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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,430


Who is more powerful?


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Bird-Man of Akah Ma'at


Location: Madripoor
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,634


I think Karnilla wins unless they fight in Hel. Karnilla would lose against Hela and her armies.




"I am made of things your philosophy will never comprehend." -Loki
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558



    Quote:
    I think Karnilla wins unless they fight in Hel. Karnilla would lose against Hela and her armies.


Afraid I strongly disagree. Karnilla tops out at Loki level. Hela would destroy Karnilla, even outside of Hel.

Hela is one of the major powers of the Nine Worlds, alongside Surtur, Odin, Ymir, etc. Karnilla is a powerful sorceress, but is nowhere near Hela's equal. Mephisto considers her a close rival.

Hela is at least a whole tier above Karnilla, possibly two tiers.




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Bird-Man of Akah Ma'at


Location: Madripoor
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,634





"I am made of things your philosophy will never comprehend." -Loki
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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558


Problem with your examples, which I could address one-by-one, is that Karnilla has battled Loki and Amora separately. Karnilla fled from Loki in the Destroyer incident you referenced. And on that note, Karnilla's attack itself was a spirit-based attack -- which strikes at the Destroyer's one Achilles heel.

And while it's true that Karnilla has done some impressive things -- from creating the Wrecker, to empowering Durok, even Amora has rivaled her with the creation of the Bloodaxe. Welcome to Asgardian magic.

Karnilla was only able to 'mind-wipe' the Asgardians by having Kid Loki fetch various artifacts to enhance her spells -- and then only with the aided power of Kelda (IIRC). Loki was able to lift Mjolnir by adding Karnilla's power to his own. The Silver Surfer and Ulik have both no-sold Karnilla's attacks.


    Quote:
    I think there’s a contest. Especially outside Hela’s realm. There’s also Hela’s cloak weakness if Karnilla needs to resort to it.


Hela is on a whole other level. And good luck on Karnilla in trying to snatch Hela's cloak.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    Who is more powerful?


I would say Hela is more powerful. But Karnilla is craftier. Karnilla would win if she had the time to plan out a strategy. I imagine Karnilla has defeated foes more powerful than herself by working smarter not harder.





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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558



    Quote:


      Quote:
      Who is more powerful?



    Quote:
    I would say Hela is more powerful. But Karnilla is craftier. Karnilla would win if she had the time to plan out a strategy. I imagine Karnilla has defeated foes more powerful than herself by working smarter not harder.


I wouldn't even say Karnilla's craftier, and certainly isn't smarter. By virtue of Hela's cosmic station, she has greater intellectual resources. Karnilla generally operates on a much lower intellectual level, on the level of maybe Amora in terms of scheming.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

      Quote:


        Quote:
        Who is more powerful?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I would say Hela is more powerful. But Karnilla is craftier. Karnilla would win if she had the time to plan out a strategy. I imagine Karnilla has defeated foes more powerful than herself by working smarter not harder.



    Quote:
    I wouldn't even say Karnilla's craftier, and certainly isn't smarter. By virtue of Hela's cosmic station, she has greater intellectual resources. Karnilla generally operates on a much lower intellectual level, on the level of maybe Amora in terms of scheming.


That's just assuming Hela is smarter because she has the cushier job.

Like what did Hela do to EARN that position? I imagine Karnilla has had to work to become queen of nornheim and didn't just inherit a title. And she certainly wasn't given a cushy death god job because her father was raised by Odin king of the Aesir.

Hela is self important because she lucked into the role she was cast in. Karnilla's had to do the hard work to pull her schemes off. To me Karnilla is a self made woman and Hela got where she is because of cosmic nepotism.





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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558



    Quote:
    That's just assuming Hela is smarter because she has the cushier job.


It doesn't really matter if she earned the job or not. By the nature of Hela's station, the nature of her power -- being effectively bonded with Hel -- she has an advanced intellect. Power of her level comes with a vast degree of cosmic awareness and other knowledge-based resources.


    Quote:
    Hela is self important because she lucked into the role she was cast in. Karnilla's had to do the hard work to pull her schemes off. To me Karnilla is a self made woman and Hela got where she is because of cosmic nepotism.


Not really going to argue with nepotism or how she 'lucked' into her role as Death Goddess. It's an irrelevant factor. Pluto drew lots with Zeus and Neptune for his dominion of Hades. Odin inherited rule. Meanwhile, most cosmic beings are born to their power and station (Galactus being an accident / pact with the previous universe).

I'm not arguing that Hela is particularly crafty (compared to Loki), but what exactly has Karnilla ever done in the way of scheming? She's mostly been a player in Loki's schemes.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,924



    Quote:

      Quote:
      That's just assuming Hela is smarter because she has the cushier job.



    Quote:
    It doesn't really matter if she earned the job or not. By the nature of Hela's station, the nature of her power -- being effectively bonded with Hel -- she has an advanced intellect. Power of her level comes with a vast degree of cosmic awareness and other knowledge-based resources.


Really, particularly in magic, one comes from the other. It does become hard to tell what comes from what. Most beings like that have extensive knowledge in their purview if not beyond.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Hela is self important because she lucked into the role she was cast in. Karnilla's had to do the hard work to pull her schemes off. To me Karnilla is a self made woman and Hela got where she is because of cosmic nepotism.



    Quote:
    Not really going to argue with nepotism or how she 'lucked' into her role as Death Goddess. It's an irrelevant factor. Pluto drew lots with Zeus and Neptune for his dominion of Hades. Odin inherited rule. Meanwhile, most cosmic beings are born to their power and station (Galactus being an accident / pact with the previous universe).



    Quote:
    I'm not arguing that Hela is particularly crafty (compared to Loki), but what exactly has Karnilla ever done in the way of scheming? She's mostly been a player in Loki's schemes.







Look Raist bunnies...
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,924



    Quote:


      Quote:

        Quote:


          Quote:
          Who is more powerful?

        Quote:

          Quote:
          I would say Hela is more powerful. But Karnilla is craftier. Karnilla would win if she had the time to plan out a strategy. I imagine Karnilla has defeated foes more powerful than herself by working smarter not harder.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I wouldn't even say Karnilla's craftier, and certainly isn't smarter. By virtue of Hela's cosmic station, she has greater intellectual resources. Karnilla generally operates on a much lower intellectual level, on the level of maybe Amora in terms of scheming.



    Quote:
    That's just assuming Hela is smarter because she has the cushier job.



    Quote:
    Like what did Hela do to EARN that position? I imagine Karnilla has had to work to become queen of nornheim and didn't just inherit a title. And she certainly wasn't given a cushy death god job because her father was raised by Odin king of the Aesir.



    Quote:
    Hela is self important because she lucked into the role she was cast in. Karnilla's had to do the hard work to pull her schemes off. To me Karnilla is a self made woman and Hela got where she is because of cosmic nepotism.


Being born a half-corpse and being mocked by everyone, eventually going to the land of the dead and ruling there is lucking out?

The comic version differs a bit. But one could make that case for any god. They lucked out and came into being a god and have power because of it. Who cares? It is an explanation for power.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689





    Quote:
    Being born a half-corpse and being mocked by everyone, eventually going to the land of the dead and ruling there is lucking out?


It's a leadership position in a growth industry and she had no work experience. How is it not lucking out?


    Quote:
    The comic version differs a bit. But one could make that case for any god. They lucked out and came into being a god and have power because of it. Who cares? It is an explanation for power.


It matters because we're saying who has a better chance of winning. Someone who fought for every scrap of power they ever had (Karnilla) or someone who never worked for anything and was handed it (Hela). I'm going to say Karnilla because she wants it more. She has guile.







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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:

      Quote:
      That's just assuming Hela is smarter because she has the cushier job.



    Quote:
    It doesn't really matter if she earned the job or not. By the nature of Hela's station, the nature of her power -- being effectively bonded with Hel -- she has an advanced intellect. Power of her level comes with a vast degree of cosmic awareness and other knowledge-based resources.


I'm going to argue this for a number of reasons.

1. Are death gods particularly smart? I mean does Mephisto come off as much smarter than typical super villains? Not really. He's still a jobber.

2. Does Hela even meet the requirements of BEING a goddess? She is not an Aesir. As I understand it her parents going by the myths are Loki (a Jotun) and Angrboda (another Jotun). She is not descended from Buri. She had no god blood. She is the child of frost giants.

3. Has Hela shown she is super intelligent in any way?

4. She was just given the power. Karnilla had to work for her sorcery.







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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        That's just assuming Hela is smarter because she has the cushier job.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It doesn't really matter if she earned the job or not. By the nature of Hela's station, the nature of her power -- being effectively bonded with Hel -- she has an advanced intellect. Power of her level comes with a vast degree of cosmic awareness and other knowledge-based resources.



    Quote:
    Really, particularly in magic, one comes from the other. It does become hard to tell what comes from what. Most beings like that have extensive knowledge in their purview if not beyond.


I would say Hela occupies that grey area where power and knowledge overlap. The limits of Hela's power and 'cosmic awareness' are a bit vague. But just as the Grandmaster (with his vast computational cosmic brain) can be outwitted by Hawkeye, Hela occasionally suffers from the limits of a human imagination.

Hela's gambit with Infinity/Odin was probably her most ambitious intellectual 'scheme'. Hela was the brains behind Infinity, and the whole point of absorbing large sections of the universe was to expand Hela's domain. In this story, she was depicted as being an omnipresent force in space/time that Thor was powerless to fight or elude. More on the entity spectrum than sorceress spectrum.


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558



    Quote:
    1. Are death gods particularly smart? I mean does Mephisto come off as much smarter than typical super villains? Not really. He's still a jobber.


If we are assuming that all death-gods are alike in intellect, that is a bonus for my position. Seth has a super-genius intellect, is a master of genetic engineering, and employs some of the most advanced magic-science in the multiverse. Worldengine, a scientific attack on the World Tree, was brokered by Seth.

The difference is that Seth is ambitious and uses his resources to that bend, whereas Hela is largely content in her station.


    Quote:
    2. Does Hela even meet the requirements of BEING a goddess? She is not an Aesir. As I understand it her parents going by the myths are Loki (a Jotun) and Angrboda (another Jotun). She is not descended from Buri. She had no god blood. She is the child of frost giants.


It's basically meaningless trying to split hairs between Jotunn and god, due to their shared lineage. Bor was born a half-Jotunn. Odin himself has the blood of Jotunn (his mother was a Jotunn). Ymir and Buri, the first god, sprung from the same environment in Asgardian cosmology. Thor is 2/3rds Jotunn when you consider that Jord (Gaea) is considered a Jotunn.


    Quote:
    3. Has Hela shown she is super intelligent in any way?


She has shown the awareness of being who controls an entire death-realm. The ability to see through illusion, bend time and space, and pluck Thor out of the time-stream with casual effort (in effect, cosmic awareness).

If the contention is that Karnilla is smarter, you're also going to have to provide evidence to that end. Rather than assumption that Karnilla is self-made.


    Quote:
    4. She was just given the power. Karnilla had to work for her sorcery.


Okay. What does that prove? And we really don't know what Karnilla did for her sorcery. She is connected to the Fates in some way. Is that how she lucked out on her power? And she could have stolen that knowledge and absorbed the power of whoever taught her. After all, Loki did.


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123


Member Since: Fri Jul 21, 2017
Posts: 114


Check the Marvel database.

The three Asgardian Goddesses of Fate, the Norns, warned the Odin that Hela would prove to be a great danger to him and all of Asgard.

Odin appointed her Goddess of Death to give her her own realm to rule and to get her out of Asgard.


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The Nephilim





    Quote:
    Problem with your examples, which I could address one-by-one, is that Karnilla has battled Loki and Amora separately. Karnilla fled from Loki in the Destroyer incident you referenced. And on that note, Karnilla's attack itself was a spirit-based attack -- which strikes at the Destroyer's one Achilles heel.

Hela was also frightened by the Destroyer when animated by Thor. I’m not sure I’m understanding your point here. 


    Quote:
    And while it's true that Karnilla has done some impressive things -- from creating the Wrecker, to empowering Durok, even Amora has rivaled her with the creation of the Bloodaxe. Welcome to Asgardian magic.

Let’s not forget the time she drained Masterson of his powers.. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KsaIM9Hjcvo/VnqMCTHRtSI/AAAAAAAAd3c/DZF7vCDSXb4/s1600-Ic42/RCO013.jpg


    Quote:
    Karnilla was only able to 'mind-wipe' the Asgardians by having Kid Loki fetch various artifacts to enhance her spells -- and then only with the aided power of Kelda (IIRC). Loki was able to lift Mjolnir by adding Karnilla's power to his own. The Silver Surfer and Ulik have both no-sold Karnilla's attacks.

As for Ulik, if you’re referring to Thor 151, Ulik had been enchanted to resist Karnilla’s blast. As for the Surfer, seemed like he felt it this time: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/LqQgkNPeu0wShWYx54KlwpFAdfTEt9mcpKcmN8xpDipw-e7k3KST90tHmn0dVPjX13wZtw-w_HN8=s1600

Still an impressive display overcoming the worthy enchantment on Mjolnir. I just don’t see Hela performing these spells. I don’t think Hela’s station as a death goddess grants her a superior mystical prowess over high powered mystics like Karnilla. She probably rules supreme within her realm but outside, I believe she has her boundaries. She has a job to do and no one does it better. But that’s about it, it doesn’t make her proficient in every department. She has been defeated by Thor, the Disir, and Darwin (which was weird) off the top of my head. 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D-q44q3p590/WfklmR2OrTI/AAAAAAAAHIA/AEhGesTkOVgSH2ldX4nBG4eSirN1wN7FACHMYCw/s1600/RCO010.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xBhN3lNErP8/WfklmomN46I/AAAAAAAAHIE/1cD4oV1U_LonWgQN_xkwfO-JUH0o_XSWwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO011.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QqG66APfsKg/WfklmtT2hNI/AAAAAAAAHII/5-hfv7ywz1I3TrOSUbMRoE06geMUM7wVQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO012.jpg


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think there’s a contest. Especially outside Hela’s realm. There’s also Hela’s cloak weakness if Karnilla needs to resort to it.


    Quote:
    Hela is on a whole other level. And good luck on Karnilla in trying to snatch Hela's cloak.

Karnilla is pretty crafty. I’m sure she could “pull it off”. 




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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 2,558



    Quote:
    Hela was also frightened by the Destroyer when animated by Thor. I’m not sure I’m understanding your point here.


The point is that Karnilla's attack was spirit based (the only way she could even remotely budge the Destroyer). She can't beat the Destroyer, or even come close on the best day of her life. The example you chose was irrelevant to Karnilla's formidability.

Karnilla just tried to fight the Destroyer with like a dozen other people, and failed.


    Quote:
    Let’s not forget the time she drained Masterson of his powers.


But you act like she just snapped her fingers. She is not powerful enough to do this. She plotted with Loki to achieve these results.


    Quote:
    As for Ulik, if you’re referring to Thor 151, Ulik had been enchanted to resist Karnilla’s blast.


Okay, but how powerful can Karnilla be if she can be nullified with troll-magic and made helpless as a result?




Was the Surfer even at full power here? He had just been de-heralded by Galactus. He was without his silver skin just issues prior. And the latter example doesn't negate the former.


    Quote:
    Still an impressive display overcoming the worthy enchantment on Mjolnir.


Sure, but even Loki at that point was an even match for Thor.


    Quote:
    I just don’t see Hela performing these spells.


And I don't see Karnilla coming close to beating Hela on the best day of her life. She's not in her league.


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Poltargyst


Member Since: Sat Nov 29, 2008
Posts: 3,564




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