoretically around Pluto's and Hela's though in actual showings, it's probably a bit less. So first, Seth at his normal power level isn't close to Odin. That's the version Thunderstrike beat here. Second, Thunderstrike was much empowered by the Bloodaxe here, enough that he gave Thor a tough fight in the very next issue. Third, Seth was powered up when he fought Odin. So this example is misleading on every level.




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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254


    Quote:

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      Double negatives don't make a positive. There is no mention of the shield being weakened when Spencer went out of his way to let the readers know that the shield was still at full power.



    Quote:
    Spencer did not write anything in the comic that states the shield is still at full power after the null bomb. You just made that up like you do all the time on this board.


When the shield was weakened he stated it pretty clearly previously. Here it wasn't shown, Ergo the shield wasn't weakened.

I don't have to prove a negative.


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      Carol explained that she had a rest and that's the reason she destroyed the shield. Not that the shield was weakened.



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    So anyone who has some rest can double their maximum power? Nice try.


According to the comic, apparently yes.

I don't have to convince you to prove it.


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      Nearly free doesn't means that they were freed. Only when the dark celestials were destroyed they were freed.



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    Correlation is not causation. I address this in another post in this thread.


We'll see.


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      But that's besides the point. Galactus got punked. Like usual.



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    Galactus got punked by the equivalent of the Living Tribunal. Real surprise. I'm sure you just thrilled.


So Tiger God or Black Panther are above LT?


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          But to think Black Panther can do anything to someone stomping Galactus is even more ludicrous.

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          It's not ludicrous in the realm of metaphor.

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        Yes, it is.



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    You think that because you can't comprehend what Ewing is trying to do in the comic.


Of course. Only marvel fans can do so.

/sarcasm


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    Tiger God is the one who is shown beating Logos.

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        Again, wrong. Black Panther specifically states, "The power of the Tiger God allowed me to ascend to this plane -- a guide and shield -- but the power I wield now is my own on this level... combat is metaphor. And I am the king." So Black Panther's power disassembles Logos, not the Tiger God's.

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        So are you saying Black Panther is more powerful than Galactus? Because Logos easily defeated Galactus a few issues ago.

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      In the realm of metaphor where battles are not physical and whose rules are ambiguous, Black Panther can do something that Galactus can't. You want to call what Black Panther did to Logos a fight, but it's not really. Black Panther frees Logos' captive component parts with the equivalent of sneaking up on Logos. What you're doing is reading the issue the way you want it to read as opposed to what is flat-out stated, that T'Challa is using his own power. How can you dispute that? Did Al Ewing write those words randomly according to you?

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      So Black Panther straight up manhandles Logos but did so by sneak attacks?

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        You're not even consistent among your excuses.

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          But do let us know how black panther is more powerful than Galactus.



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          You apparently didn't understand any of what I wrote.


        It was incomprehensible from such a genius.

        /s


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            Busiek showed Dormammu less than nothing to Eternity.

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            And yet we've seen Dormammu give Eternity a good fight in one instance, and in another, with a tilt of the universal axis, beat Eternity.

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          Dormammu was less than nothing to Eternity. He was only able to usurp Eternity by bathing in its blood and gaining power.



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          Nope. Dormammu simply stated that the cosmic axis tilting enabled him and Umar's powers to combine and together they beat Eternity. Also, if Dormammu were less than nothing to Eternity, than why did Eternity need Dormammu's help to beat Zom? Zom points out that Dormammu was instrumental in his loss.


        You're combining two different comics.

        Busiek showed that Dormammu was nothing to Eternity. Dormammu and Umar were only able to beat him due to bathing in his blood.

        Zom instance is decades before that and far less relevant.


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          His energy wasn't destroyed. It was just shunted to Asgard by Odin.

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          Did you even read the story?


        Yes, did you?


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          I don't know which story you're referring to, but I'm just going by your logic, which makes no sense. Obviously Odin is not going to shunt energy to Asgard in a way that would destroy Asgard.


        He just shunted the energy to empty Asgard. Nothing more.




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          It has been Reiterated several times that the whole realms are just continental level. Blame marvel.



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          No, I blame you for misunderstanding. Each of the Nine Realms is its own dimensional plane. It's not called the Nine Continents.


        Yes, pocket dimensions. Not whole universes.


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          Third, you obviously don't understand what hyperbole is. Depicting all these characters stating what they are actually observing is not hyperbole. So you're saying the Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, the Dark Gods, and Jean Grey were all lying.

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          They were not lying. Just exaggerated notion of the damage caused. Just like in Silver age and not to be taken seriously.



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          Or more precisely, you have designated yourself arbiter of what is and isn't valid in comics based on nothing more than your personal desires. It doesn't work that way. This is not a Silver Age comic. What the characters observe are pretty specific. The only reason you dismiss it is because it goes against your argument.


        No, I haven't. I just know writer inconsistency and hyperbole when I see it.

        If Seth was multiversal or even universal he wouldn't need Yggdrasil to destroy nine realms or struggle against Loki.


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          Seth couldn't even beat Thunderstrike with bloodaxe who destroyed him. Odin struggling with him isn't a high showing for Odin.



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          Are you deliberately lying now or are you that confused? Seth is a death god. His normal power level is theoretically around Pluto's and Hela's though in actual showings, it's probably a bit less. So first, Seth at his normal power level isn't close to Odin. That's the version Thunderstrike beat here. Second, Thunderstrike was much empowered by the Bloodaxe here, enough that he gave Thor a tough fight in the very next issue. Third, Seth was powered up when he fought Odin. So this example is misleading on every level.


        Seth wasn't powered up against Odin.

        Wow, Thor level? That must be multiversal level, huh?

        Can you show us where Seth was shown to be amped against Odin?



    Posted with Opera 9.80 on Windows 7
motifian


Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 254


    Quote:

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      Exactly, they weren't freed until the dark celestials were destroyed and the infection in Order was destroyed.



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      Sigh. Correlation is not causation. The comic plainly shows you the cause. Black Panther freed Chaos, Order, and the In-Betweener and you can see him doing it even before the Dark Celestials go down.


    No, he didn't. Simple as that. They were freed when the infection from dark celestials was destroyed.


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      But I like how Panther announcing himself before attacking is a sneak attack.



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      You hear his voice but you don't see where he's coming from, and the panel clearly showing Panther attacking Logos from behind.


    That's Tiger God, not Panther.


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      And its as much physical as metaphysical considering Galactus was physically poisoned by Logos.

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        Not metaphysical, metaphorical. There is a big difference. Remember, the writer is The One Above All in Marvel. It's no coincidence that the comic opens with The One Above All. The writer is making a statement here.

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        You are just making one leap of logic from another.



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        I can't help it if you don't know the difference between metaphysics and metaphor.


      Help yourself first.


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        Logos defeated Galactus. You can't make excuses for that.



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        Logos should defeat Galactus. I never said otherwise.


      Should Panther?


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        Logos never even gets a chance to attack Panther, so I'm not sure how much of a fight this even is. Third, in a battle of pure will, not power, I can see Black Panther's exceeding Galactus'. There aren't many characters with the strength of will that T'Challa has. It's not a disgrace for Galactus. Don't let your anti-Galactus agenda blind you to the specifics of the story.

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        This is a laughable excuse for Galactus poor showing.

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      Not as laughable as your attempt to dismiss it without any explanation.

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      There is nothing to explain. Galactus got punked just like usual.



      Quote:
      See, this statement lays it all out. This isn't about you trying to be right. It's just you expressing your disdain for a character and whatever reasons you can come up for it, actual evidence be damned, you'll grasp at those straws.


    Nope, I tell what I see. I'm not the one grasping straws of how Black Panther defeating Logos isn't a bad showing for Galactus.



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PT


Member Since: Tue Dec 29, 2009
Posts: 33



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zvelf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,900




    Quote:
    When the shield was weakened he stated it pretty clearly previously. Here it wasn't shown, Ergo the shield wasn't weakened.


Wow! That's all you got? I'm flabbergasted at your lack of understanding of what went on in the comic. So Spencer devotes four pages on Rocket developing this ultra-powerful null bomb, and your conclusion is that it does absolutely nothing to the shield. We saw that five heroes could blast the shield and bring it down by 7%, but the null bomb does nothing? Okay, but like I said, you have no credibility after this.


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      So anyone who has some rest can double their maximum power? Nice try.



    Quote:
    According to the comic, apparently yes.



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    I don't have to convince you to prove it.


See, this just goes to show that you pick and choose your evidence. Carol says something and you want to believe it's true so it's true to you. When Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, and Jean Grey say something about their direct observations, you dismiss it as hyperbole even though absolutely nothing in the issue indicates that is so and everything in the issue supports their statements as literal. In Secret Empire, Carol's statement clearly makes no sense, but you want to believe it, while the issues presents a perfectly reasonable explanation for how Quasar got through the shield when Quasar couldn't even get close before - a gigantic null bomb hit the shield just moments before!


    Quote:

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      Galactus got punked by the equivalent of the Living Tribunal. Real surprise. I'm sure you just thrilled.



    Quote:
    So Tiger God or Black Panther are above LT?


No. I didn't want to have to spell it out for you because I wanted people to read the issue and understand it on their own. There is pleasure from figuring out Ewings' riddles. But clearly you can't. So the issue opens with narration by The One Above All. If you've read other appearances by TOAA in Marvel Comics like Fantastic Four #511 or the Eternals series, you'll realize that Marvel writers use TOAA as a metaphor for themselves. On more than one occasion, TOAA has taken the appearance of Jack Kirby just in case you didn't get the metaphor. Of course it makes perfect sense that the writers are TOAA because they are all powerful in making their fictional world adhere to anything they want it to. So what does TOAA say here? "I see through many eyes. I build with MANY HANDS. They are themselves, but THEY ARE ALSO ME. I AM ALL-POWERFUL. My only weapon is love. The mystery intrigues me." Note where I put the emphasis. So Black Panther grabs Logos and pulls Logos apart and frees its component entities. At this moment, Galactus states, "This cannot be and yet if humanity can prevail where primal aspects fail and fall, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE." So how can Black Panther do something that Galactus can't? Because "all things are possible" in this world of fiction. It's the nature of fiction, but especially when this fiction is controlled by an all-powerful One Above All, one who builds "with many hands," in this case Black Panther's. "They are also me." TOAA is Black Panther here. "I am all-powerful," hence "all things are possible." Get it now? Just like you seem to want to ignore the null bomb entirely, you seem to want to read this issue and avoid the implications of the very first page, which is there for a very good reason.




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Rehzon


Location: Red Forest, Chernobyl
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,588



hffh



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